# The Hate On Apple Thread



## dave1701

Hi, I just wanted to rant about my distaste of apple products.  Take their computers, say an "imac", one could buy 6 good PCs for that.  These things are pushing $2000.  They're not worth $2000.  Their not worth nearly that much.  Plus, you can't nearly as easily upgrade or addon to apple computers.  All their products are horribly overpriced; Ipods to Imacs.  Their operating system is crap, and you can't overclock them.  The other thing I really dislike the Over-Glorification of Apple products.  What's so great about Ipods?  You can get a MP3 player that is just as good for half their prices.  Is wasting money on overpriced electronics cool?


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## voyagerfan99

Ya know what? I stumbled upon a great website one day that showed how overpriced they are. Too bad I can't find it now.


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## dave1701

What type of voyger fan are you?   Phone, or Star Trek Show?  Just Curious.


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## ganzey

dave1701 said:


> What type of voyger fan are you?   Phone, or Star Trek Show?  Just Curious.



yes, his username is because of a phone


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## Justin

most of us probably already know those facts you stated. it's been discussed numerous times before. 

thread locked in 3... 2...


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## dave1701

a little uptight, isn't it?  This is the off topic section.


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## voyagerfan99

ganzey said:


> yes, his username is because of a phone



Oh yes cause the Voyager is the greatest phone ever! LOL

To answer his original question, Star Trek.


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## speedyink

Posting this on my new iPod touch.  I agree with some points, but they aren't that over priced.  iPods, yes.  I bought the new iPod nano and I feel ripped off.  This iPod touch was free so that made up for it.  I dunno, my main beef with apple is their phones.  Yeah, this thing is pretty snazzy, but damn I'd hate to rely on this thing daily for communicating.  Crappy unreplaceable virtual keyboard, apple id required for everything, apple screening all the apps, which would be ok if they had consistent policies but they are far from that.


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## lucasbytegenius

dave1701 said:


> Hi, I just wanted to rant about my distaste of apple products.  Take their computers, say an "imac", one could buy 6 good PCs for that.  These things are pushing $2000.  They're not worth $2000.  Their not worth nearly that much.  Plus, you can't nearly as easily upgrade or addon to apple computers.  All their products are horribly overpriced; Ipods to Imacs.  Their operating system is crap, and you can't overclock them.  The other thing I really dislike the Over-Glorification of Apple products.  What's so great about Ipods?  You can get a MP3 player that is just as good for half their prices.  Is wasting money on overpriced electronics cool?



I find that Apple puts a lot of thought into their products, from the instant you hit the power button to how the desktop behaves. There is just this polished feel to Apple products that most other competitors can't beat. Maybe you aren't all for visuals, but Windows 7 is still using the same icons that were used in Windows NT and Windows 95. OS X had an icon change. Then there's the hardware: How do you know that Apple doesn't overclock the hardware themselves? Plus they test everything, for instance one friend of mine who used to work there told me that while others would test one stick of RAM in a box, Apple extensively tests each and every one. Their stuff is expensive for a reason.


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## TrainTrackHack

> Maybe you aren't all for visuals, but Windows 7 is still using the same icons that were used in Windows NT and Windows 95.


No


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## lucasbytegenius

Yes it is. Some have been updated, but they are still there.


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## Jet

dave1701 said:


> Hi, I just wanted to rant about my distaste of apple products.  Take their computers, say an "imac", one could buy 6 good PCs for that.  These things are pushing $2000.  They're not worth $2000.  Their not worth nearly that much.  Plus, you can't nearly as easily upgrade or addon to apple computers.  All their products are horribly overpriced; Ipods to Imacs.  Their operating system is crap, and you can't overclock them.  The other thing I really dislike the Over-Glorification of Apple products.  What's so great about Ipods?  You can get a MP3 player that is just as good for half their prices.  Is wasting money on overpriced electronics cool?



You could say they are overpriced.

You can say the iMac is overpriced--if you don't consider the 27" version. The cost of the 27" IPS screen is a huge portion of the computer. Add that cost into your calculations, and you'll arrive at a much more even number. 

Mac Pro: Not overpriced if you compare against other competitor's workstation pcs. Overpriced compared to a computer you built yourself? Of course!

Mac Mini: I'd consider it overpriced. But, I don't have the need for a really tiny computer--it uses laptop parts, so it's going to be more expensive than comparable desktop alternatives.

Macbook: Yep. Probably. 

Macbook Pro: Purely spec wise, overpriced. However, they have a build quality and seamless integration that other company's laptops have never achieved. Add in long battery life, and you have what a lot of people want.


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## Motorcharge

Never before have I seen this discussed.


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## bomberboysk

I'm not really in favor of mac or PC, i try to be as objective as possible. My thoughts:

The Led Backlit IPS display in the 21.5" isn't exactly cheap either. Also honestly you can't really compare an all in one to a custom built desktop...plus the quality of the imacs aluminum casing is really hard to beat.

Mac Mini: Closed hardware system, it definately has its uses, but it does cost more than comparable bookshelf systems.

Macbook Pro: Cost wise, perhaps a bit overpriced. Quality wise...you do get what you pay for, especially the quality of the enclosure and the r&d that goes into apple's products. 

Macbook: IMO, overpriced, but a great system.

The biggest point in favor of Apple's products (IMO) is how everything is easy and simple to use, and just works for the end user. Most people don't want to spend time trying to figure out why something isn't working, while for the most part with apple products you have a secure, stable platform. Not to mention service life of their products, the operating system is not very resource heavy. Take a 5 year old imac running leopard, and a 5 year old desktop running windows 7, and the imac would clearly be the quicker one.


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## 1337dingo

mac is k, but not my favoute


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## Ethan3.14159

dave1701 said:


> Hi, I just wanted to rant about my distaste of apple products.  Take their computers, say an "imac", one could buy 6 good PCs for that.  These things are pushing $2000.  They're not worth $2000.  Their not worth nearly that much.  Plus, you can't nearly as easily upgrade or addon to apple computers.  All their products are horribly overpriced; Ipods to Imacs.  Their operating system is crap, and you can't overclock them.  The other thing I really dislike the Over-Glorification of Apple products.  What's so great about Ipods?  You can get a MP3 player that is just as good for half their prices.  Is wasting money on overpriced electronics cool?


No. Just no.


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## Drenlin

bomberboysk said:


> plus the quality of the imacs aluminum casing is really hard to beat.


Macs have good quality, no argument there, but I get kind of annoyed when people go on about the aluminum frames on them. Aluminum is a soft metal...not any better than the various polycarbonates or magnesium alloys used in other mid-high level laptops. The lid is flimsy as hell for a $1000+ laptop.

It sure does look purdy, though.


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## Shane

i do really like apple products,They look nice...feel good to use etc but because of their prices i refuse to buy anything from them...i mean the prices are just stupid..

iPAD £429,
Iphone £419
imac £999
mac pro £1999 :O

The only decently priced goods stuff from them really are the Ipod shuffle,and Apple TV.

But its because people will keep on paying over the top prices that apple will continue to sell their stuff at such high prices or even worse put them up.


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## Intel_man

Pretty much sums up most apple owners.


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## 1337dingo

Nevakonaza said:


> i do really like apple products,They look nice...feel good to use etc but because of their prices i refuse to buy anything from them...i mean the prices are just stupid..
> 
> iPAD £429,
> Iphone £419
> imac £999
> mac pro *£1999* :O
> 
> The only decently priced goods stuff from them really are the Ipod shuffle,and Apple TV.
> 
> But its because people will keep on paying over the top prices that apple will continue to sell their stuff at such high prices or even worse put them up.



holy smoke thats almost $3000 AU :O


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## Rocko

dave1701 said:


> a little uptight, isn't it?  This is the off topic section.


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## TrainTrackHack

lucasbytegenius said:


> Yes it is. Some have been updated, but they are still there.


...they aren't actually "used" unless you go out of your way to make your system look like Windows 95.


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## Dystopia

I think it is funny how the hate on apple thread turned more into a support apple thread...


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## iGeekOFComedy

Well. The 27 Inch IPS display is worth €1000. So then the computer built in is €700


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## dave1701

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883113142

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824116455

$795 for upgradablity, and a bigger HDD, and overclocking



or this
http://www.amazon.com/Apple-iMac-MC508LL-21-5-Inch-Desktop/dp/B002QQ8IO6

$1100 with no upgradeablity and an annoying operating system.  

Rant continued, Another thing I dislike about apple is their "artsy" operating system.  I want to get things done, not marvel at the astetics of the operating system.  The buttons for example, insted of being smart like windows, the OS has a red, a yellow and a green button for minimizing, maximize, and exiting.  Those who have never used a computer before can at least predict what the windows buttons mean.  Why on earth have just colors like that, that represents the whole OS.  Less getting things done and more enjoying the pretty colors.


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## Jet

dave1701 said:


> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883113142
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824116455
> 
> $795 for upgradablity, and a bigger HDD, and overclocking
> 
> 
> 
> or this
> http://www.amazon.com/Apple-iMac-MC508LL-21-5-Inch-Desktop/dp/B002QQ8IO6
> 
> $1100 with no upgradeablity and an annoying operating system.
> 
> Rant continued, Another thing I dislike about apple is their "artsy" operating system.  I want to get things done, not marvel at the astetics of the operating system.  The buttons for example, insted of being smart like windows, the OS has a red, a yellow and a green button for minimizing, maximize, and exiting.  Those who have never used a computer before can at least predict what the windows buttons mean.  Why on earth have just colors like that, that represents the whole OS.  Less getting things done and more enjoying the pretty colors.



Have you ever used a mac? 

I like how this thread started with "you can buy 6 pcs for the price of one iMac" to "look at how terrible the minimize buttons are...I can't get anything done because of them!"

/end thread


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## Aastii

The monitor you picked is indeed the same size as a larger mac, but not even close to the same specs.

1. The Apple is LED, Viewsonic is LCD

2. Apple one is backlit, Viewsonic is not

3. The Apple one is full Aluminium + glass enclosed, the Viewsonic is plastic

4. The apple one will be made of much, much higher quality components than the Viewsonic. Viewsonic have a reputation for quickly giving you dead pixels or a faulty display, Apple give the opposite.

It is this quality that is the reason for the price, as well as for the lack of upgradeability. Apple have quality control which is why they don't let you just drop in any part. You can't put in a crap PSU, like the desktop you posted has and off brand components, again, like the desktop you posted has.

They also use higher quality peripherals (mouse and keyboard) and their OS comes with much better, and more software than Windows.

I prefer PC over Mac, however I completely understand the justification for the price, and why people like Macs


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## Rocko

dave1701 said:


> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883113142
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824116455
> 
> $795 for upgradablity, and a bigger HDD, and overclocking
> 
> 
> 
> or this
> http://www.amazon.com/Apple-iMac-MC508LL-21-5-Inch-Desktop/dp/B002QQ8IO6
> 
> $1100 with no upgradeablity and an annoying operating system.
> 
> Rant continued, Another thing I dislike about apple is their "artsy" operating system.  I want to get things done, not marvel at the astetics of the operating system.  The buttons for example, insted of being smart like windows, the OS has a red, a yellow and a green button for minimizing, maximize, and exiting.  Those who have never used a computer before can at least predict what the windows buttons mean.  Why on earth have just colors like that, that represents the whole OS.  Less getting things done and more enjoying the pretty colors.




Mac OS is much more intuitive to the human psyche than windows is. Don't get me wrong, I do not swing towards Apple by any means, but imho,  their OS is not a negative by far.


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## fastdude

Rocko said:


> Mac OS is much more intuitive to the human psyche than windows is. Don't get me wrong, I do not swing towards Apple by any means, but imho,  their OS is not a negative by far.



Plus, OS X is cheaper than Windows

OK, that's an extreme example but you get the point I'm trying to make


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## Rocko

fastdude said:


> Plus, OS X is cheaper than Windows
> 
> OK, that's an extreme example but you get the point I'm trying to make



I was going to mention that too!


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## dave1701

You can also keep your monitor for PC, so you can upgrade you PC without throwing away a perfectly good monitor.


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## fastdude

dave1701 said:


> You can also keep your monitor for PC, so you can upgrade you PC without throwing away a perfectly good monitor.



Not all Apples are all-in-one


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## Aastii

dave1701 said:


> You can also keep your monitor for PC, so you can upgrade you PC without throwing away a perfectly good monitor.



You throw away your computer when it gets outdated 0.o

Just because the technology may be old, doesn't mean you have to get rid of it, an iMac will always be good even if just for a video/internet system


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## Mattu

Imo, Macs nowadays are just overpriced PC, like already stated, since they switched to Intel processors. Back in the day though, when they were still Power PC based, they were worth buying since a G4/G5 would blow the top off a Pentium 4 at the same speed. Much like today a i7 3GHz will blow a Pentium 4 3GHz out of the water.


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## Quiltface

I guess I feel the need to throw my 2 cents in on this subject... im sure i have before but i will again.  

