# Your opinion on pirating windows



## twalker323

pirating windows is a common practice. But how do you personally feel about it. Is it like stealing? is it any better then downloading songs or movies off the internet? how many people do you suppose do it? do you know someone who does it? do you think its a crime?

i am not condoning pirating of Windows. I am curious on peoples opinions of it

*Response- sept 29*

Very interesting opinions and information.

Well I started this thread for this reason.

I want to address many of you that have stated that it is *MORE *of a crime to download music/games/movies etc then downloading an OS- many of you have stated that although you have download games/music/movies etc, you have not and will not pirate an OS. But let’s look at this situation in depth. 

A DVD is about $15 to 20. A CD about $10, and games are about $50 to 60. Now combine all the music/movies/games that you have pirated and actually think of the value in cash that you have taken. It probably far exceeds the $200 to 300 that it costs in U.S to purchase a legit copy of Windows OS.

As Dirty D86 has aptly said, Microsoft can go the next 500 years without making a single profit and would still have more than enough money left over- which is true. If this is true, isn’t downloading music/movies/games *MORE *of a crime then downloading an OS? After all as big as some (emphasis on some) music/movies/game companies are, they are nowhere as big as Microsoft- hence hurting them more (much more if the company is a budding buisness). 

So to those that wag their fingers at the idea of pirating an OS- I ask of you, *are your hands any cleaner*? If you are okay with the idea of pirating music/games/movies, shouldn’t you be okay with the idea of pirating an OS?

Once again I am not trying to justify pirating an OS or any product for that matter. I just don’t understand the stance many of you take when it comes to pirating.


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## Vizy

It's illegal. I've never pirated it. And it's not worth it. You can't do updates and stuff when u need to, its just retarded, just go ahead and buy it. Go ahead and pirate whatever else though (just keep that news to urself).


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## twalker323

Vizy93 said:


> It's illegal. I've never pirated it. And it's not worth it. You can't do updates and stuff when u need to, its just retarded, just go ahead and buy it. Go ahead and pirate whatever else though (just keep that news to urself).



i am not asking for approvals. i am interested in opinions


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## brian

my opinion is this thread will be closing verrrry soon


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## Vizy

twalker323 said:


> i am not asking for approvals. i am interested in opinions





Vizy93 said:


> And *it's not worth it*.



I did give my opinion, thank you very much.


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## cohen

Look, windows is getting on top of pirating, and i think pirating an OS is worse then pirating software or even music.....

People pirate things like windows, are going to get caught sooner or later!


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## Vizy

cohen said:


> People pirate things like windows, are going to get caught sooner or later!



Hmmm...that's be really difficult. If people would pirate it, it would be off torrents most likely. And that is extremely hard to track, with some downloads getting over 100000 seeds.

As the software evolves, so will the crackers/coders/hackers.


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## chibicitiberiu

I really don't get it. Why would people pirate windows, when there is linux for free and much better than windows?
Why create games and software for windows when linux is simply superior and the number of users for it is growing?
I understand that windows has eye candy that attracts people, but why choose and use an operating system that is so vulnerable to malware and so on??
Why Windows? What does it have that linux doesn't?

Sometimes i don't know why I am using windows and not going to linux. Maybe because there are cool games for windows, but why aren't games for linux too???

With linux getting easier and easier to use and the need of the console becoming smaller, i really don't know why people prefer windows...


And now if people would stop pirating windows, many would switch to linux because not many buy software these days, so many would get linux for free instead of windows that is not free.


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## DirtyD86

i will be the first to admit that piracy is like pandoras box for me. and apparently a lot of other people too considering i just saw a statistic saying 1,000,000 copies of spore were bought legitimately, and 400,000 were pirated. the only downside of getting things for free that i can think of is that someone behind the game/song/movie/software sweat blood to ensure you were able to enjoy it as much as you do. as a result this person might not get the compensation they deserve for their efforts, and ultimately might become disgruntled and stop making things for you to download altogether. it is already starting to happen to PC games. the market is slowly dying off and one day new PC games might be a rarity. 

human nature isn't going anywhere, so as long as people have the means to do it, it is going to be done. and the means will always be there, because for every brilliant mind that thinks of a new way to make it harder for you to pirate the latest game, there are 40 equally brilliant minds that don't want to pay for said game. some companies like EA and microsoft are so disgustingly massive that i don't think any amount of piracy short of 100% would slow them down at all, but smaller more indie games are definitely hurting.

i've gone way off topic as i usually do. pirating windows is bad, and illegal, but microsoft could go the next 500 years without making a cent and still have enough money to give each high level executive a 20 million a year allowance for hookers and lap dances.


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## jdbennet

> I really don't get it. Why would people pirate windows, when there is linux for free and much better than windows?



Linux isnt better. The vast majority of apps exist for windows. It would not be cost effective to port these to a new platform

I personally think NT is superior to linux.



> Why create games and software for windows when linux is simply superior and the number of users for it is growing?



Its not growing as fast as windows is.
Secondly, the engines would need to be ported



> I understand that windows has eye candy that attracts people, but why choose and use an operating system that is so vulnerable to malware and so on??



NT is not vulnerable to malware unless you are an idiot (which most windows users are - they run as admin user!). If you have a linux system and use the root account for day to day taks you would be just as vulnerable.



> Why Windows? What does it have that linux doesn't?



99% hardware and software support, thats what
and a larger user base


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## Gebucht

Vizy93 said:


> It's illegal. I've never pirated it. And it's not worth it. You can't do updates and stuff when u need to, its just retarded, just go ahead and buy it. Go ahead and pirate whatever else though (just keep that news to urself).



There is a genuine crack, which a friend has tested and it works. He was downloading updates off a downloaded version of Windows.

