# So, is it illegal to torrent a copy of windows if you already own the OS?



## massahwahl

A few weeks ago I received a *warning* from mep for suggesting that someone use a torrent to download a copy of Windows XP media center edition to replace the cd he had legally purchased and still held a serial code to. I was not aware that this violated Microsofts EULA since, afterall, the OP did say he had bought the OS and his serial code was still active.

Let me clarify before I begin, I in no way argued with meps decision, he was protecting the integrity of the site and violated a rule whether I thought i had or not, I do not disagree with his decision and he knows that I was looking farther into the matter!

Now then, I decided to email Microsoft directly and get to the bottom of the issue and answer two questions: 1) If I lost my OS disk, could I borrow a copy of the same OS from a friend of mine and install it on my pc using my valid key? and 2) If I lost my OS disk, could I use an internet torrent to download an unaltered, untouched copy of the OS and install it using my valid serial key that I purchased previously?

While I admit I could have clarified my questions better to the representative in the early emails, I think by the end we were (somewhat) on the same page. She finally asked me to call Msoft on the matter but I decided I had pursued the matter far enough. So what follows are the email exhchanges back and forth with Microsoft:

Email:
From: me
Sent 04 December 2008
To: Microsoft Support Team
Topic: Question regarding Windows EULA

I just had a very quick question I wanted to clarify. If I legally purchased a copy of a Windows OS and have a valid serial key but down the road lose my installation cd or it becomes otherwise defective, am I allowed to borrow a copy of the same OS installation disc from a friend and reinstall the OS using my legal and valid seral key?

Email:
Response

Hello,

Thank you for contacting Microsoft Customer Service.

I appreciate you for the time taken to write back to us and apologize for misunderstanding what your asking.

Product keys are specific to products and each key is unique it does matter where the disc came from. Each disc is accompanied by their own product keys.

You may obtain a replacement copy of windows from Microsoft.... (this response was repeated in every subsequent reply so I wont bother including it. All she did was offer to get me in contact with someone who could get me a replacement disc)

Thank You,

Shantanu

My reply:

This is all a 'what if' scenario...

I know that what you said is incorrect as I have fixed dozens of computers using my OS installation cds and someone elses serial key and never ran into an issue of the key being locked to a specific disc. I dont know of any software company that requires only certain cds with certain serial keys??

If someone was to download an OS installation disc via a torrent and install it using their serial key would this violate the EULA?

Im not interested in whether or not you think it would work, just if it violates the EULA.

Her reply:

Yes downloading any microsoft product from an internet torrent violates that products EULA.

When you download a Windows operating system via torrent you never know on how many computers is has been priorly (yes she used 'priorly') installed but as per Microsoft Software Licensing Terms for Windows XP and Windows Vista, only one copy could be installed per machine.

My Reply:

Even if a person used their legally purchased microsoft windows serial number and activated it accordingly?

Her Response:

I would like you to know that each Windows operating system has its own product key. A Microsoft product comes with its own product. Hence, you may not be able to install another windows from another cd using your product key. Product key is unique for each windows system

Thank You,

Sujith

(Still dont think they get it...)

My Reply:

I understand that each operating system has its own serial codes, thats not the question.

Here is what im asking:

I legally purchased a valid copy of Windows Vista Ultimate

At some point my disc becomes unusable, so I get online and download an un-tampered with copy OF THE SAME OPERATING SYSTEM and install it using my original serial key.

So it was the exact same OS as what I originally legally purchased only I used a torrect to get another copy to use with my serial key.

Does this violate the EULA?

Her Response:

I appreciate you for the time taken to write back to us with the status of your issue.

for further assistance, please contact our licensing team at....

-end-

So I never called and dont know if its worth the headache of having to deal with another Indian call center know-nothing, but there is as far as I got with exploring issue. Sounds like they may not have understood me completely but they did flat out say it violates the EULA.

So in the end, I was wrong Mep was right.  Good times.


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## GSAV55

sweet, good to know.  What happens if you violate a EULA?  and how would they find out?  I am not promoting, reccomending, or interested in violating EULAs or pirating, I am just embarking on the pursuit of knowledge.