Years ago the major apple product in the market was the ipod... i didnt get it, they lacked features that other MP3 players had and were more expensive.  And they were a pain to use IMO, i didnt like itunes, and how when i plugged it into another itunes or a new computer it wiped the songs off of the device. ( i never owned one but people expected me to "set" theirs up)  I had a creative Zen and now i have a sony walkman... and i like them because you can use just drag songs to them. but this isnt the point of my rant.

Now Macs are becoming more and more popular these past few years, and to be honest the last MAC i used was in like 1997 so I cant comment on anything about the computer.  Im sure the os is nice, im sure the hardware is nice.  Something cant be that popular and not deliver.  I agree with most people and say that it is too expensive for a macpc (not the os alone)  And its not that they over price it is that they over sell you... i will never need a 27" screen for my desktop. i sit like 2 feet from my computer i would have to turn my head just to see the whole screen.  But I found my self hating macs for some reason, and its not that I am a windows lover... i mean i use windows because my profession is computer related and that is basically what pays me is knowing windows not mac.

I guess what bugs me the most about mac is the users and the stigma that if you have a mac you are almost in a "higher class" than someone with a pc.  It bugs me when people are like o my mac is so great it just works blah blah i tried to do this the other day on a windows computer and it gave me an error message there is no such thing as error messages on a mac.  Or the apple stickers in peoples car windows... get over yourself its a computer... not anything to be proud of.  I don't think i ever seen someone with a windows flag in their window of their car.

Hopefully this will change, I can care less if you have a MAC or PC... I might give you some half serious jab but I really dont care, its a computer, i use what is good for me... you use what is good for you.  But dont tell me Im wrong.

Linux users used to be bad years ago, they have since got better.  I use linux myself so Im not saying this is everyone.  but the old stereotype about linux users was that they were all A$$holes and arrogant.  that has calmed down some, it still exists today but it has been watered down... lets just hope this happens with mac users.

Im not calling out all Mac users.  I don't want to cluster every mac user into the model I just explained so for those of you who do not fall into this model I apologize.


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## ScOuT

I got screwed by Apple on my ipod...I will never touch an Apple product again. 

Horrible customer service...I called and could not even understand the first lady. Then I hung up and called again and the guy would not let me speak to his boss after a heated argument from both sides...the guy was actually yelling back at me on the phone. 

$320 ipod lasted 2 months...I threw it in the trash. If there is one company I hope fails...that's it.


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## bomberboysk

Aastii said:


> The monitor you picked is indeed the same size as a larger mac, but not even close to the same specs.
> 
> 1. The Apple is LED, Viewsonic is LCD
> 
> *2. Apple one is backlit, Viewsonic is not
> *
> 3. The Apple one is full Aluminium + glass enclosed, the Viewsonic is plastic
> 
> 4. The apple one will be made of much, much higher quality components than the Viewsonic. Viewsonic have a reputation for quickly giving you dead pixels or a faulty display, Apple give the opposite.
> 
> It is this quality that is the reason for the price, as well as for the lack of upgradeability. Apple have quality control which is why they don't let you just drop in any part. You can't put in a crap PSU, like the desktop you posted has and off brand components, again, like the desktop you posted has.
> 
> They also use higher quality peripherals (mouse and keyboard) and their OS comes with much better, and more software than Windows.
> 
> I prefer PC over Mac, however I completely understand the justification for the price, and why people like Macs



Huh? All LCD displays have to be backlit if you want to be able to read them, the imac just has an LED backlight while the Viewsonic is CCFL backlit.

The biggest reason that the imac incurs the price premium that is does, is both the 21.5" and 27" models use an LED backlit in plane switching display, vs the cheaper LED or CCFL backlit TN displays.


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## tlarkin

so full of fail....not sure why I even post in these anymore....

OK time to iron out some facts here..

1)  Dave (OP guy) your monitor comparisons are laughable.  None of them support IPS (in-plane switching) the cheapest IPS screen you are ever going to find is just over $500.  Dell rebrands some, go look at their website.  Then try to build a PC that is spec for spec like an iMac with a 27" IPS LED backlit screen.  Good luck

2)  The stigma of owning a Mac makes you elite is something the PC side just really makes up.  Apple realized a long time ago for them to be successful does not mean that Microsoft or anyone else has to fail.  Apple has concentrated on their product and while, their ads Mac Vs PC make fun of the cliches of computing, it was done in pure advertising.   A few years back a lot of people didn't even know Apple existed, or there were alternatives to a PC.   Most people that use a Mac could care less if you use a PC.  The elists on both sides make all that crap up.

3)  Macs are not over priced.  You need to research your facts.  Compare spec to spec, feature to feature, and overall cost of ownership to overall cost of ownership of both platforms.   Mac Mini, iMac, Mac Pro and Macbook and Macbook Pro are all marketed for a certain user type.  Mac mini is for the user that needs a small micro form factor computer.  Try building a machine as powerful and as small and quiet as a Mac mini.  iMac is an all-in-one and comparing it to all other all-in-ones it is easily the best.  Mac Pro, well it runs dual xeons, good luck building/finding a dual xeon machine cheaper.  Their laptops are the best that I have ever owned.  While this is my opinion I have owned, and repaired/supported every major brand of laptop in existence.

4)  it is not MAC, it is Mac, which is short for Macintosh.  MAC is an acronym that means something entirely else

5)  It all comes down to personal preference in the end.


On a side, technical note, OS X uses BSD under the hood, which is far superior to Windows old and busted monolithic kernel and OS design.  Which is why Windows has so many security flaws and instabilities in it.


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## lucasbytegenius

dave1701 said:


> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883113142
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824116455
> 
> $795 for upgradablity, and a bigger HDD, and overclocking
> 
> 
> 
> or this
> http://www.amazon.com/Apple-iMac-MC508LL-21-5-Inch-Desktop/dp/B002QQ8IO6
> 
> $1100 with no upgradeablity and an annoying operating system.
> 
> Rant continued, Another thing I dislike about apple is their "artsy" operating system.  I want to get things done, not marvel at the astetics of the operating system.  The buttons for example, insted of being smart like windows, the OS has a red, a yellow and a green button for minimizing, maximize, and exiting.  Those who have never used a computer before can at least predict what the windows buttons mean.  Why on earth have just colors like that, that represents the whole OS.  Less getting things done and more enjoying the pretty colors.



Ever used a Mac? Dude when you hover over the buttons there are symbols that appear. Mac OS X rocks, much easier and straightforward than Windows. Faster too.



Rocko said:


> Mac OS is much more intuitive to the human psyche than windows is. Don't get me wrong, I do not swing towards Apple by any means, but imho,  their OS is not a negative by far.


Exactly.



fastdude said:


> Plus, OS X is cheaper than Windows
> 
> OK, that's an extreme example but you get the point I'm trying to make


Of course, you've got to take in mind that it only legally works on a Mac, and that since the developers work with the hardware devs, they can produce a much better OS for the hardware instead of creating one for everything. They once did make Mac OS for PCs as well, but thanks to piracy Apple almost went bankrupt in the 90s.



Mattu said:


> Imo, Macs nowadays are just overpriced PC, like already stated, since they switched to Intel processors. Back in the day though, when they were still Power PC based, they were worth buying since a G4/G5 would blow the top off a Pentium 4 at the same speed. Much like today a i7 3GHz will blow a Pentium 4 3GHz out of the water.


I wished they had continued to use the PowerPC architecture, but for some reason Motorola couldn't keep up with the quota. I think Apple did use IBM hardware once, but I'm not sure.


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## Quiltface

> 2) The stigma of owning a Mac makes you elite is something the PC side just really makes up. Apple realized a long time ago for them to be successful does not mean that Microsoft or anyone else has to fail. Apple has concentrated on their product and while, their ads Mac Vs PC make fun of the cliches of computing, it was done in pure advertising. A few years back a lot of people didn't even know Apple existed, or there were alternatives to a PC. Most people that use a Mac could care less if you use a PC. The elists on both sides make all that crap up.



I never said it was something apple did or it was all mac users... just something i noticed.  So maybe it is the "Mac elites" that I am talking about.  Like I said it is a computer and that is all it is at the end of the day... not a lifestyle... not a community... it doesn't describe yourself... it is there to get work done and to entertain you.  The Mac vs PC war will be over right after peace breaks out in the middle east unfortunately lol.

And you post in these threads because you have to... deep down you know you have to.  I almost didn't too.


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## tech savvy

dave1701 said:


> What's so great about Ipods?  You can get a MP3 player that is just as good for half their prices.  Is wasting money on overpriced electronics cool?



why you hating so much??the ipod touch is the shit, and the only reason it cost so much is because theres not nothing out there like it to compete against it.the other reason why apple cost so much is because they take pride in there work and have superb components.


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## tlarkin

Quiltface said:


> I never said it was something apple did or it was all mac users... just something i noticed.  So maybe it is the "Mac elites" that I am talking about.  Like I said it is a computer and that is all it is at the end of the day... not a lifestyle... not a community... it doesn't describe yourself... it is there to get work done and to entertain you.  The Mac vs PC war will be over right after peace breaks out in the middle east unfortunately lol.
> 
> And you post in these threads because you have to... deep down you know you have to.  I almost didn't too.



Well this is where you and I disagree.  MUG, Mac User Groups, LUG - Linux User Groups, video game clans, hard core gaming, MMOs, Open Source software developers, etc all make up communities of computer users.

It is also a life style for some people.  Go into a hardcore gaming forum and say you are a Mac user and you will get taunted by Internet tough guys left and right.  Go into a Mac forum and some people will say, Ewwww, you use a PC?

I think if as a person you honestly feel better about yourself because you are a Mac or PC you should probably pull your head out of your ass, but that crap doesn't bother me.  Most gamers don't know all that much about computers beyond hardware so that is the standard they set on how a computer works, should run, etc.  They almost always never factor in total cost of ownership.  They just go by hardware specs. Most Mac users know their Macs simply work, and they are more geared towards software.  They don't care about a 15 FPS boost on their video play back, they want to know what software can do what for them.

When you get down to it, from a hardware/software perspective the Mac is very attractive on paper versus every other computer out there.  However, there are some deal breakers for some people and they could be software/hardware/OS/whatever related.

I like OS X tons and tons more than Windows because of self contained apps, Unix configuration files, no bloat, no registry, and it follows the standard POSIX Unix kernel>shell design, which is superior in many ways.  A major way it is for security.

However, at the end of the day none of that matters if your prefer one over the other that is going to be the reason you use a Mac or a PC.


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## Quiltface

What i dont like about most new MP3 players... ipod, zune, archos...doesnt matter...not apple bashing here... is they dont have buttons!  the only thing i use my mp3 player for is when im working out or running or something... i like to stick my hand in my pocket and skip without having to look at it... i dont want a touchscreen for my mp3 player... call me old fashioned.


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## tlarkin

Mattu said:


> Imo, Macs nowadays are just overpriced PC, like already stated, since they switched to Intel processors. Back in the day though, when they were still Power PC based, they were worth buying since a G4/G5 would blow the top off a Pentium 4 at the same speed. Much like today a i7 3GHz will blow a Pentium 4 3GHz out of the water.



You realize that x86 architecture has blown PPC architecture out of the water in pure performance right?  PPC has a market, and that is for embedded and closed systems.  Networking hardware, gaming consoles, etc, use PPC based architecture and it works great.

Apple made a wise decision on the Intel switch in my opinion.


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## tlarkin

Quiltface said:


> What i dont like about most new MP3 players... ipod, zune, archos...doesnt matter...not apple bashing here... is they dont have buttons!  the only thing i use my mp3 player for is when im working out or running or something... i like to stick my hand in my pocket and skip without having to look at it... i dont want a touchscreen for my mp3 player... call me old fashioned.



double tap the home button and controls will appear, if you have a set of ear buds with the mic control in them you can tap that to skip songs.  Volume buttons are on the sides.


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## Quiltface

tlarkin said:


> Well this is where you and I disagree.  MUG, Mac User Groups, LUG - Linux User Groups, video game clans, hard core gaming, MMOs, Open Source software developers, etc all make up communities of computer users.
> 
> It is also a life style for some people.  Go into a hardcore gaming forum and say you are a Mac user and you will get taunted by Internet tough guys left and right.  Go into a Mac forum and some people will say, Ewwww, you use a PC?



I will agree to disagree with you.

I can understand gaming groups and developers as part of their "life style" but I guess i can never define myself as a windows user  or a linux user...or mac if i used them or a member of the win/mac/linux community.  I think the OS is important dont get me wrong but i dont use my computer to play with the os.  If you are a gamer that is one thing that is your hobby... same with developers hobby as well or possibly your money maker... beyond that it's just silly.

Stand by your choice of computing equipment but don't let it go past that.  I guess if I had to pick an Os that is my os it would have to be windows... more so the server os.  I think the servers are capable of so much despite their outrageous pricetag.  The extent of my linux server experience has been nothing but niche things like monitoring like mrtg and ntop... IDS/IPS(snort) and firewalls...  I have yet to work for a company that uses the mac servers, Im not even sure what they are used for exactly, do you or anyone have examples of the mac servers.. i know you use them tlarkin.


