# Would I notice the difference?



## tuxify

I am currently using the onboard sound on my Gigabyte P35-DS3L (Realtek ALC888). I got these really nice studio headphones (ATH-A700s) but I don't think I'm getting the most out of them because I'm using onboard sound.
I'm thinking of getting a sound card, and the only brand I've heard anything about is Creative Sound Blaster.
I found THIS card, which I wouldn't mind getting if it was going to greatly impact my sound quality.
What would be the difference between getting the above $25 card instead of getting a $100 Creative SB card?
And will I really notice a difference (a $25+ difference) if I got this card over just using onboard sound?
Thanks.


----------



## cohen

Great card there, i have that and i have the logitech X 540's and i love it, and it sounds a lot better than the onboard.

i say get it, and i don't think you'll really know the difference with the higher one.


----------



## tuxify

I figure $25 isn't much, and if I don't get that much sound quality, it's not a big deal. I guess I'll order it.


----------



## Ramodkk

I'd say that almost any dedicated sound card would give you a better sound than on-board.


----------



## diduknowthat

The onboard sound is horrible for that board. However, that sound card isn't particularly great either. I would say either fork out for a better one or save up some money for it. That sound card is more for people who want more channels that their onboard sound has.


----------



## StrangleHold

Uhnless you have onboard sound with a old motherboard. The Audigy SE is a pretty low end sound card. I would say the onboard Realtek ALC888 is equal to or better.


----------



## tuxify

Something like This?

I'm only posting Creative stuff because it's the only brand I've heard of. I really don't feel like spending more than $60 on a soundcard.


----------



## diduknowthat

tuxify said:


> Something like This?
> 
> I'm only posting Creative stuff because it's the only brand I've heard of. I really don't feel like spending more than $60 on a soundcard.



That _is_ basically a Audigy SE, just renamed and bundled with different software. Even more of a ripoff .


----------



## realmike15

tuxify said:


> I am currently using the onboard sound on my Gigabyte P35-DS3L (Realtek ALC888). I got these really nice studio headphones (ATH-A700s) but I don't think I'm getting the most out of them because I'm using onboard sound.
> I'm thinking of getting a sound card, and the only brand I've heard anything about is Creative Sound Blaster.
> I found THIS card, which I wouldn't mind getting if it was going to greatly impact my sound quality.
> What would be the difference between getting the above $25 card instead of getting a $100 Creative SB card?
> And will I really notice a difference (a $25+ difference) if I got this card over just using onboard sound?
> Thanks.



to be perfectly honest... realtek onboard audio is just as good as the best creative card.  creative cards are more of a marketing gimmic then anything else.  the only thing those cards really offer, is the game decoding technology (ex: EAX).

if you want a card that actually plays 2-channel music with real claritiy, get an audio editing card...

m-audio makes nice stuff
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829121008'

again dont waste your money on creative, none of their cards are actually very good at all.  they jam packed with tons of features, but have terrible ADACs (analog-digial-analog converts)


----------



## TrainTrackHack

> realtek onboard audio is just as good as the best creative card. creative cards are more of a marketing gimmic then anything else.


Care to explain, or is the sky just turning pink?


----------



## realmike15

double post


----------



## realmike15

hackapelite said:


> Care to explain, or is the sky just turning pink?



already did...

"again dont waste your money on creative, none of their cards are actually very good at all. they jam packed with tons of features, but have terrible ADACs (analog-digial-analog converts)"

not to mention no one uses creative cards at the professional level for referencing material... wonder why


----------



## TrainTrackHack

> "again dont waste your money on creative, none of their cards are actually very good at all. they jam packed with tons of features, but have terrible ADACs (analog-digial-analog converts)"


 I've been very satisfied with my Creative cards, and general consensus is that Creative cards are better than onboard - I've yet to see a onboard sound that beats any of Creative card (of course we don't count the ancient ones, though by SoundBlaster 4.1 produces just as good sound as my Realtek onboard)


----------



## Jerrick

Ill just throw this in here.

My motherboard has HD audio built win and supports from 2-7.1 systems. Besides that, I also have Dolby Home Theater built in with quite a bit of options in there.

How does my onboard sound compare to sound cards? Im hopping its going to take the place of my old SB Live value card.

Its about time I can use all the speakers I got that my friend gave to me as a birthday gift.