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## massahwahl

GSAV55 said:


> sweet, good to know.  What happens if you violate a EULA?  and how would they find out?  I am not promoting, reccomending, or interested in violating EULAs or pirating, I am just embarking on the pursuit of knowledge.



I dont know, I guess I sort of had a similar question of 'why do they care?'

I mean, you purchased the serial key to unlock the software THATS where they make their money so why does it matter HOW you got the software if you already paid for the key?


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## GSAV55

Yeah, I agree with that.  If anything it saves them money on shipping and the actual CD, unless they try and make u get a new serial code which would be crap.


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## GSAV55

and by crap I mean Micro$oft, lol


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## tlarkin

The DMCA clearly states that it is illegal to transfer one digital property into a different medium with out the consent of the maker if it is a current product.  Meaning if you can still buy it you can't change it into a disk image, a torrent, or whatever.  Plain illegal.

Now, EULAs, hardly stand up in court though, which is the funny part.  However, acquiring something illegal won't either.  

Yes, license keys can be batched to match certain disks.  However, to my knowledge it is mainly to markets.  A disk purchased in Europe won't work with an American license key.  Vista has all sorts of crazy DRM, and with WGA they can also check your build revision (ie, what version of the installer disk you used) versus your product key.

You also won't get an answer from their customer service.  Contact their legal department.  You realize MS has more lawyers than all of us that frequent this site put together, with the exception of maybe Intel_crazy, since he and his family had an army of lawyer friends.


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## GSAV55

Why is it that they hardly stand up in court?


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## tlarkin

GSAV55 said:


> Why is it that they hardly stand up in court?



If you legally pay for something, then given lots of consumer rights certain aspects of the EULA don't hold up so well in court.  I am not a lawyer or copywriter though, so don't take my word for it.  However, there are plenty of parts in the EULA that won't hold up in court.

Piracy is one that will hold up in court though, which is the subject of this thread.


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## speedyink

This is just a case of it technically being illegal because of some bullshit rule that some executive thought of so be smarmy and clear all the loopholes.  The reality?  It causes many angry people, more money for microsoft, as it makes them have to reship the product to the customer, creates more waste, energy and materials for the packaging is needed.

To answer your question, yes, going by the set rule by microsoft, it is illegal.  However, in a logical view standpoint, it saves time, money and energy to do it anyway.


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## teamhex

To just reply, the general answer is, it is illegal. Some people want there movies or documentary's torrented and spread. Now....if Microsoft didn't like you torrenting the copy, and tried to sue you...im sure they could DMCA you but honestly I don't see the problem if you own a copy. I think the worst that can happen is they delete your windows key and or make you pay for another copy. I may be wrong, but legally speaking you are allowed to own a copy of the disk. The law says its ok to burn back up copy's of things up if you have the original you paid for. However the general DMCA rule is uploading(not download) anyone's copyrighted material is illegal, but that doesn't take into account other factors. Theres really no simple answer, let me know if you call em im interested to see what they say. Im sure there just going to say "no you cant" to avoid anything happening. From what I know, it is not illegal to download(if it is then they have to be in your house to see it or its entrapment or hacking), however it is illegal to upload. Ill see if I can scan my DMCA letter. Anyway if you read it, it doesn't say you were downloading it says you were a server.


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## GSAV55

Really, really briefly, what is DMCA?  Like just give me a synopsis of the summary of what it is, haha, thanks.


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## tlarkin

speedyink said:


> This is just a case of it technically being illegal because of some bullshit rule that some executive thought of so be smarmy and clear all the loopholes.  The reality?  It causes many angry people, more money for microsoft, as it makes them have to reship the product to the customer, creates more waste, energy and materials for the packaging is needed.
> 
> To answer your question, yes, going by the set rule by microsoft, it is illegal.  However, in a logical view standpoint, it saves time, money and energy to do it anyway.