----------



## Quiltface

tlarkin said:


> double tap the home button and controls will appear, if you have a set of ear buds with the mic control in them you can tap that to skip songs.  Volume buttons are on the sides.



i cant feel it though... i like to stick my hand in my pocket (this sounds bad already) and just push a button, i dont want to look at it... and no mic ear buds.  dont get me started on ear buds  lol   Just personal preference really... i just hope my mp3 player never breaks if they get rid of actual buttons on mp3 players  which they probably will.


----------



## dave1701

Apple seems to be a sort hippie of computer companies.  Seems like apple-heads complain all the time when ever they  use a PC too.  "my mac can't get viruses"  "I don't know why anyone buy's PCs"

Example of "Apple-ism"

In my high school, we had PCs, good dell core 2's.  Most of the district had PCs.  However for some reason, the alternative high school had Macs.  They got those Macs because there is a stigma surrounding Macs that make some users feel aloof.  But, this was on the taxpayer's dime.  The worst part was, they were less reliable than the PCs.  Their wireless was having problems, and nobody knew how to use Macs anyway.  

I don't care if people buy them for themselfs, they can do whatever they want, but a taxpayer funded school is using Macs is rediculous.  I'm sure they discount them some, but that's a rediculous waste of money for a school.


----------



## tlarkin

Quiltface said:


> ... Im not even sure what they are used for exactly, do you or anyone have examples of the mac servers.. i know you use them tlarkin.



Just hosting OS X services, AFP, SMB, NFS, Netboot, Apache, MySQL, Software update, Open Directory, etc.   Home folder and network share hosting.   Basically the same thing a Windows server does. iCal server, iTunesU, XGRID, Wikis, blogs, and everything else the mac can plug into.

You can use them with AD Windows servers too and you can host Mac home folders on SMB shares.

Though Apple just discontinued their server line, so no idea what they are going to do next.  I suspect they open it up for virtualization and third party to run native.


----------



## Ethan3.14159

dave1701 said:


> Apple seems to be a sort hippie of computer companies.  Seems like apple-heads complain all the time when ever they  use a PC too.  "my mac can't get viruses"  "I don't know why anyone buy's PCs"
> 
> Example of "Apple-ism"
> 
> In my high school, we had PCs, good dell core 2's.  Most of the district had PCs.  However for some reason, the alternative high school had Macs.  They got those Macs because there is a stigma surrounding Macs that make some users feel aloof.  But, this was on the taxpayer's dime.  The worst part was, they were less reliable than the PCs.  Their wireless was having problems, and nobody knew how to use Macs anyway.
> 
> I don't care if people buy them for themselfs, they can do whatever they want, but a taxpayer funded school is using Macs is rediculous.  I'm sure they discount them some, but that's a rediculous waste of money for a school.


Probably because Apple computers have a lower cost of ownership. It makes more sense to keep the same Mac for 7 years rather than replace outdated Dell's every 3 years. Also, they are easier to use, which is good for students who aren't good with computers. Also, a sleek all-in-one reduces clutter in computer labs. And Apple gives huge discounts to schools who buy in bulk. Not to mention the security advantages, and the vastly superior customer support. 

However, since "teh specz r bad for gamez, and i can't buildz it myself" people dismiss them as rubbish.



tlarkin said:


> Though Apple just discontinued their server line, so no idea what they are going to do next.  I suspect they open it up for virtualization and third party to run native.


They discontinued Xserve, but they quietly introduced Mac Pro Servers.


----------



## tlarkin

Quiltface said:


> i cant feel it though... i like to stick my hand in my pocket (this sounds bad already) and just push a button, i dont want to look at it... and no mic ear buds.  dont get me started on ear buds  lol   Just personal preference really... i just hope my mp3 player never breaks if they get rid of actual buttons on mp3 players  which they probably will.



Well if it is just for working out why not get a shuffle?  cheaper, you can sync it all the time with random music from playlists and it has buttons.  I mean an iPod touch for working out is a bit excessive don't you think?  Unless you are using apps to keep track exercises, calories burnt, work out regiments, miles jogged, etc.

My friend's fiancé has the iPod shuffle and the add on that plugs into her Nike shoes that keeps track of everything she does and then it interfaces with apps on her iPhone and Mac.  She runs a lot and just ran a marathon though, so for her it was perfect.



> Apple seems to be a sort hippie of computer companies. Seems like apple-heads complain all the time when ever they use a PC too. "my mac can't get viruses" "I don't know why anyone buy's PCs"
> 
> Example of "Apple-ism"
> 
> In my high school, we had PCs, good dell core 2's. Most of the district had PCs. However for some reason, the alternative high school had Macs. They got those Macs because there is a stigma surrounding Macs that make some users feel aloof. But, this was on the taxpayer's dime. The worst part was, they were less reliable than the PCs. Their wireless was having problems, and nobody knew how to use Macs anyway.
> 
> I don't care if people buy them for themselfs, they can do whatever they want, but a taxpayer funded school is using Macs is rediculous. I'm sure they discount them some, but that's a rediculous waste of money for a school.



Dells are horrid machine, re-branded cheap lowest bid hardware.   You never know what you are really getting with a Dell which is why they are so cheap.  Their support is outsource, good luck talking to Joey from Indiana but he has a very thick Southern Asian accent.

Again, you aren't seeing overall cost of ownership.



> They discontinued Xserve, but they quietly introduced Mac Pro Servers.



Not a server really.  No rack mount case, no redundant power supplies, not really comparable if you ask me.  Also no lights out management.


----------



## Quiltface

tlarkin said:


> Just hosting OS X services, AFP, SMB, NFS, Netboot, Apache, MySQL, Software update, Open Directory, etc.   Home folder and network share hosting.   Basically the same thing a Windows server does. iCal server, iTunesU, XGRID, Wikis, blogs, and everything else the mac can plug into.
> 
> You can use them with AD Windows servers too and you can host Mac home folders on SMB shares.
> 
> Though Apple just discontinued their server line, so no idea what they are going to do next.  I suspect they open it up for virtualization and third party to run native.



I actually did some quick reading after I posted that, and found that apple was a considerable contender for a SMB granted you had mac's but not necessary, but was a toss up between the 2 platforms. but Windows server owns the larger business and enterprises. that was probably a gimmie.  Most notably the directory services in windows is much more robust and replication across many domain controllers is more efficient as the apple server uses the old WinNT theory of a PDC and BDC's.  But Apple apparently has a much easier file and print sharing feature.  Do you know if it has a shadow copy "like" feature?



> Well if it is just for working out why not get a shuffle?


I still want a screen...i still dont like itunes and i want more than 2GB of space which seems to be all that the shuffle has.



> Dells are horrid machine


We agree on something!


----------



## Dystopia

tech savvy said:


> why you hating so much??the ipod touch is the shit, and the only reason it cost so much is because theres not nothing out there like it to compete against it.the other reason why apple cost so much is because they take pride in there work and have superb components.



I prefer the Zune. I like that it is smaller, though the app store sucks. However since I don't use the app store, it's no biggie.

@Quitltface: I agree, it is kind of a pain switching songs with a touch screen, when the player is in your pocket.

@Dave, regarding stupid post complaining about the buttons on Mac's: Most first time computer users aren't using a Mac, they are using PCs.


----------



## TrainTrackHack

> They once did make Mac OS for PCs as well, but thanks to piracy Apple almost went bankrupt in the 90s.


No, that's not why they almost went bankrupt.

ON TOPIC, HOWEVER, I'm not too fond of macs. THIS IS JUST ME, HOWEVER, AND MY REASONS MAY NOT APPLY TO EVERYONE. I just see no use for a mac - there's always going to be some silly programs that I absolutely need Windows for, and I'm not going to spend extra $100+ on a piece of software for a machine that already costs a lot. I like tinkering around with the computers - I like building my own. And Mac OS isn't a big plus for me, I'm not saying it's bad but my experience with it on our school computers wasn't particularly great (I'm not blaming it on the OS itself, there had got to be something wrong with the way they were set up, but I didn't see how it is that great).

The total ownership cost is one thing that doesn't really apply to me either. I used a '99 P3 machine with 256MB RAM that cost me $200 for three years (05-08) as my primary machine, spent absolutely no money on upgrading it (not that there were many upgrade options anyway). Said computer currently has Arch installed on it and is still in good use (not usually by me, though). That, of course, is a cherry picked example of how little you (well, I) can make due with. Point being that I don't need to go on an upgrading spree every few years just because I have PC and still be a-ok with what I have.


----------



## dave1701

Yea, I have old PCs that have been used to hell and back and are still chuggin' along.  Dells are dependable, I don't know what your talking about.


----------



## lucasbytegenius

hackapelite said:


> No, that's not why they almost went bankrupt.



It's partly why. What is ironic is that they actually got M$ to invest in them.


----------



## just a noob

Mac sucks. Windows sucks. Linux sucks. All other operating systems suck.


----------



## lucasbytegenius

Agreed


----------



## ROFLcopter

Ethan3.14159 said:


> Probably because Apple computers have a lower cost of ownership. It makes more sense to keep the same Mac for 7 years rather than replace outdated Dell's every 3 years. Also, they are easier to use, which is good for students who aren't good with computers. Also, a sleek all-in-one reduces clutter in computer labs. And Apple gives huge discounts to schools who buy in bulk. Not to mention the security advantages, and the vastly superior customer support.
> 
> However, since "teh specz r bad for gamez, and i can't buildz it myself" people dismiss them as rubbish.
> 
> 
> They discontinued Xserve, but they quietly introduced Mac Pro Servers.





Ethan3.14159 said:


> *Probably because Apple computers have a lower cost of ownership*. It makes more sense to keep the same Mac for 7 years rather than replace outdated Dell's every 3 years. Also, they are easier to use, which is good for students who aren't good with computers. Also, a sleek all-in-one reduces clutter in computer labs. And Apple gives huge discounts to schools who buy in bulk. *Not to mention the security advantages, and the vastly superior customer support. *



This entire thread deserves to be put in the fail thread if possible. 

Mac's have pros and cons
Pc's have pros and cons

Dell/HP/Compaq etc are garbage and should not be included in this debate.

Above text that is bolded is from a Mac fanboy trying to troll, but I will feed him anyway.

A computer regardless of make will lose money. Total cost of ownership is nothing but bs. A poorly maintained PC/Mac won't last long compared too a well maintained PC/Mac that will last 10 years(Sounds a lot like cars).

Security is moot as with the above it depends on the user. When I first built the rig in my sig I didn't even think about putting AV for a good month and a half. Funny as how I didn't getting malicious software. Simply being smart about how you use the internet is the best defence against someone trying to mess up your computer.

Nuff said
*Stands back and watches both sides fling glittery poo at each other*


----------



## Quiltface

Who wants to start a PC-DOS vs MS-DOS debate?   jk


----------



## dave1701

just a noob said:


> Mac sucks. Windows sucks. Linux sucks. All other operating systems suck.



I'll agree to that and end any bitterness surounding the subject.  


However, I CANNOT agree to this



> Dell/HP/Compaq etc are garbage and should not be included in this debate.


----------



## Droogie

WOW i can build a pc on newegg for cheaper than a mac.. mac's must be overpriced! also they are just bad because.. .they're really bad and not as cool as my PC that i built all by myself!

this thread sucks btw


----------



## speedyink

Both Macs and PCs are good, and have their strengths.  Neither are perfect, neither never crash, and neither are immune to faulty hardware.

I will say this..Apple is the master of upselling.  Not from an advertising or sales associate point of view (though it does play an important role), but more on a product selection point of view.  Apple strategically only has a select few models, and all with a lot of high quality components and features..including the ones most people don't need.  If you don't give the user a choice to have an option, they have to buy it all.  Since a lot of people prefer macs thats a lot of people being sold crap they don't need(yay for recessions, lol).  That is why I will never buy a mac new.


----------



## Quiltface

I like palm os


----------



## awildgoose

Ethan3.14159 said:


> However, since "teh specz r bad for gamez, and i can't buildz it myself" people dismiss them as rubbish.



This is pretty much the basis of almost all hate against Macs (well in my opinion). Mostly because the debates we know are from this forum and this forum (again in my opinion) is made up from game playing people, well I think the majority is at least. People who use computers to play games want to have super sweet graphics and latest and greatest and be able to upgrade and tinker the computer themselves and since a Mac (the Mac Pro I think is the one most people refer to) really doesn't do that then they think it sucks.

There are more things out there than just games people! From what I know of macs is they come pre-installed with some pretty cool software, like some good movie/sound editing and all that? Not sure but sounds right. Then there are a lot of people who would rather buy a mac with that installed rather than buy a PC (or build) and then pay again for software.



just a noob said:


> Mac sucks. Windows sucks. Linux sucks. All other operating systems suck.



I'm pretty sure computers suck in general.

EDIT: Oh and to the overprice thing, have you heard of something called a profit?
And to elitist comments, just deal with it. Many people on here deal with elitists all the time(hehe they'll understand), so I prescribe 1 case of harden up to anyone being elitists about Apple/mac.