However myself, I do hold a license to my copy of Windows


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## bomberboysk

Pirating windows.... aint worth it, i bought mine, you should too.


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## Shane

The way i see it yes pirating is bad,downloading anything without paying for it is but if Microsoft would reduce their prices they ask then more people would buy a genuine copy.

People will continue to pirate their software until they reduce the price ALOT,Microsoft tried to stop pirating in Vista by adding additional genuine windows stuff i think but it just didnt work and is easily beaten within a few days.


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## gamerman4

Pirating Windows is probably less likely to affect MS than, say pirating a game form EA. MS is pretty much guaranteed that any Dell, HP, Toshiba, Sony, etc... computer will have the Windows OS on it. That seriously undermines a lot of the money lost (not actually "lost" but "not gained") from the individuals that pirate. I think pirating games is worse since the people that make games do not have the 3rd-party backing that MS has.


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## Gebucht

bomberboysk said:


> Pirating windows.... aint worth it, i bought mine, you should too.




That should be made into a slogan


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## alexyu

My father had a HDD problem and he took the computer to service. Those guys recovered the files, but put him back a pirated Windows, LastXP 1.6 or something like that...
It looks like XP SP3 mixed w/ Vista, and it has a lot of pirated programs on it (Office 2007 is the best example). They also "forgot" the DVD in.

Conclusion: Even if you cant stand pirating Windows, you have to face it: everybody does it.


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## Dropkickmurphys

at the end of the day, i think pirating any software is as bad as another, people have spent hours of their life working on these programs for us to use, they deserve a reward (im not sure if what we pay is fair, maybe too much), but its like saying, "you build this house for me, and I wont pay you, ill just move in" ...


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## Calibretto

If you do it right, you can pirate Windows with no problem and still get all the updates. So with that said, I don't see why it's not worth it. Yes it's illegal and wrong but some people don't have $100 lying around to put a stinkin' GUI on their PC. Yes I know, there is Linux but there is a lot of stuff you can't do on Linux like game.


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## Shane

Dropkickmurphys said:


> people have spent hours of their life working on these programs for us to use, they deserve a reward



why do they diserve a reward? at the end of the day that is what they are paid to do,its not like theyre doing it in their own free time and not getting paid to do it.

Microsoft pay them to make the OS,they pay them to see what people want in a OS and its their job to make sure it works....looks like with Vista they did not do a very good job.


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## Calibretto

Dropkickmurphys said:


> people have spent hours of their life working on these programs for us to use, they deserve a reward



Agreed with Nevakonaza. Also, for me, developers only deserve a reward from customers when the program or game is very good. Portal and CoD4, for instance, two great games and I bought them because I felt the developers did a great job so I felt that they needed praise by giving them my support.


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## tlarkin

jdbennet said:


> Linux isnt better. The vast majority of apps exist for windows. It would not be cost effective to port these to a new platform
> 
> I personally think NT is superior to linux.



I agree, a computer is only worth what you use it for, and most people like and want to use Windows.





> Its not growing as fast as windows is.
> Secondly, the engines would need to be ported



Other platforms are actually growing faster than Windows, and the 1 laptop per a child project will make Linux the most widely used OS period.  Though both Microsoft and Apple are now getting their hands on that project.  However, they have stated that they will not put any major OS on the laptop by itself.  They will offer some dual booting ones.





> NT is not vulnerable to malware unless you are an idiot (which most windows users are - they run as admin user!). If you have a linux system and use the root account for day to day taks you would be just as vulnerable.



This is a bit misleading.  First off some distros of Linux don't even have a root user you can log in and use.  Instead they have what is called /etc/sudoers which allows admin accounts to escalate into root privileges.  Also, in theory nothing in the GUI can access the kernel in Linux at all.  They have to go through the shell which requires authentication.  While in NT, there are things like kernel hooks, which allow software applications and drivers to directly access the kernel with out having to require admin rights at all.  This allows for malicious software to automatically install itself and have direct access to the kernel.  Also, all accounts are logged in as a root user in Windows.  While, this did change in Vista a bit, and I think that Windows will shift to a more Unix-like set of permissions, it is still inferior security wise by design.  

Now also look at technologies like Active-X, which also are granted access to kernel hooks into the NT kernel.  Which means that you can install a wrong or malicious Active-X plug in that can root your whole system in Windows.  The plus side is you get perhaps a bit of more robustness in your product as far as what it can do with the OS, the down side to these kernel hooks is that it is a security nightmare and it also allows developers to become lazy and sloppy.  

So, while your statement is true, it is also misleading.





> 99% hardware and software support, thats what
> and a larger user base



Really it is more of marketing.  In the early and mid 90s during our huge technology boom Microsoft played it very smart and was able to get their product out to the masses, because of how they did business and how they marketed it.  Now, if Linux, Unix, Mac OS, or anyone else were able to do that, they would be the standard.  Since it has become that way people don't want to change because they fear having the burden of learning something new.

Now, that I am done digressing, about piracy....

Piracy is a weird thing with me.  I think that companies should offer full on trial programs for those who want to buy their product.  A lot of times you can't demo a product with out the full version.  I understand the need not to, but I have in the past downloaded and used pirated software to merely test it out.  Then if it was a product I liked I actually would have my company buy it.  Also, when I have to deploy an application to thousands of computers and that company who makes the product has some jacked up ridiculous design or licensing which makes it impossible for me to deploy, I get mad and call and complain.  When my organization pays $60,000 for a site license, it should work with out having to jump through hoops or activation woes to get the software to freaking work.  I can see where people would buy a license and then use the pirated copy just because of the less hassle.