By they you mean the government and supreme court right?  Sure the MPAA, RIAA, and big computer companies lobbied for things like the DMCA, but it was the government that made it official, not the CEOs.

Microsoft now wants to go to a yearly subscription fee, where the customer pays a set amount of money each year (to be determined) and it allows them to download whatever versions they want and are available.  Of course it is only in the works nothing official about it yet.

Remember you don't own windows, you lease it for $150 to $300 per a license.


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## tlarkin

GSAV55 said:


> Really, really briefly, what is DMCA?  Like just give me a synopsis of the summary of what it is, haha, thanks.



come man, use your internet skills

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmca


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## massahwahl

A rule is a rule I suppose. I had always been under the impression that when you purchase anything with a serial code, its the code your paying for and not so much the media its connected to. Just like purchasing games online, you can purchase and download the software for free, but its useless till you buy a product key.

I also thought that installing windows without a key would only work for a certain number of days like a trial period till you buy a key, I could be wrong about that though.


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## speedyink

ukulele_ninja said:


> A rule is a rule I suppose. I had always been under the impression that when you purchase anything with a serial code, its the code your paying for and not so much the media its connected to. Just like purchasing games online, you can purchase and download the software for free, but its useless till you buy a product key.
> 
> I also thought that installing windows without a key would only work for a certain number of days like a trial period till you buy a key, I could be wrong about that though.



Exactly how I thought of it.


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## TFT

Exactly Ninja
I purchased AVG paid for suite, downloaded it and they sent the key by Email. Months later my computer messed up so I downloaded it again and used my key. I thought that's how it worked


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## tlarkin

TFT said:


> Exactly Ninja
> I purchased AVG paid for suite, downloaded it and they sent the key by Email. Months later my computer messed up so I downloaded it again and used my key. I thought that's how it worked



That is a subscription based license, and you will have to pay again when your subscription expires.


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## massahwahl

Well hopefully my back and forth with the customer support team at MSoft will clear up some confusion that anyone may have had about the rules and how their EULA works, each company dictates how their software can and cannot be used regardless of how dumb we feel their decision is.

I will say that im liking Ubuntu Linux more and more each day so as not to worry about these goofy qualms with Msoft.


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## mep916

ukulele_ninja said:


> So in the end, I was wrong Mep was right.  Good times.



BTW, you received a Warning, not an infraction. There is a difference.


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## mep916

tlarkin said:


> come man, use your internet skills



http://www.letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=dmca


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## massahwahl

mep916 said:


> BTW, you received a Warning, not an infraction. There is a difference.



Oh! Shoot, sorry man 

*Corrected


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## GSAV55

tlarkin said:


> come man, use your internet skills
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmca





mep916 said:


> http://www.letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=dmca



lol thanks.  It was the end of a long day of work an I didnt feel like it, ha.  Mep, that was really funny btw, lol


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## sg1

Right well just to throw a spanner in the works, .... what happens if someone brings their OEM pc to you to be reinstalled after a virus attack?

Because I use my own OS disks and when I sometimes have to phone M$(india) I tell them it was due to a virus attack/OS corruption and they just redo the product key.


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## Respital

That's reasonable, however i think it would be better if you spoke to someone from North America about it. As they would be able to clearly understand you and there wouldn't a language barrier.


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## sg1

why N America when I live in United Kingdom where laws are different?


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## massahwahl

sg1 said:


> Right well just to throw a spanner in the works, .... what happens if someone brings their OEM pc to you to be reinstalled after a virus attack?
> 
> Because I use my own OS disks and when I sometimes have to phone M$(india) I tell them it was due to a virus attack/OS corruption and they just redo the product key.



They dont make you give them a previous OS key or anything like that? They just give you a new key?


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## sg1

ukulele_ninja said:


> They dont make you give them a previous OS key or anything like that? They just give you a new key?


yes they do and they tie it into the one on the PC case(reactivate it)


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## Respital

sg1 said:


> why N America when I live in United Kingdom where laws are different?



Sorry about that i was referring to ukulele_ninja.