----------



## Ethan3.14159

ROFLcopter said:


> This entire thread deserves to be put in the fail thread if possible.
> 
> Mac's have pros and cons
> Pc's have pros and cons
> 
> Dell/HP/Compaq etc are garbage and should not be included in this debate.
> 
> Above text that is bolded is from a Mac fanboy trying to troll, but I will feed him anyway.
> 
> A computer regardless of make will lose money. Total cost of ownership is nothing but bs. A poorly maintained PC/Mac won't last long compared too a well maintained PC/Mac that will last 10 years(Sounds a lot like cars).
> 
> Security is moot as with the above it depends on the user. When I first built the rig in my sig I didn't even think about putting AV for a good month and a half. Funny as how I didn't getting malicious software. Simply being smart about how you use the internet is the best defence against someone trying to mess up your computer.
> 
> Nuff said
> *Stands back and watches both sides fling glittery poo at each other*


Ah yes, I'm a true Apple fanboy. With my Windows computer and my HTC Desire running Android...  I must be an Apple fanboy because I have a Macbook Pro and an Apple avatar. Wow. Grow up, pillock.

The 2 things you highlighted from me are true. Look at the resale value of a 3 year old Mac vs a 3 year old PC. You can easily make back 2/3 of the original price with a Mac. You could never ever do that with a PC. Also, look at any customer satisfaction survey posted online and you will see Apple far above every other major PC manufacturer.


----------



## Quiltface

i thought macs were supposed to have nice graphics cards?  idk

macs were and probably still industry leaders for graphic design and video editing software... back before they put intel processors that was their main target it seemed.  everyone that i knew that had one was either a professional graphic designer or a professional video editor.

macs didnt seem to become the "internet box" of choice until intel came into the picture.


----------



## Twist86

dave1701 said:


> However, I CANNOT agree to this



Why not? Its truth...I mean have you ever really inspected those pre-built garbage machines? The fact they don't die within 6 months always amazes me. I mean some of them run a i7 system with a 350w PSU and everyone is shocked when the sucker blows.




Quiltface said:


> i thought macs were supposed to have nice graphics cards?  idk



Nah they are behind us on graphics since games don't perform AS well yet on Macs. Plus you pay twice the price   However Mac has a spark of hope as players like eVGA are making upgrades for the Mac now. Slowly the Mac is gaining ground...I however wont buy a Mac till I can build my system off newegg and use any parts I want at the same price as a PC.


----------



## Quiltface

hp isnt too bad... their support is horrid though... lenovo isnt too bad either.


----------



## TrainTrackHack

> Grow up, pillock.


Every time I use that word, people ask me what it means... this one time I got asked if it's a jewish word :/


----------



## FATALiiTYz

dave1701 said:


> Yea, I have old PCs that have been used to hell and back and are still chuggin' along.  Dells are dependable, I don't know what your talking about.



Dells are NOT dependable, I can tell you that. Neither are Acer, HP Compaq and most other pre-built desktops.


----------



## Quiltface

Acer is the worst.


----------



## tlarkin

Quiltface said:


> I actually did some quick reading after I posted that, and found that apple was a considerable contender for a SMB granted you had mac's but not necessary, but was a toss up between the 2 platforms. but Windows server owns the larger business and enterprises. that was probably a gimmie.  Most notably the directory services in windows is much more robust and replication across many domain controllers is more efficient as the apple server uses the old WinNT theory of a PDC and BDC's.  But Apple apparently has a much easier file and print sharing feature.  Do you know if it has a shadow copy "like" feature?



Microsoft's server side technology is definitely pretty robust for sure.  However, OD can replicate just like AD can.  I can also set group policy via managed client and I can code it in Unix or use property lists, which is actually far more robust.  Microsoft is learning that they need to up the ante when it comes to command line binaries, so they whipped up the power shell recently.

OS X Server does lack heavily in print management, but most other things like email, calendars, directory services, file replication, and so forth I would say it is on par for features.  However, Apple has only had their server OS out there for less than a decade.  MS has had some years on them.



> i thought macs were supposed to have nice graphics cards? idk
> 
> macs were and probably still industry leaders for graphic design and video editing software... back before they put intel processors that was their main target it seemed. everyone that i knew that had one was either a professional graphic designer or a professional video editor.
> 
> macs didnt seem to become the "internet box" of choice until intel came into the picture.



They use high end screens and to be honest, video gaming cards don't really boost performance for anything but video games.  It won't boost performance in video editing, audio editing, graphic design, and so forth.   Even CUDA technology from Adobe is pretty much a joke.



> This is pretty much the basis of almost all hate against Macs (well in my opinion). Mostly because the debates we know are from this forum and this forum (again in my opinion) is made up from game playing people, well I think the majority is at least. People who use computers to play games want to have super sweet graphics and latest and greatest and be able to upgrade and tinker the computer themselves and since a Mac (the Mac Pro I think is the one most people refer to) really doesn't do that then they think it sucks.



I hate to stereotype gamers all into one lump of people, but a lot of them don't know jack sh** about computers.   I, not too long ago, was on the SCII forums reading up on Protoss strategies and I noticed a computer hardware thread so I figured since my expertise is in computers I'd help since a lot of the hardcore SCII  share their strategies with the casual players like myself.   

This guy was going to buy 12gig of RAM for his rig, and I told him no it is a waste of money, all you need is 4gigs.   Later on I had to explain memory addressing, and that 32bit memory addressing can only access a maximum of 4gigs of RAM, period.  At that point a lot of the gamers stopped arguing but a few hard headed ones kept coming at me.   One was a gamer who was also some sort of 3D designer.  He argued with me that every application is 64bit because he deals with 10+ gig files at work all the time.  I then had to explain to him file size was limitation of the file system not the OS.   

Several gamers called me a noob and an idiot blah blah blah then I actually showed them that Starcraft II is a 32-bit application, as is pretty much every video game you buy off the shelf today, and that having over 4gigs of RAM really doesn't give you any advantage unless you multi-task a ton.

There are so many self proclaimed experts in computing that don't even understand the fundamentals, then they like to create threads about how certain type of computer sucks, certain type of video card sucks, or how you need 8gigs of RAM, etc.   

That is why I need to avoid posting in such threads as my intentions in the beginning are always to help, but in the end it always turns into an argument with people who are ignorant.  Reminds me of an old saying....

"Never argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level, then beat you with experience."


----------



## Intel_man

jeremy_442 said:


> Dells are NOT dependable, I can tell you that. Neither are Acer, HP Compaq and most other pre-built desktops.



The business fleet of Dells and HP are quite nice.


----------



## ScOuT

Ethan3.14159 said:


> It makes more sense to keep the same Mac for 7 years rather than replace outdated Dell's every 3 years.



Wow...I thought a Mac and a PC have very similar hardware. A processor, RAM, HD, ect... 

How exactly does a Apple not outdate and a Dell does?


----------



## tlarkin

ScOuT said:


> Wow...I thought a Mac and a PC have very similar hardware. A processor, RAM, HD, ect...
> 
> How exactly does a Apple not outdate and a Dell does?



Closed system
no bloat
designed from the ground up.


I have a Mac from 2004 at my home, which runs 10.5.8 and is still blazing fast.  Too bad it is PPC so it cannot run 10.6 otherwise it would run it no problem.

When you design every aspect of a computer, you can do things like give it longer replacement cycle life and make it run more efficient.  Snow Leopard actually takes up less memory than Leopard.  They cut out the fat in OS X 10.6.

Microsoft doesn't do that.


----------



## ScOuT

tlarkin said:


> Closed system
> no bloat
> designed from the ground up.
> 
> I have a Mac from 2004 at my home, which runs 10.5.8 and is still blazing fast.  Too bad it is PPC so it cannot run 10.6 otherwise it would run it no problem.
> 
> When you design every aspect of a computer, you can do things like give it longer replacement cycle life and make it run more efficient.  Snow Leopard actually takes up less memory than Leopard.  They cut out the fat in OS X 10.6.
> 
> Microsoft doesn't do that.



The software side does make sense I guess...me and my ignorance was thinking hardware only. Thanks for that tlarkin 

This thread can go on for years of people talking both ways


----------



## StrangleHold

tlarkin said:


> "Never argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level, then beat you with experience."


 
Good one. You must be more patient then I am. I start getting frustrated, go off and scare the hell out of everybody in the room. lol


----------



## Quiltface

ScOuT said:


> This thread can go on for years of people talking both ways



this debate will die when either MS or Apple dies.  then it will be something else...

What i think is funnier than that MS/Apple war  is the linux vs unix war (I actually had someone tell me that linux is for pussies and unix was the way to go, I was like seriously? That doesn't even make sense to call someone that for using a certain OS)... or even better  linux vs linux   ("ubuntu!" "no slackware noob!"  "screw you all red hat baby!")


----------



## tlarkin

ScOuT said:


> The software side does make sense I guess...me and my ignorance was thinking hardware only. Thanks for that tlarkin
> 
> This thread can go on for years of people talking both ways



Yup and since Windows and Linux need to write their code for a wide variety of hardware configurations you get a sort of bloat, though Linux can be stripped down to the bare minimum as well.  Which is why Linux is so genius on some levels.  It is a very modular OS where you can take a kernel and a shell and then start wrapping up and compiling packages to fit your exact needs.  It is very customizable to the point where you can build specific builds of Linux to fit exact needs with nothing else.

However, if you download the latest and greatest all-in-one package of Ubuntu which includes driver bundles, package bundles and so forth you start getting into the realm of bloat you see in OS X and in Windows.  I use that term lightly here because neither really Linux or OS X bloat when compared to Windows.

Then you have Microsoft, which doesn't change their OS design, kernel design, and then decides to support tons and tons of legacy items and code.  Things like virtual XP mode, or XP compatibility mode, support for old legacy device drivers where developers don't update their drivers.  Hell just like at MS Office.  You can go all the way back and save your Word Document as version 1.0 if you want to.  They have to keep that old code in their product because they aren't a modular business model.

The more bloat you create the more hardware it takes to efficiently run it.   Reminds me sort of this Java joke.



> A group of 4 Microsoft .NET programmers and a group of 4 Java programmers are going on a train to an expo. The MS programmers buy a ticket each, and then watch the Java programmers proceed to buy one ticket between them.
> 
> The MS programmers are intrigued and when they get on the train, they watch the Java programmers to see what they do when the guard comes to check the tickets. It turns out that, before the guard comes, they all cram into the toilet. The guard knocks on the door, and asks for the ticket. The guard takes it from under the door, and slides it back.
> 
> The MS programmers are all impressed, so on the way back, they buy only one ticket. Only to watch the Java folks get on the train without buying a ticket at all.
> 
> When they get on the train, the MS people cram into the toilet, as they saw the Java folks on the earlier journey. The Java programmers then knock on the door, and say "Ticket please". The MS programmers slide the ticket under the door, as they saw the Java programmers do earlier.
> 
> "Thank you", they say. "You steal our methods, but you don't understand them."


----------



## Quiltface

> A group of 4 Microsoft .NET programmers and a group of 4 Java programmers are going on a train to an expo. The MS programmers buy a ticket each, and then watch the Java programmers proceed to buy one ticket between them.
> 
> The MS programmers are intrigued and when they get on the train, they watch the Java programmers to see what they do when the guard comes to check the tickets. It turns out that, before the guard comes, they all cram into the toilet. The guard knocks on the door, and asks for the ticket. The guard takes it from under the door, and slides it back.
> 
> The MS programmers are all impressed, so on the way back, they buy only one ticket. Only to watch the Java folks get on the train without buying a ticket at all.
> 
> When they get on the train, the MS people cram into the toilet, as they saw the Java folks on the earlier journey. The Java programmers then knock on the door, and say "Ticket please". The MS programmers slide the ticket under the door, as they saw the Java programmers do earlier.
> 
> "Thank you", they say. "You steal our methods, but you don't understand them."



True story.


----------



## Kitsune

I use Windows 7 and I can fly around like the wind. I jump on a mac and I cant even find a start or menu button it seriously took me like an hour and a half to figure out how to shut the thing off, and right when I found it the battery died x.x


----------



## tlarkin

Kitsune said:


> I use Windows 7 and I can fly around like the wind. I jump on a mac and I cant even find a start or menu button it seriously took me like an hour and a half to figure out how to shut the thing off, and right when I found it the battery died x.x



how is that the OSes fault?  That is your lacking of ability to use the OS.


----------



## Kitsune

tlarkin said:


> how is that the OSes fault? That is your lacking of ability to use the OS.


 

That may be so but couldn't it be more user friendly? I mean a monkey could run Windows. 
I think that is about the only problem I had with it. 
I tried to learn the system but it is like learning another language to me x.x 
My Mother bought me a mac book for christmas 2 years ago now I have no Idea where it went. I felt so bad, for not liking it, I paid her back for it.