Now, that being said, you should always pay for your product.  I am a big fan of try before you buy, but I always buy if I truly like it or want that product.  Operating systems are required so if you are going to use one that you pay for then you need to pay for it.  Granted I think Vista is a huge marketing mishap and I hate how they feature limit, but then again our MS rep gives us IT guys free copies of Vista Ultimate.  So, I have a free legit copy from the vendor but probably would not spend $300 on Vista Ultimate as i don't think it is worth the money at all.  However, I think that if you are going to use it you should pay for it, no matter what it is.  People don't sacrifice their hours each week to give you a free copy and they need to earn their pay check.


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## atentora

I try to avoid pirating software, although there are a few exceptions *cough*adobe CS3*cough*, and use open soure alternatives. I even donate to some of these. An OS should be bought or obtained legally. Games should be bought, but I do have some exceptions to this rule, but those are due to companies *cough*EA*cough*Spore*cough* punishing users who buy a ligit copy.


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## patrickv

Pirating windows is a crime, pirating anything in that manner but some** cannot afford, because first off mind you a copy of windows locally here costs $393 or 217£ approx... now tell me would you buy at a high price ?
maybe am wrong but after searching online XP PRO SP2 does not even top 250$.
(well maybe i searched at the wrong place)

I won't give details on piracy but you'd be surprise at the level of piracy here....


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## Dropkickmurphys

Nevakonaza said:


> why do they diserve a reward? at the end of the day that is what they are paid to do,its not like theyre doing it in their own free time and not getting paid to do it.
> 
> Microsoft pay them to make the OS,they pay them to see what people want in a OS and its their job to make sure it works....looks like with Vista they did not do a very good job.





> Agreed with Nevakonaza. Also, for me, developers only deserve a reward from customers when the program or game is very good. Portal and CoD4, for instance, two great games and I bought them because I felt the developers did a great job so I felt that they needed praise by giving them my support.



My whole point was, their reward is Microsoft (or whoever) paying them, how do you think Microsoft gets the money to pay the staff! (...ok...thats not a great example, but you get the point...).
And they are not always going to get everything right are they? Vista isnt a bad operating system, people just dont like it, I know its been built so that people who dont live in front of their computer can use it easily, but still, i dont see that much more wrong with it... its more secure and up to date than XP... there might be a few problems with Vista, but you try writing 60Million lines of code and get its all completely flawless...even with however many people microsoft have working on it.


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## tlarkin

Well, MS, also doesn't prosecute piracy all that much in other markets.  China for example:  Why would any Chinese citizen pay like a whole month's salary for Vista, when they can buy it for a dollar pirated off the street?  MS knows that chinese citizens can not afford their product, but what they do know is that everyone over there is using it, and their economy is booming right now.

So, what happens in 5 years from now when their average citizen's monthly salary goes up so high that they can afford spending $300 on an Operating System?  They will start to pay for it.  What OS will they use?  The one they are used to using and have been illegally for years.  It is in MS's best interest to allow them to keep pirating their OS because when their economy catches up and allows their consumers to buy such products they will, and MS will benefit from that.

Piracy definitely has its perks for sure.  However, I do think that if you can afford it you should pay for it.  I also think that all software companies should offer full money back guarantees as well if you don't like the product.  A lot of software companies don't allow for that once you open it and install it.


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## Calibretto

tlarkin said:


> I also think that all software companies should offer full money back guarantees as well if you don't like the product.  A lot of software companies don't allow for that once you open it and install it.



Agreed...it sucks when you buy a piece of software and then install just to find out that it's not what you really wanted. Once you open it, the value goes down by like 10 or 20%.


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## jdbennet

MS sell legal copies of xp for like $10 in africa and china, to try and stop the pirates, but its Starter Edition which is shit.



> This is a bit misleading. First off some distros of Linux don't even have a root user you can log in and use. Instead they have what is called /etc/sudoers which allows admin accounts to escalate into root privileges. Also, in theory nothing in the GUI can access the kernel in Linux at all. They have to go through the shell which requires authentication. While in NT, there are things like kernel hooks, which allow software applications and drivers to directly access the kernel with out having to require admin rights at all. This allows for malicious software to automatically install itself and have direct access to the kernel. Also, all accounts are logged in as a root user in Windows. While, this did change in Vista a bit, and I think that Windows will shift to a more Unix-like set of permissions, it is still inferior security wise by design.
> 
> 
> 
> by default vista doesnt allow access to the local administrator account, and you must use UAC to escelate (same way)
> 
> I do agree though that windows needs to seperate the GUI and the kernel - maybe follow an X Server model. I mean, it shouldnt be too hard, windows terminal services provides the client/server functionality. However, physically seperating the drivers would require a different HAL midel and when they change it it tends to break things
Click to expand...


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## tlarkin

OS X did it by simply requiring admin authentication to install software or modify a system file.  While not bullet proof, it doesn't allow for things to install them self.


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## jdbennet

same on windows....
a non admin user cant do it

but windows users are idiots and run as admins


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## funkysnair

had and used all version (xplite-xpblack edition- vista ultimate by experience and more)

i found a few problems with them-people adding backdoors and other nasty stuff along with alot of the functions dissabled....

not worth it-!! seriously! you are asking for problems

i got a legit copy of vista home premium 64bit, xp64bit and xp 32bit pro and ive never looked back


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## tlarkin

jdbennet said:


> same on windows....
> a non admin user cant do it
> 
> but windows users are idiots and run as admins



From my understanding it doesn't work that way, it doesn't require authentication just the option to run as admin, hence the right click ability to run as admin in Vista.  While everything in OS X (and Unix and Linux) will prompt for you credentials any time it tries to modify anything outside your home directory.  Windows still has a registry and shared resources which makes it, in my professional opinion, not as secure and kind of clunky.