----------



## diduknowthat

I don't know what onboard sound you're using, but the onboard sound on my motherboard, Realtek ALC888, SUCKS. I've tried using an old cheapo 5.1 sound card and it sounded a much better. My current card, the xtrememusic, sounds brilliant, even with cheap, sub-par 5.1 speakers.


----------



## Jerrick

Realtek ALC889A codecs.

Says, "HD audio inlcudes multiple high quality digital-to-analog converts that support 48KHz sampling rate.


----------



## oregon

The sound on my P35-DS3L is pretty good, but on our Dell 530, the onboard is terrible and crackly.


----------



## tuxify

Wow, that's a lot of different opinions. I think I'll bring my question to an audiophile forum, as they might be able to give me more of a combined answer.


----------



## Okedokey

mightymilk said:


> to be perfectly honest... realtek onboard audio is just as good as the best creative card.  creative cards are more of a marketing gimmic then anything else.  the only thing those cards really offer, is the game decoding technology (ex: EAX).
> 
> if you want a card that actually plays 2-channel music with real claritiy, get an audio editing card...
> 
> m-audio makes nice stuff
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829121008'
> 
> again dont waste your money on creative, none of their cards are actually very good at all.  they jam packed with tons of features, but have terrible ADACs (analog-digial-analog converts)



Let’s stick to the facts eh champ?  This is the second time you have posted here with this bs.

*ADAC - Myth 1 - Creative's are rubbish.*For those who don't understand the (SNR) signal-to-noise ratio compares the level of a desired signal (such as music) to the level of background noise. The higher the ratio, the less obtrusive the background noise is.  Thus the higher signal to noise ratio the better.

The realtek ALC888 ADAC has a SNR of around 97dB whereas the Creative Titanium (not the best btw), has a SNR of 109dB.  Now remember dB is a logarithmic scale, so that is significantly better.  Put it this way, 30dB is 100 times more than 20dB so you get the idea that 109 is much better than 97 (its actually less than that on its DAC).

Verdict: Now unless you want to record, which he doesn't, a *Creative is better - significantly.*


Summary of the other aspects that are better on the Creative card (remember this is not the best one): 


Digital Dolby Support.
X-Fi 
EAX
64mB or RAM onboard which allows sound samples to be processed onboard.
PCIe x 1 card which means it leaves the PCI slot free
DTS encoding...

Do I need to go on?

Unless you are recording in a home studio environment, nothing else is up to scratch, and it will definitely beat any onboard sound, even simply because of the interference from the motherboard is reduced....

Conclusion, will you notice the difference?  YES!  Provided you are not intending to record professional level recordings, you will notice a significant difference in noise reduction and sound quality with the Creative card over the onboard (any) sound solution.

btw Oregon is beautiful, spent most of this year there in the far NE.


----------



## realmike15

haha I like how you call me sport in an attempt to display a greater understanding of sound cards.  now let me explain something to you..

the importance of a quality sound card is not it's SNR.. but it's ability to convert the signal from digital to analog without any change in the sound. something having nothing to do with specs and something that cannot be defined in numbers. 

the fact still remains no recording studio using creative sound cards for referencing (listening) to material because they are not true to source reference system... in other words sucks.

feel free to sprout off more numbers about things you clearly don't understand


----------



## Okedokey

The OP, has a computer, not a recording studio and as such the sound card will be inside the computer - rendering obsolete any further ADAC quality arguments.  When is the last time you have seen a professional sound adapter installed inside a computer.  They're not, because of the cross-talk and interference issues with a motherboard.

For a start,





mightymilk said:


> the importance of a quality sound card is not it's SNR.. but it's ability to convert the signal from digital to analog without *any *change in the sound.


 is impossible because a perfect reconstruction filter will have infinite phase delay - there is always change.

You are clearly out of your depth, and it is really quite funny that you would say that it [has]:



mightymilk said:


> ...nothing to do with specs and something that cannot be defined in numbers.



That is rubbish.  And quite laughable actually, because THD+N, ENOB and SN are the measures of a DAC quality (amongst others).  The most important to the consumer market however is SN.

I have refered to actual specifications, which contrary to your view, are important when measuring quality.  We could discuss a range of DAC issues further such as resolution, maximum sampling frequency, monotonicity, THD+N, dynamic range etc, but you are missing the point entirely.