----------



## Geoff

Kitsune said:


> That may be so but couldn't it be more user friendly? I mean a monkey could run Windows.
> I think that is about the only problem I had with it.
> I tried to learn the system but it is like learning another language to me x.x
> My Mother bought me a mac book for christmas 2 years ago now I have no Idea where it went. I felt so bad, for not liking it, I paid her back for it.


Want to find and open an application?  Go > Applications

Want to search for a file?  Click on the magnifying glass

Want to check for updates?  Click on the Apple icon > software update

Want to shutdown?  Apple > Shutdown

I don't see how hard that was to figure out.  I learned more on how to use a Mac in an hour then I did using a PC for months.


----------



## tlarkin

Kitsune said:


> That may be so but couldn't it be more user friendly? I mean a monkey could run Windows.
> I think that is about the only problem I had with it.
> I tried to learn the system but it is like learning another language to me x.x
> My Mother bought me a mac book for christmas 2 years ago now I have no Idea where it went. I felt so bad, for not liking it, I paid her back for it.



Your comparison is not really that good.  Most likely you have been using Windows for years and since Windows 7 still has a similar layouts to that of Windows 95, ie a start menu.

If you have never used a Mac ever in your entire life you won't instantly know everything, however you can draw parallels

Software Update = Windows Update
System Preferences = Control Panels
Finder = Explorer

I mean it doesn't take that much to get the basics of it.


----------



## Dystopia

hackapelite said:


> Every time I use that word, people ask me what it means... this one time I got asked if it's a jewish word :/



I just google words I don't know the meaning of 

@whoeversaidaceriscrap:  I like my acer netbook...

@everyonewhoisarguingandeveninsulting: Just give it up, neither side is going to understand why Macs can be better than PCs for some, and worse for others. For example, I am sure that a Mac would work fine for me; I don't game on PCs. But do I need more power than my $300 netbook? Nope. Do I need, or even want a thinner netbook? No, mine is already > 1". Am I worried about security? No. So would me shelling out a bunch of extra cash for a Macbook whatever? Nope.

On the other hand, if I actually DID stuff on my netbook aside from surfing the web and listening to music, I could use a Mac.


----------



## Kitsune

True
The problem is I am an imatient learner with "new" things. Not everything is the same granted. 

Some people learn things at different rates, pick up things quicker, are able to use them more efficiently. I used a mac OS in middle school and it was easier to learn because it was setup like windows. There was an apple button on the task bar that I took to be the "start" menu (I just remembered this BTW) ect. I got the mac for xmas and I felt so over whelmed (SP?) by the new layout that I just couldnt take it. 

But this is a flaming thread After all


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> Snow Leopard actually takes up less memory than Leopard.  They cut out the fat in OS X 10.6.
> 
> Microsoft doesn't do that.



I guess from Vista to 7 doesn't count.  



Quiltface said:


> Acer is the worst.



Old Acer, yes.  New(ish) Acer, you've got some research to do, or maybe you're just plain ignorant.  If this is based on hardware failure, you'd be happy to know that Apples fail just as much or more than some of the competing brands.  I can't find the statistic right now, but Apple wasn't at the top for least hardware failure.


----------



## tlarkin

speedyink said:


> I guess from Vista to 7 doesn't count.
> 
> 
> 
> Old Acer, yes.  New(ish) Acer, you've got some research to do, or maybe you're just plain ignorant.  If this is based on hardware failure, you'd be happy to know that Apples fail just as much or more than some of the competing brands.  I can't find the statistic right now, but Apple wasn't at the top for least hardware failure.



Snow Leopard takes up to 8 less gigs of HD space over Leopard because they dropped out PPC support.  So when you upgrade from 10.5 to 10.6 the OS gives you almost 10 gigs of HD space.


----------



## Quiltface

Depending on how old we are talking my buddy worked at a place that had all acer computers and ended up ordering something around 50-60 motherboards for them because they just kept dying.

And that is great about apple's having hardware failure... i am not even on apple's side of the fence per-say.

If acer has picked their game up in the past few years that is great but I will never buy a fleet of them for a company i work for.

And no I guess I don't spend my time researching if Acer doesn't suck anymore so I guess that is on me.


----------



## tlarkin

> Old Acer, yes. New(ish) Acer, you've got some research to do, or maybe you're just plain ignorant. If this is based on hardware failure, you'd be happy to know that Apples fail just as much or more than some of the competing brands. I can't find the statistic right now, but Apple wasn't at the top for least hardware failure.



I have worked for two school systems.  Each of them has over 10,000 PC devices each, and they were Gateway, Dell, Sony, HP business class, and some local built brands here and there (but those were rare).

Before that even more years ago I worked at a company that did business/retail sales and I worked in the service department as a warranty tech.  I repaired every brand of everything when it came to computers.

Apple computers fail, they sure do just like everything else.  However, I wouldn't say they fail more, and the failures I mostly see in them at my current job is almost always user related.  It was dropped, or the HD failed which they do not make, etc.

I can tell you working with teach company out there Apple has superior customer service.  Dells are trash and HP is trash unless you buy HP business class.  I was actually quite impressed with HP business class machines.  They were built barebones like, weren't bloated in preloaded crappy software, and were decently priced and well built.   

I think I ordered parts on Gateways and Dells on a daily basis, meaning every day one of them failed.  We had thousands of each.


----------



## dave1701

If the cost of ownership is so high, why do so many school/ buisnesses/ libraries use Dells?


----------



## awildgoose

tlarkin said:


> I hate to stereotype gamers all into one lump of people, but a lot of them don't know jack sh** about computers.   I, not too long ago, was on the SCII forums reading up on Protoss strategies and I noticed a computer hardware thread so I figured since my expertise is in computers I'd help since a lot of the hardcore SCII  share their strategies with the casual players like myself.
> 
> This guy was going to buy 12gig of RAM for his rig, and I told him no it is a waste of money, all you need is 4gigs.   Later on I had to explain memory addressing, and that 32bit memory addressing can only access a maximum of 4gigs of RAM, period.  At that point a lot of the gamers stopped arguing but a few hard headed ones kept coming at me.   One was a gamer who was also some sort of 3D designer.  He argued with me that every application is 64bit because he deals with 10+ gig files at work all the time.  I then had to explain to him file size was limitation of the file system not the OS.
> 
> Several gamers called me a noob and an idiot blah blah blah then I actually showed them that Starcraft II is a 32-bit application, as is pretty much every video game you buy off the shelf today, and that having over 4gigs of RAM really doesn't give you any advantage unless you multi-task a ton.
> 
> There are so many self proclaimed experts in computing that don't even understand the fundamentals, then they like to create threads about how certain type of computer sucks, certain type of video card sucks, or how you need 8gigs of RAM, etc.
> 
> That is why I need to avoid posting in such threads as my intentions in the beginning are always to help, but in the end it always turns into an argument with people who are ignorant.  Reminds me of an old saying....
> 
> "Never argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level, then beat you with experience."


This is exactly my point. Majority of people on here are gamers and Macs aren't really gaming machines, so obviously mac = crap.



Kitsune said:


> That may be so but couldn't it be more user friendly? I mean a monkey could run Windows.
> I think that is about the only problem I had with it.
> I tried to learn the system but it is like learning another language to me x.x
> My Mother bought me a mac book for christmas 2 years ago now I have no Idea where it went. I felt so bad, for not liking it, I paid her back for it.


I've used a mac once, at a friends and I got the hang of it pretty much straight away. Although he is one of the mac elitist guys so I have to bring him down a notch sometimes hehehe.


----------



## tlarkin

dave1701 said:


> If the cost of ownership is so high, why do so many school/ buisnesses/ libraries use Dells?



That is not really true anymore.  Apple has over a 25% market share in the USA, but only about 8-9% world wide.  Meaning 1 in 4 computers in the USA is a Mac.

Government is switching to Macs.   NASA switched to using some Macs.  Google is switching to using Macs.

Overall cost of ownership is lower really.  They have a longer life cycle.  Their software licensing is way cheaper.  Ever see what a site license of Windows costs?   They are by design more secure.


----------



## ScOuT

tlarkin said:


> Government is switching to Macs.



No...that will never happen. We use dozens if not hundreds of specialized programs for everything you can think of built just for each certain things. 

The Military and Government has several world wide networks (both secret and non-secret) with millions of computers, servers, battle tracking systems, records keeping and many others. There is hundreds of thousands of Terabytes of stored information. Everything we have ever done with computer systems is stored in files on "Share Drives" 

The entire Government runs off of Windows...everything.


----------



## tlarkin

ScOuT said:


> No...that will never happen. We use dozens if not hundreds of specialized programs for everything you can think of built just for each certain things.
> 
> The Military and Government has several world wide networks (both secret and non-secret) with millions of computers, servers, battle tracking systems, records keeping and many others. There is hundreds of thousands of Terabytes of stored information. Everything we have ever done with computer systems is stored in files on "Share Drives"
> 
> The entire Government runs off of Windows...everything.



Eh you are wrong...

For one the NSA publishes security documents every year on using Macs, which means they use them.  There are so many Apple related IT jobs in DC right now because government is a big client.   A simple google search pulled this up as well

http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/surprise_apple_sells_to_the_federal_government/

Just because the government has tons of branches and uses tons of equipment does not mean they only use one kind.  Plus the pentagon deployed OS X servers years ago to test out their security abilities versus Windows since Windows boxes have the most exploits out there over other machines.

The government also uses a lot of Unix and Linux on the back end.

EDIT-  Oh and the US Army has been using them too
http://www.forbes.com/2007/12/20/apple-army-hackers-tech-security-cx_ag_1221army.html


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> I have worked for two school systems.  Each of them has over 10,000 PC devices each, and they were Gateway, Dell, Sony, HP business class, and some local built brands here and there (but those were rare).
> 
> Before that even more years ago I worked at a company that did business/retail sales and I worked in the service department as a warranty tech.  I repaired every brand of everything when it came to computers.
> 
> Apple computers fail, they sure do just like everything else.  However, I wouldn't say they fail more, and the failures I mostly see in them at my current job is almost always user related.  It was dropped, or the HD failed which they do not make, etc.
> 
> I can tell you working with teach company out there Apple has superior customer service.  Dells are trash and HP is trash unless you buy HP business class.  I was actually quite impressed with HP business class machines.  They were built barebones like, weren't bloated in preloaded crappy software, and were decently priced and well built.
> 
> I think I ordered parts on Gateways and Dells on a daily basis, meaning every day one of them failed.  We had thousands of each.



Well Gateway and Dell definitely don't near the top for least hardware failures.  I was merely stating that Apple wasn't at the top of the list, they were no where near the failures of gateway or dell.  

I myself own a macbook with a failed inverter (or backlight), and I know my friend had to replace the hard drive in his.  Whereas my Acer I only had to replace the keyboard because the previous owner spilled soda on it and managed to knock out a bunch of the keys.  Whoever said Acer's are shit is a tool, they don't just make $399 laptops.


----------



## tlarkin

speedyink said:


> Well Gateway and Dell definitely don't near the top for least hardware failures.  I was merely stating that Apple wasn't at the top of the list, they were no where near the failures of gateway or dell.
> 
> I myself own a macbook with a failed inverter (or backlight), and I know my friend had to replace the hard drive in his.  Whereas my Acer I only had to replace the keyboard because the previous owner spilled soda on it and managed to knock out a bunch of the keys.  Whoever said Acer's are shit is a tool, they don't just make $399 laptops.



Yeah but hard drives are made by hard drive companies, so when they fail would you really consider that the fault of the laptop manufacturer?   If Apple, or anyone else buys a bad batch of hard drives, that isn't necessarily Apple's fault.

However, apple will extend the warranty on known failed parts, most companies DO NOT do that.

http://www.apple.com/support/macbook/hd/repairextension/

That just expired in August but was a 2 year extension on laptops that were three years old.  So, hate all you want, or point out the hardware failures as you do, but take into account Apple was replacing hard drives on 3 year old laptops on a warranty extension.  At zero cost to the the user, besides down time of course.


----------



## brian

tlarkin said:


> Yeah but hard drives are made by hard drive companies, so when they fail would you really consider that the fault of the laptop manufacturer?   If Apple, or anyone else buys a bad batch of hard drives, that isn't necessarily Apple's fault.
> 
> However, apple will extend the warranty on known failed parts, most companies DO NOT do that.
> 
> http://www.apple.com/support/macbook/hd/repairextension/
> 
> That just expired in August but was a 2 year extension on laptops that were three years old.  So, hate all you want, or point out the hardware failures as you do, but take into account Apple was replacing hard drives on 3 year old laptops on a warranty extension.  At zero cost to the the user, besides down time of course.



Yeah a good example of that is the crackbooks. Apple now will replace the white exterior of old macbooks showing signs of cracks.

However they also have somewhat of an attitude. Look at the whole iphone 4, Steve said that its not the phones fault (which it is, a bad design) but that its the users fault for holding it wrong. They did eventually correct this with the bumper but still.. 