I don't use Vista every day but have been using it since the beta.  It is a transition OS, and Windows 7 will be more like Unix and it will require the authentication, which will make it more secure.  People will complain and cry out how much it sucks, but they will get over it.  Hopefully they will fully stop allowing developers access to kernel hooks as well.  Windows has allowed many developers to develop some sloppy habits.  Symantec is one of them that boycotted Windows taking away kernel hooks, and well when a Software company about the same size or maybe even larger than MS says if you do this we will pull the plug, you aren't going to get any sales on your new OS.  Symantec pretty much runs most of the corporate back end on virus scanning, imaging, data mining, but they are slowly losing their market share to more competitive companies.

So, back to piracy.....

In some ways it helps get the product out and in circulation and in use.  It also takes money out of the developers hands.  When a company charges $30 for a new DVD I am more inclined to download it.  If they charged like $8 I would be more inclined to buy it.  So, one of the main problems with piracy is that these media and software companies are living in the past, wanting to charge you all this extra cash for boxes, shipping, marketing, etc.  If you could just download a legit ISO of the OS for half the price how many people do you think would start to pay for it?


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## twalker323

Very interesting opinions and information.

Well I started this thread for this reason.

I want to address many of you that have stated that it is *MORE *of a crime to download music/games/movies etc then downloading an OS- many of you have stated that although you have download games/music/movies etc, you have not and will not pirate an OS. But let’s look at this situation in depth. 

A DVD is about $15 to 20. A CD about $10, and games are about $50 to 60. Now combine all the music/movies/games that you have pirated and actually think of the value in cash that you have taken. It probably far exceeds the $200 to 300 that it costs in U.S to purchase a legit copy of Windows OS.

As Dirty D86 has aptly said, Microsoft can go the next 500 million years without making a single profit and would still have more than enough money left over- which is true. If this is true, isn’t downloading music/movies/games *MORE *of a crime then downloading an OS? After all as big as some (emphasis on some) music/movies/game companies are, they are nowhere as big as Microsoft- hence hurting them more (much more if the company is a budding buisness). 

So to those that wag their fingers at the idea of pirating an OS- I ask of you, *are your hands any cleaner*? If you are okay with the idea of pirating music/games/movies, shouldn’t you be okay with the idea of pirating an OS?

Once again I am not trying to justify pirating an OS or any product for that matter. I just don’t understand the stance many of you take when it comes to pirating.


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## jdbennet

no, windows 7 will be crap

all the cool bits like WinFS and MinWin have been shelved

It will be Vista SE (hell, i dont even know why they should call it NT7, should be nt 6.2 or 6.3 because its not a feature release)


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## just a noob

how would you like it if you were holding 100 dollars, and someone ran by and grabbed it? and you would never see it again? don't like that? then don't pirate anything


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## Calibretto

just a noob said:


> how would you like it if you were holding 100 dollars, and someone ran by and grabbed it? and you would never see it again? don't like that? then don't pirate anything



right but it's not like that....


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## ellanky

Calibretto said:


> If you do it right, you can pirate Windows with no problem and still get all the updates. So with that said, I don't see why it's not worth it. Yes it's illegal and wrong but some people don't have $100 lying around to put a stinkin' GUI on their PC. Yes I know, there is Linux but there is a lot of stuff you can't do on Linux like game.



I have to agree with this and with a comment about supporting developers. I admit I did download CoD4 and HL2: EP1 & 2 but I later bought them because they were great games and by me paying for those games its like me saying "thank you for your games" and them saying "thank you for your support"


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## tlarkin

twalker323 said:


> Very interesting opinions and information.
> 
> Well I started this thread for this reason.
> 
> I want to address many of you that have stated that it is *MORE *of a crime to download music/games/movies etc then downloading an OS- many of you have stated that although you have download games/music/movies etc, you have not and will not pirate an OS. But let’s look at this situation in depth.
> 
> A DVD is about $15 to 20. A CD about $10, and games are about $50 to 60. Now combine all the music/movies/games that you have pirated and actually think of the value in cash that you have taken. It probably far exceeds the $200 to 300 that it costs in U.S to purchase a legit copy of Windows OS.
> 
> As Dirty D86 has aptly said, Microsoft can go the next 500 million years without making a single profit and would still have more than enough money left over- which is true. If this is true, isn’t downloading music/movies/games *MORE *of a crime then downloading an OS? After all as big as some (emphasis on some) music/movies/game companies are, they are nowhere as big as Microsoft- hence hurting them more (much more if the company is a budding buisness).
> 
> So to those that wag their fingers at the idea of pirating an OS- I ask of you, *are your hands any cleaner*? If you are okay with the idea of pirating music/games/movies, shouldn’t you be okay with the idea of pirating an OS?
> 
> Once again I am not trying to justify pirating an OS or any product for that matter. I just don’t understand the stance many of you take when it comes to pirating.



Piracy is piracy, there are no degrees of it.  It is illegal and wrong to steal that way.  Now, most people don't think it hurts MS, but it does.  The things we discussed here are mostly circumstantial.


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## kal2509

i love pirating.... there is something about the open sea that just shivers me timbers.... ARGG


*shakes his head in shame* 

that was really gay wasn't it?


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## Respital

kal2509 said:


> i love pirating.... there is something about the open sea that just shivers me timbers.... ARGG
> 
> 
> *shakes his head in shame*
> 
> that was really gay wasn't it?



Yeah that was. 

Back on topic. Like someone said pirating can't be stopped completely, as long as there is a will there is a way. Like someone else said, not everyone has $200 to spend just to stick a GUI in their comp.
Those are my thoughts.


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## Kesava

I don't think I have ever paid for software, and the only games I have ever paid for were Audiosurf and The Orange Box. The rest, such as OS's, Music, Games, Porn and so on, I have pirated. If possible I will usually use freeware alternatives such as open office and VLC player and so on.

There have been times though when I have bought the CD of a local band because they actually need the money to support themselves.

