# "Free WIFI"(?)



## PPBart (Mar 8, 2015)

If a small business decides to offer customers "free WIFI", can it do so simply by adding a router to its existing network with no security?  Do such businesses have to pay extra for customer access?


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## beers (Mar 8, 2015)

You could but you wouldn't want to.
Sadly, a lot do.

Usually you will have a segregated segment or VLAN that doesn't allow traffic into the inside network.  Some places are paranoid or don't know how to set up a shared environment and by completely physically separate pieces for the guest network.


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## Geoff (Mar 9, 2015)

Beers said it very well.  You'd likely create a guest VLAN on your network with no interVLAN routing to prevent the guest VLAN from communicating with devices on your other VLAN(s).  You'd then configure a trunk port on your switch with your multiple VLANs, and connect your AP.  Then you would configure your AP with multiple SSIDs and tag your guest VLAN for the guest SSID.


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## PPBart (Mar 9, 2015)

Geoff said:


> Beers said it very well...



LOL!  I do appreciate the replies, but I'll need a more basic (IOW, network novice) explanation to understand.


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## Geoff (Mar 9, 2015)

PPBart said:


> LOL!  I do appreciate the replies, but I'll need a more basic (IOW, network novice) explanation to understand.


How large is your small business?  How many guests do you expect to be online at once on your public WiFi?


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## PPBart (Mar 9, 2015)

Geoff said:


> How large is your small business?  How many guests do you expect to be online at once on your public WiFi?



It's not my business.  A friend is in the process of establishing a walk-in medical clinic (just signed the lease and contractors have started the internal construction). We had lunch together a couple of days ago and were discussing all the multitude of details she has to take care of.  I do have some experience with building contractors, so she wanted my opinion/advice on some suggestions from her contractors.  Somewhere in that discussion she mentioned that she planned to provide WIFI access for folks sitting in the waiting room.  I got to thinking about that later, and how businesses do that, which prompted my query here.  

As for the size of her clinic, all I know is the building has about 1800 sq ft which will be divided up into a front waiting area, several patient treatment rooms, office, storage/records, etc. She has an initial budget based on treating an average of 40(?) patients per day, but I'm sure she hopes that will grow.  As for technology, she plans to have a couple of PCs (one of which I assume will be a server) and a couple of tablets running some medical-practice software package.

Just from thinking more about this as I type, I have to wonder about the advisability of allowing any kind of public access to the network in a setting like that...


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## beers (Mar 9, 2015)

What network equipment are they buying?


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## voyagerfan99 (Mar 9, 2015)

With the growth of the medical field moving to electronic records, etc. establishing a wireless network would not be hard to do, especially with decent enterprise level networking equipment. I'll revisit this thread later tonight to expand on my thoughts.


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## beers (Mar 9, 2015)

My work offers a cloud EHR solution if you're looking for one of those too.

Depending on the budget you all have we (here at CF) can offer some equipment and configuration suggestions too that would normally cost you a consulting fee.  Definitely just don't settle for some random consumer grade netgear or something though.


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## PPBart (Mar 10, 2015)

beers said:


> What network equipment are they buying?



Sorry, I really have no idea...  but maybe I could find out next time I speak to my friend.



beers said:


> ...Depending on the budget you all have we (here at CF) can offer...




OK, now I'm getting interested.  What is a "cloud EHR solution"?


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## Geoff (Mar 10, 2015)

This is a complicated situation.  You may have similar buildings which have a proper network setup with industry-grade hardware, servers, VLANs, etc., and on the other hand you could have a similar business which is using a small business Linksys wireless router from Best Buy.  It really comes down to if you want to have a proper network installed, or get by with the bare minimum, as well as the budget you allocate for this project.

You may want to hire a network installer to come to your business to survey, install, and configure your network, as it sounds like you guys are a bit over your head.  You can get by with a relatively cheap option if you can figure out the installation and configuration yourself however.  I'd recommend a Ubiquity Edge Router, managed gigabit switch(es), and 2-3 Ubiquity UniFi APs.

Something similar to this should be enough to get you started with creating VLANs, connecting client workstations, as well as providing guest WiFi access:

https://www.ubnt.com/edgemax/edgerouter-poe/
https://www.ubnt.com/unifi/unifi-ap-ac/
http://www.amazon.com/Netgear-ProSafe-GS724T-300-24-port-Gigabit/dp/B00358MP02


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## beers (Mar 10, 2015)

PPBart said:


> OK, now I'm getting interested.  What is a "cloud EHR solution"?