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## massahwahl

Respital said:


> That's reasonable, however i think it would be better if you spoke to someone from North America about it. As they would be able to clearly understand you and there wouldn't a language barrier.



lol, I dont think Ive spoken to an American at a call center for years now. All overseas sadly and they cant ever understand what your saying or vice-versa. Thats the primary reason I dropped Sprint as my mobile carrier, their customer service was so terrible and completely non-understandable.


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## sg1

nothing worse than having a 40 digit activation code read to you by someone who can hardly speak the language you used in the country you made the original phonecall from


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## mep916

Microsoft should offer the ability to go online, enter your product key, validate it, then allow you to download an ISO with the latest Service Pack. Although I believe it's the responsibility of the license holder to backup their disk and protect it, I don't see anything wrong with making it as easy as possible to legally obtain a replacement installation pack.

Ninja, you should reply to the email and see if they offer anything like that. I doubt it, but I'd like to at least read her response.


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## tlarkin

mep916 said:


> Microsoft should offer the ability to go online, enter your product key, validate it, then allow you to download an ISO with the latest Service Pack. Although I believe it's the responsibility of the license holder to backup their disk and protect it, I don't see anything wrong with making it as easy as possible to legally obtain a replacement installation pack.
> 
> Ninja, you should reply to the email and see if they offer anything like that. I doubt it, but I'd like to at least read her response.



They want to do that, but they want to charge you a subscription fee.  Would you be willing to pay say $150/year for that service?


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## mep916

tlarkin said:


> They want to do that, but they want to charge you a subscription fee.  Would you be willing to pay say $150/year for that service?



No, I wouldn't. Outside of this subscription scheme, they should allow license holders to download replacements for free, so long as the holder can provide sufficient evidence that they own the copy. Nothing is fraud-proof, but I'm sure they could come up with a fair system... if they wanted to.


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## Respital

mep916 said:


> No, I wouldn't. Outside of this subscription scheme, they should allow license holders to download replacements for free, so long as the holder can provide sufficient evidence that they own the copy. Nothing is fraud-proof, but I'm sure they could come up with a fair system... if they wanted to.



Just to add to this, they could even use torrents if they aren't willing to spend the money on the extra bandwidth needed for the downloads, as I'd imagine they'd be quite high.


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## tlarkin

mep916 said:


> No, I wouldn't. Outside of this subscription scheme, they should allow license holders to download replacements for free, so long as the holder can provide sufficient evidence that they own the copy. Nothing is fraud-proof, but I'm sure they could come up with a fair system... if they wanted to.



Bandwidth, servers, power and other utilities plus the labor to upkeep is not free.  A subscription fee would almost be a must in their views.


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## Respital

tlarkin said:


> Bandwidth, servers, power and other utilities plus the labor to upkeep is not free.  A subscription fee would almost be a must in their views.



We can only hope they learn one thing from open source, and that's to use torrents to share it. Lets face it all they would have to do is have a few computers upload it to others and maybe offer lets say a cash bonus of $5 for each one iso fully uploaded.


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## Strokes

Heres what I think. You may not have violated the EULA, But in Microsoft's eyes you did. Is Torrenting illegal? In the USA thats debatable, but in Canada it is. I live in the US and so far have not been contacted about it. If the police show up at my house with a warrant, thats one thing. But if it's some slack jaw from a film/music/software/game company with out a warrant, he wont be in business much longer. This is just my opinion and nothing more. 

What would the government rather do? Fight cyber terrorism or see if Joe Shmoe torrent the latest movie/music?


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## Irishwhistle

Strokes said:


> Heres what I think. You may not have violated the EULA, But in Microsoft's eyes you did. Is Torrenting illegal? In the USA thats debatable, but in Canada it is. I live in the US and so far have not been contacted about it. If the police show up at my house with a warrant, thats one thing. But if it's some slack jaw from a film/music/software/game company with out a warrant, he wont be in business much longer. This is just my opinion and nothing more.
> 
> What would the government rather do? Fight cyber terrorism or see if Joe Shmoe torrent the latest movie/music?