I don't have the money to buy games, so it's not like I am just downloading them for free when I could be buying them. The makers aren't loosing money from me deciding to download the game instead. Because if I wasn't able to download it, I wouldn't buy it anyway.

That doesn't make it the right thing to do though.

Even though the manufacturers are making huge profits from the sales and your little download doesnt seem to hurt them at all, it also doesn't make it right.


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## Droogie

Warez are my friends.


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## Kesava

Vizy93 said:


> It's illegal. I've never pirated it. And it's not worth it. You can't do updates and stuff when u need to, its just retarded, just go ahead and buy it. Go ahead and pirate whatever else though (just keep that news to urself).



Actually, money wise, it is worth it.
And I've never had any trouble with updates or anything. If you haven't pirated it then how can you say that? Unless you have heard somewhere that you can't update pirated versions of windows. Which is not true.


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## Vizy

Kesava said:


> I don't think I have ever paid for software, and the only games I have ever paid for were Audiosurf and The Orange Box. The rest, such as OS's, Music, Games, Porn and so on, I have pirated. There have been times when I have bought the CD of a local band because they actually need the money to support themselves.
> 
> I don't have the money to buy games, so it's not like I am just downloading them for free when I could be buying them. The makers aren't loosing money from me deciding to download the game instead. Because if I wasn't able to download it, I wouldn't buy it anyway.
> 
> That doesn't make it the right thing to do though.
> 
> Even though the manufacturers are making huge profits from the sales and your little download doesnt seem to hurt them at all, it also doesn't make it right.



Wow, u better edit that though. I received an infraction for saying something similiar to ur first paragraph.


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## Kesava

Vizy93 said:


> Wow, u better edit that though. I received an infraction for saying something similiar to ur first paragraph.



Haha it would still be there in your quote. good thinking 

Anyway. If I actually had a decent income I would quite happily pay for software and so on. Except for software such as Solidworks which is like 10k or so isn't it? haha


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## coleman

pirating is pirating weather it be an OS or software it is all the same. i think different people will have different opinions, if you can afford to bump up the price of your build then yeah get a legit os, however for toughs who don't have much money, sometimes pirating software and OS systems is the only choice.


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## patrickv

Kesava said:


> I don't think I have ever paid for software, and the only games I have ever paid for were Audiosurf and The Orange Box. The rest, such as OS's, Music, Games, Porn and so on, I have pirated. If possible I will usually use freeware alternatives such as open office and VLC player and so on.


wow 
you must be the supreme commander of pirates 



Kesava said:


> I don't have the money to buy games


i do have money to buy games and software but they ain't available like any other country



tknick90 said:


> Warez are my friends.


lol mine too hehe


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## tlarkin

I can't say that I feel sorry for you when your system crashes or you get a virus from using crappy pirated software.

It is stealing no matter how you look at it, the only difference is people can't understand the concept of stealing something non tangible.  Lines of code can't be touched or processed in the sense that we humans think of stealing an actual object.  Stealing a wallet or a car is a physical thing you can touch and feel, stealing lines of code in an application is something we don't parallel to such ideas.

If you can't afford it perhaps you shouldn't have it.  I mean if you can't afford to own a car does that give you the right to steal one for yourself?  If you can't afford to own a home, should you be able to steal and squat in one for free?


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## gamerman4

tlarkin said:


> I can't say that I feel sorry for you when your system crashes or you get a virus from using crappy pirated software.
> 
> It is stealing no matter how you look at it, the only difference is people can't understand the concept of stealing something non tangible.  Lines of code can't be touched or processed in the sense that we humans think of stealing an actual object.  Stealing a wallet or a car is a physical thing you can touch and feel, stealing lines of code in an application is something we don't parallel to such ideas.
> 
> If you can't afford it perhaps you shouldn't have it.  I mean if you can't afford to own a car does that give you the right to steal one for yourself?  If you can't afford to own a home, should you be able to steal and squat in one for free?



It isn't that it is non-tangible, it is that it is copyable data. If a Ferrari could just be copy and pasted to everyone in the world, no one would buy them either. Also the big businesses really aren't losing any money but do stand to gain more money from pirating. Those that pirate often are too poor/cheap to ever actually buy the software so the company doesn't actually have any lost revenue from most (most, not all) pirates. People pirate $10,000 software, software that they would never need but they want to play with it and make fun things (3DS Max is often pirated). The flipside is that it is basically free advertising for them. Even photoshop, possibly one of the most pirated pieces of software ever stands to gain because the more people that have it, the more people that want it and the more likely they will buy it. Movie pirating doesn't make much of a dent either. The majority of profits from movies come from the first few weeks in theaters and those first few weeks, often the pirated movies look too bad to watch so the pirates go to the theaters anyways.


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## atentora

Don't forget spore though, that was a game the lost considerable profit because of pirating. They did kinda bring it upon themselves though...


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## tlarkin

gamerman4 said:


> It isn't that it is non-tangible, it is that it is copyable data. If a Ferrari could just be copy and pasted to everyone in the world, no one would buy them either. Also the big businesses really aren't losing any money but do stand to gain more money from pirating. Those that pirate often are too poor/cheap to ever actually buy the software so the company doesn't actually have any lost revenue from most (most, not all) pirates. People pirate $10,000 software, software that they would never need but they want to play with it and make fun things (3DS Max is often pirated). The flipside is that it is basically free advertising for them. Even photoshop, possibly one of the most pirated pieces of software ever stands to gain because the more people that have it, the more people that want it and the more likely they will buy it. Movie pirating doesn't make much of a dent either. The majority of profits from movies come from the first few weeks in theaters and those first few weeks, often the pirated movies look too bad to watch so the pirates go to the theaters anyways.