Software that manages electronic health records.  Being 'cloud based' means you don't have to manage the server/database/similar and it's stored within the provider.



> I'd recommend a Ubiquity Edge Router, managed gigabit switch(es), and 2-3 Ubiquity UniFi APs.



I'd do that too, you generally get the best cost/performance although if you aren't hugely familiar with networking the setup itself would be intimidating.


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## voyagerfan99 (Mar 10, 2015)

Yeah Ubiquity was what I was going to recommend.


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## Geoff (Mar 10, 2015)

beers said:


> I'd do that too, you generally get the best cost/performance although if you aren't hugely familiar with networking the setup itself would be intimidating.


I have the Edge Router Lite at home, works very well, but as you said it's a pain to setup even for someone with networking knowledge.  They have their own unique layout so it took me a few hours to configure.


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## beers (Mar 11, 2015)

Geoff said:


> They have their own unique layout



Unless you're a fan of JunOS!


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## PPBart (Mar 11, 2015)

Geoff said:


> This is a complicated situation.... sounds like you guys are a bit over your head...Something similar to this should be enough to get you started...



I spoke with my friend again this morning (she called me about some other matters) and I took the opportunity to ask some questions about her plans.  I apparently misunderstood earlier about the guest WIFI -- she says no plans to offer that.  As for the other network issues, she seems to have no real plan yet beyond getting proposals from the local ISPs (Eatel and Cox).  Her concept for the network in her clinic is indeed very minimal:  2 or 3 desktops, gateway, a couple of tablets, running a medical practice software, data will be stored in cloud (supposedly, this is the setup in another clinic she's familiar with).  Now -- and this is why I'm posting this -- she's asking me to help her with the technology for the clinic, so your "something similar to this" post may prove very helpful!


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## Agent Smith (Mar 12, 2015)

Why can't he just bridge a router with WIFI and use a subnet instead of a vLAN?


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## Cromewell (Mar 12, 2015)

Network segregation. Generally you don't want your guests to be able to poke around on your network.


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## Geoff (Mar 12, 2015)

Agent Smith said:


> Why can't he just bridge a router with WIFI and use a subnet instead of a vLAN?


We were under the assumption this was going to be a fairly large network with 40 or so guest users plus local users, in which case a consumer router would not work well under these conditions.  This would work for a home user, but not a business.


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## beers (Mar 12, 2015)

Agent Smith said:


> Why can't he just bridge a router with WIFI and use a subnet instead of a vLAN?



I thought you were a security guy? 

Also, lol, bridge a router with WiFi?  The access point already bridges wired and wireless segments.  On another vlan you would also have another subnet so that's wholly redundant.  If you just overlapped subnets on the same vlan you could easily see all of the broadcast traffic on that network and would have real problems trying to assign DHCP addresses...


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## PCunicorn (Mar 12, 2015)

If guests aren't gonna be logging in, I'd just use a couple high end consumer grade routers.


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## beers (Mar 12, 2015)

PCunicorn said:


> If guests aren't gonna be logging in, I'd just use a couple high end consumer grade routers.



For about the same price you can go with Ubiquiti equipment and a smart switch and can have infinitely more network flexibility.  

You might as well do it right the first time.


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## PPBart (Mar 13, 2015)

When I mentioned 40 patients earlier, I meant the total number of patients who would be treated during a full day, not potential guest users.  Anyway, patients will not be granted guest access – at least, not initially.  I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that my friend – think I’ll just call her “boss” from now on -- will change her mind about that later, since free WiFi has become so common.  

I certainly agree with the comment about doing it right the first time.  However, this seems like a simple setup and the boss will certainly challenge unnesessary complexity or system capabilities well beyond what is/will be needed.  I’ve given this some thought, done some reading/research, and my first ideas about the  network design are: 
	ISP-provided DOCSIS3 Modem
	Router/Access Point    (to service potential 2-3 tablets or laptops in use by staff)
	Switch    (Would an unmanaged switch not be adequate?  What useful benefit would a managed switch provide?)
	Desktop-1  (front desk / reception)
	Desktop-2   (nurse station)
	Desktop-3   (office)
	Laser printer  (maybe 2)
	VoIP  (?)