I must say tho, that I was a mac hater at one point, I thought it was too simplistic and you could not do much. However since I got my macbook pro, I have found that I enjoy it more then my fujitsu. The start up time is 1/2 that of windows easily, the battery lasts around 7 hours on a charge, the speakers are really good, and the display is very bright. Lastly, its 1/2 the size of my other laptop, and the aluminum case is a great plus.

The one thing apple makes that I do not like is the iphone, I don't agree on how they deliver applications to the users and I hate how locked down the normal os is. 

Plus, (I havnt checked so im going to be proven wrong here but here it goes..) can anyone find a pc as powerful and as small as a mac mini?


----------



## fastdude

brian said:


> Plus, (I havnt checked so im going to be proven wrong here but here it goes..) can anyone find a pc as powerful and as small as a mac mini?



Obviously this is like comparing apples to oranges, but the Cyberpower Infinity Game Cube.

Actually, the Mac Mini is smaller. But the game cube is more powerful, and it's mini-itx.


----------



## Ethan3.14159

fastdude said:


> Obviously this is like comparing apples to oranges, but the Cyberpower Infinity Game Cube.
> 
> Actually, the Mac Mini is smaller. But the game cube is more powerful, and it's mini-itx.


That is massive. Probably 3x the size of the Mac Mini. You're right, though. Apples and oranges.


----------



## tlarkin

fastdude said:


> Obviously this is like comparing apples to oranges, but the Cyberpower Infinity Game Cube.
> 
> Actually, the Mac Mini is smaller. But the game cube is more powerful, and it's mini-itx.



what does that thing cost?


----------



## brian

fastdude said:


> Obviously this is like comparing apples to oranges, but the Cyberpower Infinity Game Cube.
> 
> Actually, the Mac Mini is smaller. But the game cube is more powerful, and it's mini-itx.



Yeah I did know those sizes existed but nothing the size of the mini. I mean yeah it is more powerful but for the size of a mini, it makes a great server that can just be moved around easily and takes up so little space. 

But if i wanted something powerful, yes i would go to that size..

Just saying that for the size its a good box.


----------



## tlarkin

Shuttle PC is I suppose a some-what comparable PC to the Mac Mini

http://us.shuttle.com/


----------



## diduknowthat

The closest to mac mini sized PCs are the bareboned booksize ones you buy off of newegg. Zotac makes a few that runs low powered processors and such. The specifications don't even come close.


----------



## Twist86

Quiltface said:


> Acer is the worst.



I dunno I love their monitors. I bought some 22'' refurbs for $120 a year or so ago and its been fantastic for the price.


----------



## fastdude

diduknowthat said:


> The closest to mac mini sized PCs are the bareboned booksize ones you buy off of newegg. Zotac makes a few that runs low powered processors and such. The specifications don't even come close.



Yeah. Also maybe some nettops have similar dimensions. But, as you said, less power


----------



## Quiltface

Twist86 said:


> I dunno I love their monitors. I bought some 22'' refurbs for $120 a year or so ago and its been fantastic for the price.



Well I can't comment on their monitors... im sure they are fine.


----------



## Method9

I sold my old PPC iMac G4 last year after owning it for about 7. It was great for what I needed--something for her. She is highly computer illiterate and needed something maintenance free to surf the Internet, use iTunes, and watch Youtube. Right about when she started getting messages that flash support was to be dropped for that OS I decided to sell it while I could still get something for it. 7 years is a pretty good run but I did not replace it with another Mac. She's pretty happy on an Acer Netbook w/Windows 7 now. And then there's the $180 versus I think $1300 I paid for it in 2004.


----------



## awildgoose

ScOuT said:


> No...that will never happen. We use dozens if not hundreds of specialized programs for everything you can think of built just for each certain things.
> 
> The Military and Government has several world wide networks (both secret and non-secret) with millions of computers, servers, battle tracking systems, records keeping and many others. There is hundreds of thousands of Terabytes of stored information. Everything we have ever done with computer systems is stored in files on "Share Drives"
> 
> The entire Government runs off of Windows...everything.



That's true. As in I know the Aussie government uses windows for everything.
You know the UAV predators and stuff you see in movies and games?
Windows. No internet source, just a buddy in the RAAF told me.

Also, the family business do computers for mostly medical centers, almost all of Mid to south QLD (state I live in) and North NSW (State below us) and none of the software can run on a mac.
Not sure if this is on topic or not, but just saying macs can't do everything.
Although I am sure there are special stuff windows can't do.


----------



## lhuser

It's that expensive because it's stainless steel...oooh! Seriously, I admit they got good technologies, like the Mac mini...but they ruin it by not being able to open it to upgrade.

Macbook Pros have that auto backlight feature...that I believe a few laptops do have.

Imacs are all in one powerful machines...who's specs are way below these Gateway all-in-one PCs...and Gateway has touchscreen.

They say it's faster...well, it is, because they build their software around their specific hardware they used, unlike Windows, that has to support all kinds of things all over the planet. Windows can be more complicated, but oh boy can it do a lot.


----------



## tlarkin

lhuser said:


> It's that expensive because it's stainless steel...oooh! Seriously, I admit they got good technologies, like the Mac mini...but they ruin it by not being able to open it to upgrade.
> 
> Macbook Pros have that auto backlight feature...that I believe a few laptops do have.
> 
> Imacs are all in one powerful machines...who's specs are way below these Gateway all-in-one PCs...and Gateway has touchscreen.
> 
> They say it's faster...well, it is, because they build their software around their specific hardware they used, unlike Windows, that has to support all kinds of things all over the planet. Windows can be more complicated, but oh boy can it do a lot.



A Mac is a tool, and a PC is also a tool, and both of them can pretty much do the exact same thing.  Really on a basic level it comes down to preference.  On a technical level most people don't know the differences, even computer hobbyist on both sides of the elitist spectrum.

There is nothing a PC can do that a Mac can't and vice versa.  Even gaming is becoming a smaller and smaller gap with steam releasing a Mac versions and developers porting games.

The only time it matters is when you get application specific.  Want to run Adobe, it runs on both.  Video Toaster is Windows only, and Final Cut is Mac only.  Even Auto CAD can now be ran on a Mac.

In a few more years there may be no more software differences at all, since tons of developers are now making software for the Mac.  Remember, one doesn't have to fail for the other to succeed.  Also, with them gaining market share maybe it will force MS to write a decent OS for once.


----------



## phyz

tlarkin said:


> maybe it will force MS to write a decent OS for once.


I wish..


----------



## lhuser

Well, Microsoft actually is trying to have a PC turn on and Windows would come on instantly (About Windows "8").

However, I need more coffee, because Macs and multimedia, video and audio editing, it's their department.

But you've said it...a Mac is a tool, and a PC is a tool. In the overall, it really does depend to the consumer's end. Does he/she prefer using a Mac, or a PC with Windows or a PC with Linux?

Yes, Steam actually came on Mac, but not all games are ported as of yet, and a lot of games still got with DirectX. PCs are also unique to their look, and I don't really like Stainless steel...but that's my own opinions.

I don't like Apple's products, but I do lift my hat to them for these crazy technologies and battery efficient devices.


@Phyz: No OS is perfect, remember that. One thing MS should learn is that rushing an operating system is not a good idea...proved by Windows Vista. Windows ME was a totally different situation I believe.


----------



## speedyink

lhuser said:


> @Phyz: No OS is perfect, remember that.



I strongly agree.


----------



## tlarkin

Of course no OS is perfect.  Nothing with technology will ever be perfect because if it reaches that level, then we can stop building everything at once.  That is why new software and hardware come out, because they improve over time.

However, by design Windows, on paper is the worst OS coded that is out this day.  The whole Internet runs off of Unix based servers, as well as all the servers that run DNS world wide.  There are zero viruses for any and all Unix based OSes in the wild (this includes Linux and OS X), that is because by design Unix is a far superior OS when it comes to security.  It is also superior when it comes to design.

You don't have the "bloat," with Unix based OSes like you do Windows.  This is because you can compile an OS from the kernel up to build what you want it to do.  It is very modular.  Where as Microsoft Windows has very all or nothing monolithic approach.   You get all of it, including all the legacy code, the bloated registry, and the OS itself allows kernel hooks so APIs and things like drivers can get direct access to a kernel with out authentication, which is a huge security risk.

I could go on and on how Unix (and all Unix based OSes) allow for developers to use sockets for multiple processes a certain application may need to run, and set one to run as root so the developer can control what escalated access goes where, unlike Windows.   Most people don't care about these differences and they will always come back to say things like I can run my DX 11 video card in Windows.  So, that is why I won't delve into this too much.

Sadly also, Open GL is far more powerful and robust than Direct X, but developers use DX because it is easier.  If all games were just coded in Open GL to begin with you could easily port them to any OS you wanted to.


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> Of course no OS is perfect.  Nothing with technology will ever be perfect because if it reaches that level, then we can stop building everything at once.  That is why new software and hardware come out, because they improve over time.
> 
> However, by design Windows, on paper is the worst OS coded that is out this day.  The whole Internet runs off of Unix based servers, as well as all the servers that run DNS world wide.  There are zero viruses for any and all Unix based OSes in the wild (this includes Linux and OS X), that is because by design Unix is a far superior OS when it comes to security.  It is also superior when it comes to design.
> 
> You don't have the "bloat," with Unix based OSes like you do Windows.  This is because you can compile an OS from the kernel up to build what you want it to do.  It is very modular.  Where as Microsoft Windows has very all or nothing monolithic approach.   You get all of it, including all the legacy code, the bloated registry, and the OS itself allows kernel hooks so APIs and things like drivers can get direct access to a kernel with out authentication, which is a huge security risk.
> 
> I could go on and on how Unix (and all Unix based OSes) allow for developers to use sockets for multiple processes a certain application may need to run, and set one to run as root so the developer can control what escalated access goes where, unlike Windows.   Most people don't care about these differences and they will always come back to say things like I can run my DX 11 video card in Windows.  So, that is why I won't delve into this too much.
> 
> Sadly also, Open GL is far more powerful and robust than Direct X, but developers use DX because it is easier.  If all games were just coded in Open GL to begin with you could easily port them to any OS you wanted to.



I love reading your posts, I learn so much.  

Let me rephrase that..no OS is anywhere NEAR perfect.  There are many things that piss me off on OSX, Windows, and Linux.  And I f***ing hate it when people say things like macs never crash or "it just works".  Because all of that is a straight up lie.  Back in the days of XP and Tiger..they both crashed and ran into problems considerably often.  OSX though is too basic for it's own good.  Maybe not technologically, but visually and in options.  The options that are easily available are pathetic.  For example, lack of any DPI options, or closing lid options on laptops.  It also sucks that you're really only supposed to use it on macs, which I can never justify purchasing new.  Windows...while your easy to use and customize, I could really do without about half the crap you include on the install.  Yes, it looks pretty, and has more options, but it can be very needy.  Linux..You're way too user unfriendly to get setup.  Once it's set up it's great, but It's an absolute chore to install it on 3 computers with totally different components.  I can't get all of the hardware working on one let alone all three.


----------



## tlarkin

speedyink said:


> I love reading your posts, I learn so much.
> 
> Let me rephrase that..no OS is anywhere NEAR perfect.  There are many things that piss me off on OSX, Windows, and Linux.  And I f***ing hate it when people say things like macs never crash or "it just works".  Because all of that is a straight up lie.  Back in the days of XP and Tiger..they both crashed and ran into problems considerably often.  OSX though is too basic for it's own good.  Maybe not technologically, but visually and in options.  The options that are easily available are pathetic.  For example, lack of any DPI options, or closing lid options on laptops.  It also sucks that you're really only supposed to use it on macs, which I can never justify purchasing new.  Windows...while your easy to use and customize, I could really do without about half the crap you include on the install.  Yes, it looks pretty, and has more options, but it can be very needy.  Linux..You're way too user unfriendly to get setup.  Once it's set up it's great, but It's an absolute chore to install it on 3 computers with totally different components.  I can't get all of the hardware working on one let alone all three.



I just upgraded my HTPC to Ubuntu 10.10 last night.  Only got about 20 minutes of playing with it so far, but the new interface face lift is nice.   Smooth, fast and responsive and it looks good.  Reminds me of a Mac to be honest.  You may want to give the new Ubuntu a try in a virtual machine or something.

What exactly are you looking for on closing laptop lid options?   Like keep the wifi on if you close the lid?


----------



## Quiltface

tlarkin said:


> I just upgraded my HTPC to Ubuntu 10.10 last night.  Only got about 20 minutes of playing with it so far, but the new interface face lift is nice.   Smooth, fast and responsive and it looks good.  Reminds me of a Mac to be honest.  You may want to give the new Ubuntu a try in a virtual machine or something.
> 
> What exactly are you looking for on closing laptop lid options?   Like keep the wifi on if you close the lid?



I found U 10.10 to be rather laggy in comparison to the prior release... 10.04?  

And I forget the guys name (creator of ubuntu) built ubuntu with mac in mind.  Like menu styles and interface etc...