The fact that it is non tangible gives people the morals that it isn't really stealing is my whole point.  Also, your point about them not losing money I already made but they are in fact losing money.  If you spend hours writing code for a software product to have it sell 1 million copies and have 400,000 additional copies be pirated you are at a loss for that money.  

It isn't free advertising either, because the end user who pirated such products aren't going to be in charge of purchasing mass licenses for a company.  You pirate and use 3DsMax and learn it, then get a real job and they decide to use Maya instead at your place of work.  While, it does make them familiar with the product but it doesn't guarantee any type of future purchasing from that company.

If you can't afford it you probably shouldn't have it, that is just how the free market and capitalism works.  There are other factors involved that I have already mentioned which would turn the market into a better place and make consumers more driven to purchase a product over pirating it.

When steam banned like 80,000 pirated copies of HL 2 I LOL'd because those people should pay for the product.  After all, in the end how much is $40 anyway?  I mean if you can't save $40 in a month you have no business buying anything anyway, and probably need to budget yourself better.  

The problem is not that people can't afford it, it is most of them, at least here in the USA are just idiots with their money.  They borrow too much to spend on credit and can never pay it off, and then rack up huge amounts of debt.  

I want to buy something that is over $1k, I save for a few months and then just buy it.  Its not hard to do.


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## alexyu

Kesava said:


> I don't think I have ever paid for software, and the only games I have ever paid for were Audiosurf and The Orange Box. The rest, such as OS's, Music, Games, Porn and so on, I have pirated. If possible I will usually use freeware alternatives such as open office and VLC player and so on.
> 
> There have been times though when I have bought the CD of a local band because they actually need the money to support themselves.
> 
> I don't have the money to buy games, so it's not like I am just downloading them for free when I could be buying them. The makers aren't loosing money from me deciding to download the game instead. Because if I wasn't able to download it, I wouldn't buy it anyway.



Just like me lol


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## gamerman4

Funny, I just found this on digg. Basically part of what I just said.

"Electronic Arts says that it understands how an illegally downloaded copy is not, in any way, a copy that was lost as a sale to the company. Mariam Sughayer, who is working for the corporate communications
department of EA, says that “Stepping aside from the whole issue of DRM, people need to recognize that every BitTorrent download doesn’t represent a successful copy of a game, let alone a lost sale”. Understanding this, the company is getting ready to shift its approach so that it rewards the customer rather than punishing everyone for the sins of pirates."

So just because somebody pirates a game, doesn't mean it was lost money because more than likely they would have never bought it in the first place.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/EA-Admits-Pirated-Copies-Do-Not-Equal-Lost-Sales-94516.shtml


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## dragon2309

I'd like to let everyone know, infrcations have been issued to certain posts inside this thread for people actively stating that they pirate software/music/films etc...

The thread OP asked for your general opinions oon pirating in general, there are plenty of ways you can go about that without stating that you pirate things and that you do it all the time... *cough*kesava*cough*

Whilst im here, I may as well point you all to Rule #1 of the http://www.computerforum.com/52038-forum-rules.html

If people continue, this thread will be closed.


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## tlarkin

gamerman4 said:


> Funny, I just found this on digg. Basically part of what I just said.
> 
> "Electronic Arts says that it understands how an illegally downloaded copy is not, in any way, a copy that was lost as a sale to the company. Mariam Sughayer, who is working for the corporate communications
> department of EA, says that “Stepping aside from the whole issue of DRM, people need to recognize that every BitTorrent download doesn’t represent a successful copy of a game, let alone a lost sale”. Understanding this, the company is getting ready to shift its approach so that it rewards the customer rather than punishing everyone for the sins of pirates."
> 
> So just because somebody pirates a game, doesn't mean it was lost money because more than likely they would have never bought it in the first place.
> 
> http://news.softpedia.com/news/EA-Admits-Pirated-Copies-Do-Not-Equal-Lost-Sales-94516.shtml



That is subjective and it depends on how your company projects sales, and losses.  It can be easily skewed to say the opposite.  Statistics is not an exact science, and if you have ever worked for any sort of giant corporation you would know about being in the black and the red, and potential loss profit and potential lost dollars, and even when yielding a profit you can still claim a loss.  I am not saying I agree with it all, but I am simply saying everything from that article from EA is subjective and does not represent how everyone does business.

I don't really care how people put it, if you can't pay for it don't buy it.  If you think it is over priced then don't buy it.  I haven't bought a blu ray player yet and don't plan on it until it is cheap because I don't need it.


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## Vizy

dragon2309 said:


> I'd like to let everyone know, infrcations have been issued to certain posts inside this thread for people actively stating that they pirate software/music/films etc...
> 
> The thread OP asked for your general opinions oon pirating in general, there are plenty of ways you can go about that without stating that you pirate things and that you do it all the time... *cough*kesava*cough*
> 
> Whilst im here, I may as well point you all to Rule #1 of the http://www.computerforum.com/52038-forum-rules.html
> 
> If people continue, this thread will be closed.



called it.


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## patrickv

tlarkin said:


> I can't say that I feel sorry for you when your system crashes or you get a virus from using crappy pirated software.



Dunno if that's for me but my system has never crashed due to a pirated software.... crashes from viruses yeah but that was my own doing..




tlarkin said:


> If you can't afford it perhaps you shouldn't have it.


Oh really ? You say that because you can afford it and thats cause it's available to you. I'd make a trip to the local store right now and i bet you if i go buy Encarta 2007, it's a copied DVD. See.. in some ways it's not the we shouldn't have it...it's just we don't have means to purchase legit stuff. we have those software to get the job done, though in the backend we are pirating...
That's what i always tell everyone, we are one of the most pirated countries in the world but that is because we do not have legit software. I would be very happy if one day i could shop and see a fully licensed copy of XP/Vista all boxed up in the shelves....

anyhoo my job is done here


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## Twist86

I got Vista for free as OEM install from my boss so its legal BUT 400 dollars for a OS is BULL**** especially when they force you to upgrade like they did for vista and DX10 + vista only games etc.