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## Geoff (Mar 13, 2015)

PPBart said:


> When I mentioned 40 patients earlier, I meant the total number of patients who would be treated during a full day, not potential guest users.  Anyway, patients will not be granted guest access – at least, not initially.  I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that my friend – think I’ll just call her “boss” from now on -- will change her mind about that later, since free WiFi has become so common.
> 
> I certainly agree with the comment about doing it right the first time.  However, this seems like a simple setup and the boss will certainly challenge unnesessary complexity or system capabilities well beyond what is/will be needed.  I’ve given this some thought, done some reading/research, and my first ideas about the  network design are:
> 	ISP-provided DOCSIS3 Modem
> ...


I hate to say it, but if that's all you expect for client usage a high end consumer wireless router would probably suffice.  If you do end up wanting guest network access, expect to replace your wireless router with a dedicated router and wireless access points, such as the Ubiquity products we mentioned earlier.


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## beers (Mar 13, 2015)

What are you looking at for a voip setup?


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## PPBart (Mar 13, 2015)

Geoff said:


> ... a high end consumer wireless router would probably suffice...



So we could delete the switch, just use the router?  The boss insists that the PCs all be on cable, but the printer(s) can be wireless -- gotta have enough ports to plug everything in.


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## PPBart (Mar 13, 2015)

beers said:


> What are you looking at for a voip setup?



No idea, haven't discussed that yet. I've never dealt with it, so any advice is welcome.


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## beers (Mar 13, 2015)

I mean what are your goals?  Do you want to have desk phones or soft phones, or what is your reason for having voip?  Given the previous discussion it sounds like 'the boss' wouldn't approve sufficient funding for a reasonable voip PBX if they can't even fund a basic enterprise grade network, so 

Edit:
You may want to consider something like this : http://grasshopper.com/


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## PPBart (Mar 13, 2015)

beers said:


> I mean what are your goals? ...



As I said, we haven't discussed VoIP yet, I just assume that will be part of the plan. I think the expectation is to purchase bundled internet/phone service from the ISP (either Eatel or Cox in this area); however, to my knowledge we haven't even contacted either of them yet.  Probably there will be desk phones at front desk, nurse station, office. 

I'm confused by your comment that "Given the previous discussion it sounds like 'the boss' wouldn't approve sufficient funding for a reasonable voip PBX if they can't even fund a basic enterprise grade network..."  I've known her for several decades, she's smart (PhD) and experienced (20+ years in medicine) and knows what she wants from this project. So, she's not willing to waste money but I'm sure she is quite willing to fund whatever is needed to meet her objectives.  That said, what would you propose as a "basic enterprise network" for a rural medical clinic staffed with 1-2 nurse practitioners and 2 admins, projected daily patient traffic of about 40-50, running EHR software?

Editted: And thanks for the link to Grasshopper -- that looks interesting!


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## PPBart (Jun 8, 2015)

Geoff said:


> I hate to say it, but if that's all you expect for client usage a high end consumer wireless router would probably suffice.  If you do end up wanting guest network access, expect to replace your wireless router with a dedicated router and wireless access points, such as the Ubiquity products we mentioned earlier.



To resume this thread...

Build-out for the clinic is progressing nicely, should be essentially done by mid-June.  Plan is to open for patients on July 6th.  Technology needs have also been clarified and refined a bit. This is a small rural clinic with a max staff of 3 (doctor, nurse, admin) employing two desktop PCs, 1-2 tablets, one shared printer.  Primary software will be cloud-based EHR and MS Office Pro.  ISP will be Eatel.  No plans for public WiFi, but there may be a need for guest access for a second doc who may be using space to treat his patients one day per week.

Like suggested by Geoff above, the network advisor for Eatel said a high-end router would be sufficient and suggested Netgear Nighthawk or Linksys WRT1900AC or equivalent.  Any experience here to consider choosing either of those?


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## C4C (Jun 8, 2015)

+1 for the Netgear Nighthawk. I love it, it's speedy, and the interface is easy to use of you need to set stuff up. You can also set up to 4 bands of wifi (2.4 & 5GHz bands with guest networks for both).


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