Torrenting is 100% legal, and I'm pretty sure someone in Canada can download the latest Linux torrent... maybe I'm wrong though. It's a problem with the people using the torrents, not the torrents themselves.


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## Carlton

mep916 said:


> Microsoft should offer the ability to go online, enter your product key, validate it, then allow you to download an ISO with the latest Service Pack. Although I believe it's the responsibility of the license holder to backup their disk and protect it, I don't see anything wrong with making it as easy as possible to legally obtain a replacement installation pack.
> 
> Ninja, you should reply to the email and see if they offer anything like that. I doubt it, but I'd like to at least read her response.



Making an ISO available for download, that's a real good idea.  I also agree that people should be responsible for backing up the digital media whether it be OS's, music, or dvd's.  It would seem that law makers (DMCA) and as well as software and entertainment vendors don't agree (CSS, Securom etc).  I understand companies needs and desires to protect themselves from pirates but it should not trump any and all rights for customers to protect their purchases.


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## Carlton

Strokes said:


> Is Torrenting illegal? In the USA thats debatable, but in Canada it is.



Torrenting is not illegal in Canada. Sharing movies, music and non free Windows software is a gray area at the very least.  Most frowned upon is making these files available to others.  

I live in Canada and regularly seed various Linux distro's (15MB cable connection  ), it's not even close to illegal.


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## massahwahl

I would totally be on board paying a reasonable annual subscription to MSoft if that meant getting new service packs and OS releases quicker. Maybe it would even kick them in the butt to release good OSs instead of subpar ones.


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## mac550

tlarkin said:


> Microsoft now wants to go to a yearly subscription fee, where the customer pays a set amount of money each year (to be determined) and it allows them to download whatever versions they want and are available.  Of course it is only in the works nothing official about it yet.
> 
> Remember you don't own windows, you lease it for $150 to $300 per a license.



now come on man, what the hell? what is the point in that? if microsoft stop thinking about money (like they dont have enough) for once stupid lives and sat down and thought how to get around people copying windows, then they would see thats it not hard to cut it by at least 50/65%, if not more. 

And they way i look at it, i do own my copy of windows, i paid for it, screw microsoft and there pointless rules.


Sorry to rant but they microsoft do beep me off sometimes



Irishwhistle said:


> Torrenting is 100% legal, and I'm pretty sure someone in Canada can download the latest Linux torrent... maybe I'm wrong though. It's a problem with the people using the torrents, not the torrents themselves.



downloading Linux is legal and Linux programmer let you download and copy it providing you follow the GPL


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## Irishwhistle

mac550 said:


> downloading Linux is legal and Linux programmer let you download and copy it providing you follow the GPL



Yeah, but I was talking about Canada... someone said that torrents can't be used in Canada.


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## mac550

Irishwhistle said:


> Yeah, but I was talking about Canada... someone said that torrents can't be used in Canada.



ok fair enough, i cant comment on that


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## Respital

Irishwhistle said:


> Yeah, but I was talking about Canada... someone said that torrents can't be used in Canada.



Torrents are completely legal here.

Downloading of copyright materials also is, uploading however is not.


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## massahwahl

Im pretty sure that torrents used correctly are legal everywhere, at least, ive never heard of them being illegal anywhere except for malicious activities.


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## GSAV55

in the us is it legal to d/l copyright torrents as long as your not uploading them?


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## massahwahl

GSAV55 said:


> in the us is it legal to d/l copyright torrents as long as your not uploading them?



Im almost positive its illegal to download copyrighted content (unless youve paid to do so of course) in the US.


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## GSAV55

i figured as much, thanks


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## teamhex

Strokes said:


> What would the government rather do? Fight cyber terrorism or see if Joe Shmoe torrent the latest movie/music?


Its really not the government, they made the law, its up to the person who owns the copyright to catch you. Then they send a letter to your ISP that they forward to you saying quit it and delete it. My friends gotten 3 and hasn't been sued so...I don't know what happens after that.  Really I think they are only out to bust people running big servers. Its not worth it for them to catch some poor kid with a dsl connection.


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