Then no more then a few years later 7 will be out and charge another 400-500 dollars for it.

I mean if I bought Vista x64  instead of having a awesome boss I would have spent 50% of my total cost on my gaming PC on a single OS I remove 80% of the stuff from.

Total rip off really.




Vizy93 said:


> It's illegal. I've never pirated it. And it's not worth it. You can't do updates and stuff when u need to, its just retarded, just go ahead and buy it. Go ahead and pirate whatever else though (just keep that news to urself).



Actually a simple google search shows MONTH BY MONTH updates for Vista all versions. In most cases pirates have a better time then legit buyers....need I even say EA? I always have problems with their games because of DRM etc...yet my buddy who pirates is enjoying the game the same day as it was released no DRM issues.

They are so worried about stopping pirates that they treat legit buyers like me like a pirate....so are they surprised sales are down?

I support good gaming companies though...but now I mostly buy through steam..EA and UBI don't deserve my money and I don't wanna even play their games anymore.


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## massahwahl

chibicitiberiu said:


> I really don't get it. Why would people pirate windows, when there is linux for free and much better than windows?
> Why create games and software for windows when linux is simply superior and the number of users for it is growing?
> I understand that windows has eye candy that attracts people, but why choose and use an operating system that is so vulnerable to malware and so on??
> Why Windows? What does it have that linux doesn't?
> 
> Sometimes i don't know why I am using windows and not going to linux. Maybe because there are cool games for windows, but why aren't games for linux too???
> 
> With linux getting easier and easier to use and the need of the console becoming smaller, i really don't know why people prefer windows...
> 
> 
> And now if people would stop pirating windows, many would switch to linux because not many buy software these days, so many would get linux for free instead of windows that is not free.



amen


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## Sir Travis D

Windows 7 beta has been t.o0rented, but I will never download that. We are going to Detroit on January 22nd to get a $99 windows 7 beta 1 dvd. It's just not the same as buying it if you download it.


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## ducis

without pirating there would be no DRM, fewer console only games, and I believe devs would put more time into making better software. We as consumers have dug quite a hole fore ourselves


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## tlarkin

Sir Travis D said:


> Windows 7 beta has been t.o0rented, but I will never download that. We are going to Detroit on January 22nd to get a $99 windows 7 beta 1 dvd. It's just not the same as buying it if you download it.



Why on earth would you want to run a Windows Beta OS?  I have a copy of every release beta from my MSDN subscription at work, and they all suck compared to real OSes.


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## Jet

My thoughts:
I don't illegally download anything. I have a personal conviction that pirating is stealing--whatever it is. From Windows to a song, it's wrong. Have I always been perfect? No. Every once in a while I'll scan through my iTunes library and see something that I borrowed from a friend but forgot to delete--it's a good reminder to keep vigilant. 

Another thought. Consider Adobe CS. Why do you think that it costs so much? Yes, it's true. People pirate it because it is so expensive, and then try and explain it away, saying that if Adobe didn't charge so much they would buy it. And, I can imagine, there are people out there that would, however, I have reason to believe that it's not a problem of numbers, but rather concept.

People that pirate are their own problem--to a certain extent, the reason certain software or music costs so much is that people pirate it. In reality, when you pirate, you are forcing the price to go up--companies have to make money, and in order to do that, they need to sell their product. It would be nice if everyone paid--then the per item cost would be lower. However, those who illegally download are forcing the people who legally purchase content to pay for their share as well.


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## Dystopia

I thnk pirating is wrong. I used to copy games when they had no copy protection, but we never sold them. EVER. And after being a victim of someone selling, I know I never will. I also will not copy games anymore. What I do now is just copy the game disk since my older brother and I ussaully buy the games together, and I think it is just fine


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## Goose

Personally, I'm not against pirating in certain situations I suppose. But I've generally just used it to try out things. If I like a companies product, I'm more apt to pay for things that company makes in the future because I know they do quality work.

I've bought alot of programs from a bunch of different places because most are reasonably priced(like Windowblinds for example). Some however are begging to be pirated because of their outrageous prices. I mean, $700 for Photoshop? Really? 

Windows itself is a little high, but generally not TOO outrageous. 

Bottom line, make a good product and you'll get my money.


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## busweb

In many countries piracy is normal. I am against it. I think it's about principles and priorities. We are talking about poverty... but from one point forward it's not about lack of money, but on what you would like to spend your money. So pirating software gives you opportunity to spend more money on what you want.


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## spazz31585

i personally don't take the risk of pirating because i have a family, so i do everything i can to not risk going to jail.

but i can understand it in some situations. 
a friend of mine was unable to work for 2 years because of a knee injury. his computer messed up and he didn't get a windows cd when he first bought his computer. he had 2 kids, was getting $400 or so on food stamps and i think $250 from 'welfare'. both kids were in diapers, and all their pictures were digital pictures. in that case, i understand his reasoning for pirating windows. but, he did the right thing when he went back to work and bought a legit copy.

and i know alot of people that will download songs from a new cd and listen to them before actually going out and spending the money on it only to find out the cd sucked.
same thing goes for windows. why shell out $400 on a OS that doesn't work right or that you don't like, and then not be able to get your money back?

i'm not saying pirating is right. but in some cases, i can understand it. granted that you do the right thing in the end and pay what is owed when you're able to.


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## scooter

spazz31585 said:


> why shell out $400 on a OS that doesn't work right or that you don't like, and then not be able to get your money back?
> 
> i'm not saying pirating is right. but in some cases, i can understand it. granted that you do the right thing in the end and pay what is owed when you're able to.