The comparsion is between an onboard sound setup and a Creative card alternative.  Clearly the sound will be significantly better with a Creative card, due to the reasons i specified in previous posts.  Should he be interested in setting up a home studio (which he is not), with matching speaker quality, external sound adaptor and the rest of the kit required, then may be your ADAC argument would have merit.  But under this scope, it doesn't and the Creative card is the best option.

feel free to sprout out more rubbish unsupported argument about a subject matter you have clearly been exposed as not having a clue about.  champ.


----------



## Vizy

offtopic:

burn.


----------



## Okedokey

Vizy93 said:


> offtopic:
> 
> burn.



Its not off topic whatsoever, its completely on the topic of would the OP experience a noticable improvement moving to a Creative card, from Realtek's integrated solution.  Answer Yes.  Why, read above.


----------



## tuxify

Thank you for the responses bigfella. I don't plan on creating a recording studio, I just want my audio to sound better.
I've been playing around with my audio, but when I hear audio elsewhere, be it from speakers or headphones, I notice a much higher quality.

Like I said, I am using my new ATH-A700s, but I also plan on getting the Logitech X-540s or the Logitech G51s. I'd probably then only use my A700s for gaming (precision), and the Logitechs for music listening.
Keeping this in mind, which sound card would fit the price range I am looking at (the X-540 price range) so the sound card isn't too much or too little for both the headphones and speakers I will be using?


----------



## Okedokey

I would suggest the Creative Titanium PCIe x 1 card assuming you have a PCIe x 1 slot.


----------



## Quantum 9598

Some audio content may make you feel the huge difference between sound cards or speakers (for instance, try RightMark3D 3D sound test program on your headphone). I think Creative is arround 100+dB SNR actually and it should be a little bit better than common onboard audio (90~95dB), but just little. So is THD+N (arround -90dB).

Why not you guys consider ASUS Xonar series (116~118dB SNR, -108dB THD+N)? It has been recognized as very good quality cards. DX (PCIe) or D1 (PCI) could be cheaper options.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Description=Xonar


----------



## tuxify

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102019
Like that?
I wasn't really expecting to spend $129 on a sound card. Do you really think I'll notice a significant difference from the onboard?

I think I'll start off by getting the X-540s (or should I get the G51s?) and then later on get that sound card and be blown away by the difference.
So should I get the X-540s or the G51?


----------



## realmike15

bigfellla said:


> The OP, has a computer, not a recording studio and as such the sound card will be inside the computer - rendering obsolete any further ADAC quality arguments.  When is the last time you have seen a professional sound adapter installed inside a computer.  They're not, because of the cross-talk and interference issues with a motherboard.
> 
> For a start, is impossible because a perfect reconstruction filter will have infinite phase delay - there is always change.
> 
> You are clearly out of your depth, and it is really quite funny that you would say that it [has]:
> 
> 
> 
> That is rubbish.  And quite laughable actually, because THD+N, ENOB and SN are the measures of a DAC quality (amongst others).  The most important to the consumer market however is SN.
> 
> I have refered to actual specifications, which contrary to your view, are important when measuring quality.  We could discuss a range of DAC issues further such as resolution, maximum sampling frequency, monotonicity, THD+N, dynamic range etc, but you are missing the point entirely.
> 
> The comparsion is between an onboard sound setup and a Creative card alternative.  Clearly the sound will be significantly better with a Creative card, due to the reasons i specified in previous posts.  Should he be interested in setting up a home studio (which he is not), with matching speaker quality, external sound adaptor and the rest of the kit required, then may be your ADAC argument would have merit.  But under this scope, it doesn't and the Creative card is the best option.
> 
> feel free to sprout out more rubbish unsupported argument about a subject matter you have clearly been exposed as not having a clue about.  champ.



actually i find it funny that you still think sprouting of tech specs (in most cases skewed by the company doing it) is a measure of how good a card is.  what would be the importance of product reviews, if we could all just look at tech specs?

no different then an informed buyer, does not go into Best Buy looking for a new TV, and assumes that the tv with 1000000/1 contrast ratio has it because it says it on the box.

but really keep trying to talk down me, i've recorded music for 15 years.  guess where all those movies and games get their sound?  the recording industry.  reading some wikipedia articles does not make you an informed buyer.

you keep bringing up the fact that he's not trying to build a studio.  yet you still cannot get it through your thick skull, that i recommended a very simple playback card... with a few input options for recording (funny enough creative tries to market their cards as recording capable as well).  a card with superb playback, even on a mediocre speaker system like my Klipsch THX computer speakers.

