# Thoughts on freon and liquid cooling ...



## Sepzis

Well i'm building a freon cooling system for a PC build. 
I'm wondering if freon cooling on the CPU will damage the motherboard in any way? gonna use a asus maximus IV extreme-z MoBo. Also any tips on where to get decent liquid cooled ram sticks?


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## Cromewell

Can you even get freon anymore? I thought (H)CFCs stopped being sold.


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## Yeti

Cromewell said:


> Can you even get freon anymore? I thought (H)CFCs stopped being sold.


CFCs such as R12 and R22 haven't been used commercially for a while. Their HFC replacements, such as R134a, are most common now. "Freon" is really a trademark of DuPont and their refrigerants, but people often use it as a synonym for "refrigerant" similar to Kleenex and "facial tissue".



			
				Sepzis said:
			
		

> Well i'm building a freon cooling system for a PC build. I'm wondering if freon cooling on the CPU will damage the motherboard in any way? gonna use a asus maximus IV extreme-z MoBo. Also any tips on where to get decent liquid cooled ram sticks?


 What exactly are you planning on doing? What type of system? How cold?


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## tremmor

Im guessing its still the same. I was buying 50lb cans of 22 and 12 then. They stopped selling it years ago to me because i was not licensed. I was able to go into a place like Murrays auto parts and buy a 1 pound can. They still might do it and available at a parts supplier. Just guessing though.


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## Juggalo23451

cooling you ram is a waste if you want to use freon might as well look at peltier cooling


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## Sepzis

Well I was thinking about using freon, because i actually have freon at my disposal. The main question is. Will the low temp endanger the MoBo's durability? And for the ram sticks and other parts, i was thinking about using aftermarked LQ cooling, like exos, or something.


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## Juggalo23451

Sepzis said:


> Well I was thinking about using freon, because i actually have freon at my disposal. The main question is. Will the low temp endanger the MoBo's durability? And for the ram sticks and other parts, i was thinking about using aftermarked LQ cooling, like exos, or something.



if you do that route you will have to ensure your mb is properly insulated from condensation.  again no reason to cool the ram if this is going to be a 24/7 rig.


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## Sepzis

Juggalo23451 said:


> if you do that route you will have to ensure your mb is properly insulated from condensation.  again no reason to cool the ram if this is going to be a 24/7 rig.



Not sure what you meen by 24/7 rig. I'm looking to overclock to the max. This rig is ment to be a bit overkill.


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## ScottALot

Sepzis said:


> Not sure what you meen by 24/7 rig. I'm looking to overclock to the max. This rig is ment to be a bit overkill.



24/7 rig meaning you can turn it off/on as you please like a regular computer. Usually this title is only available to those who air cool, water cool, phase change, or TEC cool. Freon doesn't seem to be viable for 24/7 use.


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## Yeti

Sepzis said:
			
		

> Well I was thinking about using freon, because i actually have freon at my disposal.


I would argue that "freon" (still not sure which refrigerant you're referring to) is relatively easy to acquire. What you're planning to do with it is the question.



			
				ScottALot said:
			
		

> 24/7 rig meaning you can turn it off/on as you please like a regular computer. Usually this title is only available to those who air cool, water cool, phase change, or TEC cool. Freon doesn't seem to be viable for 24/7 use.


Are you saying that phase change and "freon" cooling are different?


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## Gary1

Yeti said:


> I would argue that "freon" (still not sure which refrigerant you're referring to) is relatively easy to acquire. What you're planning to do with it is the question.
> 
> Are you saying that phase change and "freon" cooling are different?



Apparently OP works with Air conditioning or something???? I don't know where he is getting it, or how he got it. His question was Does he need to protect his motherboard and how?? I am sure he is talking about the kind of Freon that is cold, and I am sure it's not important to know what he has.


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## Gary1

Does anyone know where to find one of these?

But with 1155 socket or 2011 socket.


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## Gary1

I asked someone I know who knows more about this stuff than I do.He said condensation on the pipes that carry the coolant is a concern as well.


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## just a noob

The cryo-z was kind of a flop, it just couldn't hold a decent sized load. The unit was designed back in 2006/2007(I think) for a fairly low heat load. You'd be better off finding a phase change builder to make you a custom unit tuned to your needs.


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## Yeti

Gary1 said:
			
		

> Apparently OP works with Air conditioning or something????


Even if that is the case, that doesn't necessarily mean much.


			
				Gary1 said:
			
		

> I don't know where he is getting it, or how he got it. His question was Does he need to protect his motherboard and how??


And that question has been answered: As with all sub-ambient cooling, condensation must be accounted for. Otherwise, it is doubtful that any other thermal issues would arise.