That's why Microsoft offers up to 120 day-free trial on Vista.


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## spazz31585

scooter said:


> That's why Microsoft offers up to 120 day-free trial on Vista.



didn't know they had bumped it up to 120. i know with xp it was 30.
well, that's not too bad of a trial then i guess. 
i do think that if the price wasn't quite so high, people would be more willing to buy it, regardless of the incompatibility issues that it is known for.
especially considering how long they have been working on vista. by the time it was released it should have been dang near flawless.


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## TFT

Computer piracy is like buying a car and stealing the fuel to run it.


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## Kewl Munky

I think if you bought windows Vista you have every right to windows 7 for free because as Ballmer clearly said windows 7 "IS" vista, but better. So that means that they could easily give you a free fix to your software in a download sort of like a service pack. But instead windows will charge you to make your software work correctly liket hey did with windows 95 and 98, and ME and XP. Basically, the lesson is is to say **** it to every other version of windows and wait for the fixed one to come out. Microsoft just ****s people over for money everytime they turn around, that's why they make money.

Honestly, if I have to pay for windows 7 I'll either just keep vista or possibly do something I'd really hate to do to obtain it >.> Windows 7 should be given to me and everyone else who bought Vista as an apology.


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## Sir Travis D

"Why on earth would you want to run a Windows Beta OS? I have a copy of every release beta from my MSDN subscription at work, and they all suck compared to real OSes." nooo lol, I will never open the DVD. I will save it, there are no known for sale Windows 95 Chicago beta CD's left for sale. A windows 7 beta will be worth a fortune in a few decades.


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## Twist86

ducis said:


> without pirating there would be no DRM, fewer console only games, and I believe devs would put more time into making better software. We as consumers have dug quite a hole fore ourselves



One could argue though...why cater to pirates? Most of them wouldn't even pay to play the game anyways. They just download it because they can.

A lot of companies that don't invest in DRM make a lot of money per title they release because they know stopping pirates wont work + they wont even buy the game with perfect DRM.

They still make their paper and keep the customer happy.


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## porterjw

Why is this even a Thread? And for that matter, how did it get to be 8 pages?

Black and white; legal or not. Period. Our coffee-talk is a moot point.


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## brian

Kewl Munky said:


> I think if you bought windows Vista you have every right to windows 7 for free because as Ballmer clearly said windows 7 "IS" vista, but better. So that means that they could easily give you a free fix to your software in a download sort of like a service pack. But instead windows will charge you to make your software work correctly liket hey did with windows 95 and 98, and ME and XP. Basically, the lesson is is to say **** it to every other version of windows and wait for the fixed one to come out. Microsoft just ****s people over for money everytime they turn around, that's why they make money.
> 
> Honestly, if I have to pay for windows 7 I'll either just keep vista or possibly do something I'd really hate to do to obtain it >.> Windows 7 should be given to me and everyone else who bought Vista as an apology.



Watch your language!

Swearing (even staring it out) is against forum rules.

http://www.computerforum.com/89001-swearing-computer-forum.html


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## tremmor

DirtyD86 said:


> i will be the first to admit that piracy is like pandoras box for me. and apparently a lot of other people too considering i just saw a statistic saying 1,000,000 copies of spore were bought legitimately, and 400,000 were pirated. the only downside of getting things for free that i can think of is that someone behind the game/song/movie/software sweat blood to ensure you were able to enjoy it as much as you do. as a result this person might not get the compensation they deserve for their efforts, and ultimately might become disgruntled and stop making things for you to download altogether. it is already starting to happen to PC games. the market is slowly dying off and one day new PC games might be a rarity.
> 
> human nature isn't going anywhere, so as long as people have the means to do it, it is going to be done. and the means will always be there, because for every brilliant mind that thinks of a new way to make it harder for you to pirate the latest game, there are 40 equally brilliant minds that don't want to pay for said game. some companies like EA and microsoft are so disgustingly massive that i don't think any amount of piracy short of 100% would slow them down at all, but smaller more indie games are definitely hurting.
> 
> i've gone way off topic as i usually do. pirating windows is bad, and illegal, but microsoft could go the next 500 years without making a cent and still have enough money to give each high level executive a 20 million a year allowance for hookers and lap dances.



___________________________________________________________

very good. your being honest. 
i would also like to say many want it and many are not willing to pay. then again unless your making a sheet load of money, why would you buy anything when you can get for free. the sources are there, just not here. worse is you won't use it. mostly..... this is the case. 

Satellite tv, movies, operating systems and mostly programs. Operating systems, ummm, from what ive seen in the past (do not take updates).its easier to get a corp release. or mostly you better not or will be shut down. they are clever ya know. Hackers are in it for the challenge, very private and bored. they like symbolic debugging, macro assemblers and proggies like softice and periscope. geeks like to figure out what there talking about and enjoy the challenge of how to do it and what they are talking about in the first place. (get it working, its the challenge. sometime ya have to jump through hoops with some proggie professional software). will they use it. they will download everything in its path and use very little. to much work, no manuals or little documentation and not enough time in a day. its the challenge. they will always be around. you won't change it. 

interesting people though.  gut level. 

they do not do anything else. they don't watch tv, computers is all they do.


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## ronster667

i dont really care for it


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## DCIScouts

Ok, I believe that this thread has been allowed to run its course, and pirating is illegal and against forums rules.  'Nuff said, thread closed.


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## mep916

In just in time.


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## brian

Hehe did someone forget to lock it?


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## FairDoos

SAME =]

I do agree with Kewl though Windows 7 should be offered to Vista users for Free or atleast a smaller price than what it is going to be on the high street.


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## speedyink

Smug daagen lager sanabe wishen washen storginblachgh.


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## TFT

There!


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