THD meaning Total Harmonic Distortion is no longer a factor in most buying these days.  the reason being *distortion is so low on most pre-amps these days*, it's beyond point of human hearing.

the same goes for bit-rates.  24-bit is about the limit to human hearing, and your average joe can't hear a difference between 24 and 16 bit.

there have been hundreds of studies about NOT buying products based on company issued specifications.  the numbers are often skewed, they are not a reliable, and most importantly they are completely unreliable when it comes to measuring one product against another.  they are loose guildelines for buying.

whats next, you gonna suggest he buy a Bose computer speaker system too lol?  it amazes me just how much you've acted like a fool, or how you thought these little insults of yours, might make that e-peen just a little bigger.  i'm done with you, since your whole arguement is based around throwing specs around like it's the word of god.

i ask you again to prove me wrong here... find me one person who uses a creative pre-amp or power-amp for the final listen of a mix before it ships out to consumers.  doesn't happen *surprise*


----------



## Okedokey

Mate you are not the only one who has been recording since the 90's.  I have been recording for longer than that actually.  You seem upset and I apologise for that.  I am sorry that the facts have made you feel inadequate to the point of spitting your dummy, but  the specifications tell more of a story than your analogies.  We are talking about a guy who wants his computers to sound better than crap, not the playback at a recording studio.  He's bawked at $129, what can you offer that is better than Creative at that price? - and no, realtek is not an option because he is looking for better, which Creative Labs cards simply are as I have proven.

You haven't yet actually given one shred of evidence as to:



mightymilk said:


> to be perfectly honest... realtek onboard audio is just as good as the best creative card.  creative cards are more of a marketing gimmic then anything else.



As hack says here;



hackapelite said:


> Care to explain, or is the sky just turning pink?



and finally:



mightymilk said:


> ...i ask you again to prove me wrong here... find me one person who uses a creative pre-amp or power-amp for the final listen of a mix before it ships out to consumers.  doesn't happen *surprise*



*We're not talking about producing.  How many times do I have to say it?*  Therefore the only answer is:  almost every computer user who wants a mixture of great gaming (e.g. EAX) and superior quality compared to onbaord solutions.  Thus the answer to this thread. 

...but considering this thread is several weeks old, lets not argue, you can believe what you want champ.  Your view is recorded for the OP, but I will stick to the quantifiable, thats right, specifications.


----------



## tuxify

So I ordered the G51 Speakers because after the rebate and free shipping, I got them for the same price as the X-530s.
Later, if I feel if I'm not getting the most out of my speakers/headphones, I'll get the outcome of this mighty battle.
So please, continue. It's fun to read. Plus I'm learning a lot.


----------



## realmike15

bigfellla said:


> Mate you are not the only one who has been recording since the 90's.  I have been recording for longer than that actually.  You seem upset and I apologise for that.  I am sorry that the facts have made you feel inadequate to the point of spitting your dummy, but  the specifications tell more of a story than your analogies.  We are talking about a guy who wants his computers to sound better than crap, not the playback at a recording studio.  He's bawked at $129, what can you offer that is better than Creative at that price? - and no, realtek is not an option because he is looking for better, which Creative Labs cards simply are as I have proven.
> 
> You haven't yet actually given one shred of evidence as to:
> 
> 
> 
> As hack says here;
> 
> 
> 
> and finally:
> 
> 
> 
> *We're not talking about producing.  How many times do I have to say it?*  Therefore the only answer is:  almost every computer user who wants a mixture of great gaming (e.g. EAX) and superior quality compared to onbaord solutions.  Thus the answer to this thread.
> 
> ...but considering this thread is several weeks old, lets not argue, you can believe what you want champ.  Your view is recorded for the OP, but I will stick to the quantifiable, thats right, specifications.



jesus christ youre thick skulled.  the final playback is not producing you dolt.

you say you been recording for years?  it's not showing at all..

recording/mixing is producing.  final playback is listening, it's a simulated situation to when the consumer gets his CD home and pops it in his stereo.  can you identify the difference between 4kHz and 5kHz during playback?  do you know the difference between ribbon mics and condenser mics? my guess is no, since you can't even distinguish the difference between playback and recording/mixing.  the recording industry and consumer media are so closely related and you can't even acknowledge that... one is created by the other...  so how does one sit there and say that a quality 2-channel playback soundcard (that happens to be used by pros) is not good for someone who wants better sound.