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> I just upgraded my HTPC to Ubuntu 10.10 last night.  Only got about 20 minutes of playing with it so far, but the new interface face lift is nice.   Smooth, fast and responsive and it looks good.  Reminds me of a Mac to be honest.  You may want to give the new Ubuntu a try in a virtual machine or something.
> 
> What exactly are you looking for on closing laptop lid options?   Like keep the wifi on if you close the lid?



Ill have to try it.  Last one I tried was 9. Something.  The option I want is the computer to not go to sleep when I close the lid.  This conflicts with how I transport the things around.  Or when I wanna save some battery when downloading or something.


----------



## tlarkin

speedyink said:


> Ill have to try it.  Last one I tried was 9. Something.  The option I want the the computer to not go to sleep when I close the lid.  This conflicts with how I transport the things around.  Or when I wanna save some battery when downloading something.



closing the lid and keeping it on is the same as putting the screen to sleep, otherwise all components work the same.  Sort of a moot point unless you want it to be downloading things while in a backpack.


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> closing the lid and keeping it on is the same as putting the screen to sleep, otherwise all components work the same.  Sort of a moot point unless you want it to be downloading things while in a backpack.



Listening to music.  The fact is, everything it is doing stops when it's in sleep mode.  Otherwise, if I had the option, when you close the lid just the display turns off, which as we all know takes a significant amount of the battery.  There's many instances in my use of the device that yes, I would love that option.  I'm not sure why your telling me why _I_ don't need it.


----------



## CrayonMuncher

Sorry to bump this back up as we all know we have had many of these threads before.

I remember someone in this thread saying how apple user in general had a attitude of acting better than the rest, i have never expeirenced this first hand until now, and i know a good few mac users.

I was buying a salad with my gf and i'm like "look it's an ipad, the same thing my friend wants to get"

i said this quietly so as interrupt what he was doing and i clearly said Ipad.

his words to me with such condescension were 

"it's a Ipad, not an Ipod" as if i insulted him directly, all i was trying to do was point out that tablet pc's in general are kind of cool.
so lucky i'm not drunk and start babbling about various in depth tech specs to just to see if they know anything because i like conversations about all aspects of tech (the has never happened btw, usually they know less than nothing)

i just say 

"i know it is an ipad, i work in computing" and continue to talk about the rumors of Ipad2 release in feb-aprill of next year (which he knows nothing about).
this dude was such a _______ (insert expletive here) and as soon as i mentioned computing it's kind of like he realised that i would not call it an ipod and worked out he made a complete ass of himself just to try and look like he knows something.
sorry to rant, but people that act like this really annoy me, just thought i'd share it and also make him look like an idiot to everyone on here, lol.


----------



## tlarkin

speedyink said:


> Listening to music.  The fact is, everything it is doing stops when it's in sleep mode.  Otherwise, if I had the option, when you close the lid just the display turns off, which as we all know takes a significant amount of the battery.  There's many instances in my use of the device that yes, I would love that option.  I'm not sure why your telling me why _I_ don't need it.



I just don't personally see any application for such technology I would really want to use.  My iPod and smart phone play music and are way more accessible and easier to use than a closed lid laptop in my backpack.

This of course, is just like my opinion man...
[YT]QsogswrH6ck[/YT]


I mean if that is really a deal breaker feature for you, then that is OK.  However, when I look at laptops I look at mobility.  I don't really view it as a giant iPod.  Plus if the drives are spinning while you are carrying it around it just increases your chances at drive failure.  I mean there are good reasons it gets put to sleep and the HD stops spinning when you close the lid, because that is how you transport it.


> innercx  	 Sorry to bump this back up as we all know we have had many of these threads before.
> 
> I remember someone in this thread saying how apple user in general had a attitude of acting better than the rest, i have never expeirenced this first hand until now, and i know a good few mac users.
> 
> I was buying a salad with my gf and i'm like "look it's an ipad, the same thing my friend wants to get"
> 
> i said this quietly so as interrupt what he was doing and i clearly said Ipad.
> 
> his words to me with such condescension were
> 
> "it's a Ipad, not an Ipod" as if i insulted him directly, all i was trying to do was point out that tablet pc's in general are kind of cool.
> so lucky i'm not drunk and start babbling about various in depth tech specs to just to see if they know anything because i like conversations about all aspects of tech (the has never happened btw, usually they know less than nothing)
> 
> i just say
> 
> "i know it is an ipad, i work in computing" and continue to talk about the rumors of Ipad2 release in feb-aprill of next year (which he knows nothing about).
> this dude was such a _______ (insert expletive here) and as soon as i mentioned computing it's kind of like he realised that i would not call it an ipod and worked out he made a complete ass of himself just to try and look like he knows something.
> sorry to rant, but people that act like this really annoy me, just thought i'd share it and also make him look like an idiot to everyone on here, lol.


Some people are just jerks and that is not the fault of Apple.   That guy is probably the same way with everything.  Cars, video games, clothes, etc.

It is called a Porsche (Porsha) not porsh, things like that etc.


----------



## awildgoose

tlarkin said:


> It is called a Porsche (Porsha) not porsh, things like that etc.



This is kinda really off topic, but you are meant to pronounce Porsche as Porsha? I never knew that.

To keep it on topic.
I too do not see why you would have a laptop still working its bits while walking around, I tried that once (although not in the same way) and it didn't work, could be because of bumps or unlucky day.

The elitism by mac people, well I do not see it too much except from people who do not know much about the computers in the first place.
One of my friends, decent bloke, don't know jack, keeps telling me it has been a proven fact that windows runs on Mac better than a home built machine, I ask for proof he says his old laptop was really slow 

I like Macs, don't see a problem with them, just do not tell him that.

Question Tlarkin, most (as in people I know and from CoFo) people don't know as much about them as you do except for "crap can't upgrade blah blah blah".
Where did you learn this?
Just wondering 'cus out business the software doesn't work on Macs (unless you run in windows mode but then what is the point) so I don't get too much experience with them.


----------



## tlarkin

awildgoose said:


> This is kinda really off topic, but you are meant to pronounce Porsche as Porsha? I never knew that.



Yeah but only the elitist and car snobs really know that.  Plus it is a German word not English so phonetically it may be harder for an English speaking person to pronounce properly.  Even though English is a Germanic language.





> The elitism by mac people, well I do not see it too much except from people who do not know much about the computers in the first place.
> One of my friends, decent bloke, don't know jack, keeps telling me it has been a proven fact that windows runs on Mac better than a home built machine, I ask for proof he says his old laptop was really slow



It is the same thing as, oh wow Macs don't have DX11 video cards which game developers don't even write code for yet, therefore obsolete or not really just an invalid point.  To my knowledge almost all video games are 32-bit apps, which means they cannot address anything larger than 4gigs of RAM, and they are almost always built off of last generation Direct X so they can hit a wider target audience.  I am not saying having the latest video card won't boost your performance, but what I am saying is a lot of times it will be unnoticeable in real world application.  Though you constantly see gamers wanting to build dream rigs with 8+ gigs of RAM and dual SLI/Xfire of the latest video cards.  In all reality it is a waste of money as you can build something with less specs and perform almost on par in actual application.





> Question Tlarkin, most (as in people I know and from CoFo) people don't know as much about them as you do except for "crap can't upgrade blah blah blah".
> Where did you learn this?
> Just wondering 'cus out business the software doesn't work on Macs (unless you run in windows mode but then what is the point) so I don't get too much experience with them.



Most of it from work, some from reading books, and a lot of it also from online communities of Mac users.  Same thing with Linux.  Just find a good online community, hop on a mailing list, join a forum, read a book, etc.


----------



## awildgoose

tlarkin said:


> Yeah but only the elitist and car snobs really know that.  Plus it is a German word not English so phonetically it may be harder for an English speaking person to pronounce properly.  Even though English is a Germanic language.


For some reason I think I should of known that lol, I have car mags (not just ricer ones) filling up boxes in my room and I did not know that, well I knew it was german, just the pronunciation.



> It is the same thing as, oh wow Macs don't have DX11 video cards which game developers don't even write code for yet, therefore obsolete or not really just an invalid point.  To my knowledge almost all video games are 32-bit apps, which means they cannot address anything larger than 4gigs of RAM, and they are almost always built off of last generation Direct X so they can hit a wider target audience.  I am not saying having the latest video card won't boost your performance, but what I am saying is a lot of times it will be unnoticeable in real world application.  Though you constantly see gamers wanting to build dream rigs with 8+ gigs of RAM and dual SLI/Xfire of the latest video cards.  In all reality it is a waste of money as you can build something with less specs and perform almost on par in actual application.


 That is really true. I had built a computer for $400 (ok well maybe just components for that much) and ran games the same as a friends $godknowshowmuchmoney computer, mainly because of the 32-bit you were talking about, ok maybe a tiny bit slower but you know what I mean.
And the only 64 bit game I know of doesn't even run too well (Crysis has a 64bit choice).



> Most of it from work, some from reading books, and a lot of it also from online communities of Mac users.  Same thing with Linux.  Just find a good online community, hop on a mailing list, join a forum, read a book, etc.


Ahh that makes sense, all the book stores around me don't have too much to do with computing and the newsagents (dunno if thats our word or an international one) has maybe 2 computers ones, all to do with cars and off-road lol.

About Macs, there are really only a handful of things I don't like as much about them. 1 I work on my case a lot, different mods and such(but that is not a global thing anyway). 2) I like tinkering and buying components (much like people and cars around the 80's, I don't have money for both so computers it is) to play with. and 3) the software we use doesn't work too great.

I reckon there are just as many things a Mac can do that a PC can't (well in the same way people say a Mac can't do what a windows PC can. Which there are some things but as you said previously that gap is becoming smaller).


----------



## dave1701

I say porch


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> I just don't personally see any application for such technology I would really want to use.  My iPod and smart phone play music and are way more accessible and easier to use than a closed lid laptop in my backpack.
> 
> This of course, is just like my opinion man...
> 
> I mean if that is really a deal breaker feature for you, then that is OK.  However, when I look at laptops I look at mobility.  I don't really view it as a giant iPod.  Plus if the drives are spinning while you are carrying it around it just increases your chances at drive failure.  I mean there are good reasons it gets put to sleep and the HD stops spinning when you close the lid, because that is how you transport it.



My phone and ipod don't have a 250gb+ storage capacity.  I put the most regularly listened to music on those, which is fine for around town.  But as someone who travels, I like to take my whole library with me.  I'm still not sure where the backpack comes from..I have a 9" netbook that, when CLOSED, fits very nicely under my arm.  I'm not an idiot, I'm not going to be throwing my computer around while it's on, I know what happens.  I'm smart enough to put my computer in sleep mode when need be (say actually throwing it in the backpack), but I also like the option to not go to sleep.  I'm not so lazy that I need my computer to do it every time I close the lid, in fact it's downright annoying sometimes.  Yes, this is a dealbreaker for me, and no, i don't view my computers as oversized ipods, as I have regular sized ipods.  My whole point is that OSX just chooses options like this for us, like we're not smart enough or like we'd never want the option in the first place.  Just because you may not encounter it doesn't mean it doesn't piss me off greatly when I close the lid without thinking and boom, my computer stops dead in it's tracks to go to sleep, because someone thought "who needs an option when I am always right?"




tlarkin said:


> It is the same thing as, oh wow Macs don't have DX11 video cards which game developers don't even write code for yet, therefore obsolete or not really just an invalid point.  To my knowledge almost all video games are 32-bit apps, which means they cannot address anything larger than 4gigs of RAM, and they are almost always built off of last generation Direct X so they can hit a wider target audience.  I am not saying having the latest video card won't boost your performance, but what I am saying is a lot of times it will be unnoticeable in real world application.  Though you constantly see gamers wanting to build dream rigs with 8+ gigs of RAM and dual SLI/Xfire of the latest video cards.  In all reality it is a waste of money as you can build something with less specs and perform almost on par in actual application.



That I can agree with.  Maybe because I'm not huge into video games in the first place but it still blows my mind that people spend that kind of money on computers just to keep the graphics maxed out.


----------



## tlarkin

speedyink said:


> My phone and ipod don't have a 250gb+ storage capacity.  I put the most regularly listened to music on those, which is fine for around town.  But as someone who travels, I like to take my whole library with me.  I'm still not sure where the backpack comes from..I have a 9" netbook that, when CLOSED, fits very nicely under my arm.  I'm not an idiot, I'm not going to be throwing my computer around while it's on, I know what happens.  I'm smart enough to put my computer in sleep mode when need be (say actually throwing it in the backpack), but I also like the option to not go to sleep.  I'm not so lazy that I need my computer to do it every time I close the lid, in fact it's downright annoying sometimes.  Yes, this is a dealbreaker for me, and no, i don't view my computers as oversized ipods, as I have regular sized ipods.  My whole point is that OSX just chooses options like this for us, like we're not smart enough or like we'd never want the option in the first place.  Just because you may not encounter it doesn't mean it doesn't piss me off greatly when I close the lid without thinking and boom, my computer stops dead in it's tracks to go to sleep, because someone thought "who needs an option when I am always right?"



well no one is calling you stupid, I was just questioning the validity of the claim that you cannot do this with OS X and a Mac.   I also was wanting to know application.  For me, when I use my Macbook Pro it is on a table, desk, or my lap and I am using it.  When I am not using it, it is in my backpack.   