			
				Gary1 said:
			
		

> I am sure he is talking about the kind of Freon that is cold, and I am sure it's not important to know what he has.


As opposed to the non-cold kind? So him having R134a, boiling point at 1 Bar of -26C, is the same as having some R14, boiling point at 1 Bar of -128C? Regardless, I would have more confidence in him knowing what he is doing if he knew what type of refrigerant he had and how he was going to use it (single stage? cascade? what compressor?). So yes, instead of answering his question I am trying to gauge if this is time wasted on everyone's part. To the OP, Sepzis, I apologize if you do have a vapor compression system in mind and have experience with refrigerants, but your statements don't lead me to believe this. Having refrigerant on hand is typically the least of your worries.


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## just a noob

You've probably been asked this before, but are you an HVAC tech or something Yeti?


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## Yeti

just a noob said:


> You've probably been asked this before, but are you an HVAC tech or something Yeti?


No, I'm an engineer and I work on things much colder than HVAC systems .


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## just a noob

Yeti said:


> No, I'm an engineer and I work on things much colder than HVAC systems .



*insert joke about an ex wife here*

Anyway, what do you think about this? http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?215573-5-Stage-Cascade-Made-in-Germany-!/page21


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## Gary1

I am only here to get answers and no I am not into HVAC but I know a guy who is awesome with the stuff. However instead of taking this subject to him I am thinking about something like the cryo-z. It might not be so easy either. 
I would like to know do you need to do something to protect the MOBO?? If so how?? And as for the Freon I will be using what ever A) is installed in phase change, or B) someone more qualified than me to purchase. Sorry for being short but I am not concerned with Freon until I know what I am doing with the components I do have. Honestly If I go ahead and get someone to make this for me and it crashes my mobo and CPU then I have to start over. Also it would be nice to know if its even a good idea.


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## Yeti

just a noob said:
			
		

> Anyway, what do you think about this? http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...rmany-!/page21


Yeah, I've followed that site off-and-on for many years. A lot of incredible systems on there including that 5 stage cascade.


			
				Gary1 said:
			
		

> I would like to know do you need to do something to protect the MOBO?? If so how??


Yes, you need to protect against condensation. There are two goals to this: 
1) insulating any cold (or potentially cold, e.g. think of conduction paths) to make surface temperatures higher (ideally above the dew point) and 
2) eliminating any air pockets that would contain condensible water vapor (for my work I use high-vac systems which, unfortunately can't be done, at least very easily, with computers)
To accomplish this you can use various closed cell foams (e.g. neoprene) and formable dielectric "putties" (e.g. rubber eraser). The site that just a noob linked is a good place to look for various methods and advice for low temperature computer cooling.



			
				Gary1 said:
			
		

> And as for the Freon I will be using what ever A) is installed in phase change, or B) someone more qualified than me to purchase. Sorry for being short but I am not concerned with Freon until I know what I am doing with the components I do have. Honestly If I go ahead and get someone to make this for me and it crashes my mobo and CPU then I have to start over.


When thinking up a system, I would recommend starting with your goals - what do you want it to do (temperature? potential loading? running 24/7?)? Then you can choose a compressor, refrigerant, etc. that will accomplish your goals.



			
				Gary1 said:
			
		

> Also it would be nice to know if its even a good idea.


Sure, its a good idea if you want to heavily overclock your computer and you have the necessary money, time, and patience (or just lots of money).


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## Sepzis

Back to the original question.. Will the low temp damage the mobo over time. I would think a mobo isnt ment for extremely low temps. But can they handle it?


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## Yeti

Sepzis said:
			
		

> Back to the original question.. Will the low temp damage the mobo over time. I would think a mobo isnt ment for extremely low temps. But can they handle it?


Mismatched thermal expansion coefficients or thermal shock, though very unlikely, could damage a board as well as increased brittleness with any internal stresses. There is also a possibility of a motherboard "cold bug" at very low temperatures. However, the motherboard really shouldn't be getting very cold (just how cold you still haven't stated) since you are cooling the CPU, not the motherboard. Cooling the motherboard is just wasted cooling power and raises the lowest achievable CPU temperature, not to mention the additional area in which condensation must be accounted for. Short answer - no, low temps shouldn't be an issue for the motherboard over time.


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## Okedokey

We used to use Freon to clean jet engine parts   I thought it had been banned too?

Anyway, this seems like a massive overkill, but hey - im not one to talk 

To the OP, have you got plans or schematics to show how you are going to do it?


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## MMM

Sepzis said:


> Back to the original question.. Will the low temp damage the mobo over time. I would think a mobo isnt ment for extremely low temps. But can they handle it?


If you are talking about the point of chilling part of  a circuit board under normal operating conditions then YES you eventually will do permanent damage.


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