$99 for http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829121120
way better ADACs then the creative, proof is in the sound, proof is in all the professionals who use m-audio for playback.  go to a recording forum and say all the stuff you've said here about how good the ADACs are on creative boards... i wouldn't be surprised if you were laughed off the forums.

finally it's not about me convincing anyone to buy the m-audio over the creative.  it's about you giving poor information, and throwing around numbers in an attempt to sound like you know audio.  keep thinking you've upset me.. the truth is if you give the wrong information i'm going to call you on it... everytime.


----------



## Okedokey

As i said you believe what you want, i will stick to the specs.  The OP can go for M-Audio if he wishes (unless he has Vista which isn't supported according to Newegg), but if he games, then Creative is the only choice.


----------



## realmike15

to clear a couple things up.

the only version of vista that card does not support is 64-bit Vista.  but the drivers are in Beta now and hopefully they'll be out soon.

EAX is a creative technology, and has lost appeal in the market.  i recall seeing less and less games using EAX from its introduction to now.  i personally never liked it, but some people may disagree with me here.  it's not a make or break thing for a game... i promise your games will sound just as good on a two-channel playback card as it will on an EAX enabled card.  EAX is mostly another thing for creative to stick on the box as list of features.  it does ALOT less then they'd have you believe.

surround sound is a very neat thing to have.. but most people only use 2.1 speakers systems, because it's difficult to get the 2 rear surrounds of a 5.1 system behind your head in a desktop configuration.

don't just listen to me, head over to a specialized audiophile forum, and tell them you're looking for a quality playback card.  they may be able to suggest something even better then the m-audio in the same price range.


----------



## thereckerdbraikr

havent been on in a while and i found myself in this thread

i saw on pg 2 



			
				bigfella said:
			
		

> The realtek ALC888 ADAC has a SNR of around 97dB whereas the Creative Titanium (not the best btw), has a SNR of 109dB. Now remember dB is a logarithmic scale, so that is significantly better. *Put it this way, 30dB is 100 times more than 20dB *so you get the idea that 109 is much better than 97 (its actually less than that on its DAC).



i dont really know much about speakers but i do know quite a bit about math
it seems you are saying that the dB scale is on a base ten log scale (why the hell is it base 10 anyway, e is so much nicer)

anyway, you claim that 30dB is 100x "more" (w/e that means) than 20dB

so for some mathage

not sure what units accompany measure desired sound and measured noise, but its the same unit so it can be disregarded

lets say x is sound
and y is noise

10*log (x) -10*log (y) = the dB (in this case of a soundcard)

i found this eq after 30 secs of google searching

so for the 20db card

10*log (x) -10*log (y) = 20db 

solve for (x/y)

x/y=100

now do the same for 
10*log (x) -10*log (y) = 30db

x/y=1000

so assuming y is constant for both, we can say that the * 30db produces 10 times * the sound of the 20dB one (which i think is some sort of audio power (W) or audio voltage (V) measure)

so now for the 109dB and the 97dB

manipulating and combining equations, we can get

10^(dB1/10-dB2/10)= the more = 10^(10.9-9.7) = 10^1.2= 15.8489 times "more"




what do we get from all this?

that 30dB is not 100 times more 20dB, so bigfella is severely (by about a factor of 10) overestimating the superiority of the SNR ratio of one card to the other card

although 15 times more is still a good amount

like i said i dont know much about audio so i dont know if 15x is hearable or not
ps i can elaborate on the math if necessary


----------



## ScOuT

I never used a sound card in my life. About a month ago a friend gave me a really nice card because he didn't need it. I dropped it in and WOW! What a difference that thing made. I tried it on Call of Duty 4 first and I never even imagined that game could sound so great. The noise of the grenades and the guns is NUTS! Nothing even like what onboard can provide. I will never be without a sound again....ever


----------



## thereckerdbraikr

scout what did u have before and after?

im just curious because im also trying to decide whether or not to get one


----------



## ScOuT

I always used on board sound and it works fine. But i got one of these from a friend and I'll never go with out a sound card again!

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102007

It's not even a high end model or anything really special...but it works great


----------



## [trs]ALUMINUM

This thread is for a person that wants better sound then onboard. NOT to say who knows what about sound cards. 

Bigfella said the Creative Titanium. Thats a sweet card. I totally recommend it. Also the G51's are very nice packed with a titanium. My friend has that pair and the sound is absolutely stunning.


----------