However, after a quick look via Google and some command lines I have some solutions for you.   First and foremost, you actually can set your Mac laptop to remain awake when the lid is closed, via pmset.  Which is a CLI binary to controls power management.  Believe it or not, Windows has a command line binary for power management as well, but the name escapes me at the moment.

snip from the man page


		Code:
	

PMSET(1)                  BSD General Commands Manual                 PMSET(1)

NAME
     pmset -- manipulate power management settings

SYNOPSIS
     pmset [-a | -b | -c | -u] [displaysleep minutes] [disksleep minutes] [sleep minutes] [womp 1/0] [ring 1/0] [autorestart 1/0]
           [dps 1/0] [reduce 1/0] [powerbutton 1/0] [lidwake 1/0] [acwake 1/0] [lessbright 1/0] [halfdim 1/0] [sms 1/0] [boot]
     pmset -u [haltlevel percent] [haltafter minutes] [haltremain minutes]
     pmset -g [custom | live | cap | sched | ups | ps | pslog | rawlog]
     pmset schedule [cancel] type date+time [owner]
     pmset repeat cancel
     pmset repeat type weekdays time
     pmset [touch | sleepnow | noidle | lock]


Actual code to set the Mac laptop not to sleep when the lid is closed:


		Code:
	

sudo pmset -a lidwake 0


Now to check our work: (let me actually do this on a laptop...)


		Code:
	

bash-3.2# pmset -g
Active Profiles:
Battery Power		-1
AC Power		-1*
Currently in use:
 sleep		10
 sms		1
 acwake		0
 displaysleep	10
 autorestart	0
 hibernatefile	/var/vm/sleepimage
 hibernatemode	3
 womp		1
 halfdim	1
 disksleep	10
 [COLOR="Red"]lidwake	0[/COLOR]
 ttyskeepawake	1


0 = off
1 = on

Disabling lid wake turns off both the put to sleep and wake function from opening and closing the lid.  Alternatively there are several third party applications that give you this functionality if you prefer to do it through a GUI.

Apple keeps it simple and in their view most users won't need this feature and it may cause problems if they move around their laptop in their bag with a spinning HD.  Like, is your grandma going to know that?   How about someone who barely uses computers?  While you may take disagreement with Apple's stance, their OS is very robust in what you can do to customize it.  You just have to learn it.  If you google search disable sleep when lid is closed on a Macbook you would have eventually found both solutions.

InsomniaX is the app I am talking about Google it and you will find it.   So, even if it is a deal breaker you can still do it.  Windows has man of the restrictions and customizations but you may be used to using the Windows GUI over the command line, or perhaps even the registry.  However, I still think your actual preference is with Windows boxes, and that is cool too.  Everyone has their own opinion.


----------



## brian

tlarkin said:


> well no one is calling you stupid, I was just questioning the validity of the claim that you cannot do this with OS X and a Mac.   I also was wanting to know application.  For me, when I use my Macbook Pro it is on a table, desk, or my lap and I am using it.  When I am not using it, it is in my backpack.
> 
> However, after a quick look via Google and some command lines I have some solutions for you.   First and foremost, you actually can set your Mac laptop to remain awake when the lid is closed, via pmset.  Which is a CLI binary to controls power management.  Believe it or not, Windows has a command line binary for power management as well, but the name escapes me at the moment.
> 
> snip from the man page
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> PMSET(1)                  BSD General Commands Manual                 PMSET(1)
> 
> NAME
> pmset -- manipulate power management settings
> 
> SYNOPSIS
> pmset [-a | -b | -c | -u] [displaysleep minutes] [disksleep minutes] [sleep minutes] [womp 1/0] [ring 1/0] [autorestart 1/0]
> [dps 1/0] [reduce 1/0] [powerbutton 1/0] [lidwake 1/0] [acwake 1/0] [lessbright 1/0] [halfdim 1/0] [sms 1/0] [boot]
> pmset -u [haltlevel percent] [haltafter minutes] [haltremain minutes]
> pmset -g [custom | live | cap | sched | ups | ps | pslog | rawlog]
> pmset schedule [cancel] type date+time [owner]
> pmset repeat cancel
> pmset repeat type weekdays time
> pmset [touch | sleepnow | noidle | lock]
> 
> 
> Actual code to set the Mac laptop not to sleep when the lid is closed:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> sudo pmset -a lidwake 0
> 
> 
> Now to check our work: (let me actually do this on a laptop...)
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> bash-3.2# pmset -g
> Active Profiles:
> Battery Power		-1
> AC Power		-1*
> Currently in use:
> sleep		10
> sms		1
> acwake		0
> displaysleep	10
> autorestart	0
> hibernatefile	/var/vm/sleepimage
> hibernatemode	3
> womp		1
> halfdim	1
> disksleep	10
> [COLOR="Red"]lidwake	0[/COLOR]
> ttyskeepawake	1
> 
> 
> 0 = off
> 1 = on
> 
> Disabling lid wake turns off both the put to sleep and wake function from opening and closing the lid.  Alternatively there are several third party applications that give you this functionality if you prefer to do it through a GUI.
> 
> Apple keeps it simple and in their view most users won't need this feature and it may cause problems if they move around their laptop in their bag with a spinning HD.  Like, is your grandma going to know that?   How about someone who barely uses computers?  While you may take disagreement with Apple's stance, their OS is very robust in what you can do to customize it.  You just have to learn it.  If you google search disable sleep when lid is closed on a Macbook you would have eventually found both solutions.
> 
> InsomniaX is the app I am talking about Google it and you will find it.   So, even if it is a deal breaker you can still do it.  Windows has man of the restrictions and customizations but you may be used to using the Windows GUI over the command line, or perhaps even the registry.  However, I still think your actual preference is with Windows boxes, and that is cool too.  Everyone has their own opinion.



Insomniax is a great application. Something every mac user should have IMHO


----------



## Thanatos

what i don't like about apple is that when i buy from them, it always seems like they are trying to cheat me of my money or something. Like with the ipod shuffle with the controls on the earphone cord. really? it broke in a week.


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> well no one is calling you stupid, I was just questioning the validity of the claim that you cannot do this with OS X and a Mac.   I also was wanting to know application.  For me, when I use my Macbook Pro it is on a table, desk, or my lap and I am using it.  When I am not using it, it is in my backpack.
> 
> However, after a quick look via Google and some command lines I have some solutions for you.   First and foremost, you actually can set your Mac laptop to remain awake when the lid is closed, via pmset.  Which is a CLI binary to controls power management.  Believe it or not, Windows has a command line binary for power management as well, but the name escapes me at the moment.
> 
> snip from the man page
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> PMSET(1)                  BSD General Commands Manual                 PMSET(1)
> 
> NAME
> pmset -- manipulate power management settings
> 
> SYNOPSIS
> pmset [-a | -b | -c | -u] [displaysleep minutes] [disksleep minutes] [sleep minutes] [womp 1/0] [ring 1/0] [autorestart 1/0]
> [dps 1/0] [reduce 1/0] [powerbutton 1/0] [lidwake 1/0] [acwake 1/0] [lessbright 1/0] [halfdim 1/0] [sms 1/0] [boot]
> pmset -u [haltlevel percent] [haltafter minutes] [haltremain minutes]
> pmset -g [custom | live | cap | sched | ups | ps | pslog | rawlog]
> pmset schedule [cancel] type date+time [owner]
> pmset repeat cancel
> pmset repeat type weekdays time
> pmset [touch | sleepnow | noidle | lock]
> 
> 
> Actual code to set the Mac laptop not to sleep when the lid is closed:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> sudo pmset -a lidwake 0
> 
> 
> Now to check our work: (let me actually do this on a laptop...)
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> bash-3.2# pmset -g
> Active Profiles:
> Battery Power		-1
> AC Power		-1*
> Currently in use:
> sleep		10
> sms		1
> acwake		0
> displaysleep	10
> autorestart	0
> hibernatefile	/var/vm/sleepimage
> hibernatemode	3
> womp		1
> halfdim	1
> disksleep	10
> [COLOR="Red"]lidwake	0[/COLOR]
> ttyskeepawake	1
> 
> 
> 0 = off
> 1 = on
> 
> Disabling lid wake turns off both the put to sleep and wake function from opening and closing the lid.  Alternatively there are several third party applications that give you this functionality if you prefer to do it through a GUI.
> 
> Apple keeps it simple and in their view most users won't need this feature and it may cause problems if they move around their laptop in their bag with a spinning HD.  Like, is your grandma going to know that?   How about someone who barely uses computers?  While you may take disagreement with Apple's stance, their OS is very robust in what you can do to customize it.  You just have to learn it.  If you google search disable sleep when lid is closed on a Macbook you would have eventually found both solutions.
> 
> InsomniaX is the app I am talking about Google it and you will find it.   So, even if it is a deal breaker you can still do it.  Windows has man of the restrictions and customizations but you may be used to using the Windows GUI over the command line, or perhaps even the registry.  However, I still think your actual preference is with Windows boxes, and that is cool too.  Everyone has their own opinion.



Actually I've already googled it, found the app, though not the command stuff.  I just never got around to downloading the app, and command lines aren't my thing.  I think such a simple feature should be included, and not buried in command line, or waiting for a third party to make an application for it.  I understand what your saying about people screwing up their hard drives, but don't all macbooks have SMS's?  Also, leave it on as default like windows, save the tech challenged people, but don't stunt the more advanced users ability to change things.  I really don't want to download an app or dive into command line whenever I want to change a somewhat advanced setting.

I know Windows isn't perfect either, I had to download a program to enable scroll on mouse hover, but this kinda kills a lot of the mac mindsets all the dick mac owners keep telling me (easiest to use, it just works etc.)

And your right, I prefer Windows.  I have 3 macs and 3 Pc's, and yes, I prefer the pc's for my daily tasks.  I have used PC's longer, I know how to get around faster, and I really can't find any benefits to why I would totally switch to mac.

I know you don't understand why I like having such functionality, nor will you ever.  Kinda like how I will never understand why you prefer to change settings in command lines.


----------



## Ethan3.14159

Green dog252 said:


> what i don't like about apple is that when i buy from them, it always seems like they are trying to cheat me of my money or something. Like with the ipod shuffle with the controls on the earphone cord. really? it broke in a week.


You know those come with a warranty, right? So, they aren't trying to cheat you out of money.


----------



## tlarkin

speedyink said:


> Actually I've already googled it, found the app, though not the command stuff.  I just never got around to downloading the app, and command lines aren't my thing.  I think such a simple feature should be included, and not buried in command line, or waiting for a third party to make an application for it.  I understand what your saying about people screwing up their hard drives, but don't all macbooks have SMS's?  Also, leave it on as default like windows, save the tech challenged people, but don't stunt the more advanced users ability to change things.  I really don't want to download an app or dive into command line whenever I want to change a somewhat advanced setting.
> 
> I know Windows isn't perfect either, I had to download a program to enable scroll on mouse hover, but this kinda kills a lot of the mac mindsets all the dick mac owners keep telling me (easiest to use, it just works etc.)
> 
> And your right, I prefer Windows.  I have 3 macs and 3 Pc's, and yes, I prefer the pc's for my daily tasks.  I have used PC's longer, I know how to get around faster, and I really can't find any benefits to why I would totally switch to mac.
> 
> I know you don't understand why I like having such functionality, nor will you ever.  Kinda like how I will never understand why you prefer to change settings in command lines.



While I will not disagree with you but there are also plenty of features Windows does not have native, and also requires third party apps to customize certain things.  Sometimes you gotta use registry modifications.

My point is, in OS X anything is probably possible with in reason, but you may have to dig deeper than the GUI to find it.


----------



## Dramen

I've never even used an Apple computer because they are not in my price range and they don't use them at school, so I can't really say what I prefer.  I have an ipod which has a mind of it's own but is still going strong and it's one of the original Nano's so they must be doing something right.  

It doesn't matter what the product is, people will always debate and say stuff sucks or is fantastic, I'm just glad I have a computer that does what I want it to do.


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> While I will not disagree with you but there are also plenty of features Windows does not have native, and also requires third party apps to customize certain things.  Sometimes you gotta use registry modifications.
> 
> My point is, in OS X anything is probably possible with in reason, but you may have to dig deeper than the GUI to find it.



Ok, time to prove this.  I've been trying to find a way to properly change the dpi on osx so I can read the text on my tv withouth walking up to the screen.  Please help!


----------



## tlarkin

speedyink said:


> Ok, time to prove this.  I've been trying to find a way to properly change the dpi on osx so I can read the text on my tv withouth walking up to the screen.  Please help!



what version of OS X?


----------



## iGeekOFComedy

speedyink said:


> Ok, time to prove this.  I've been trying to find a way to properly change the dpi on osx so I can read the text on my tv withouth walking up to the screen.  Please help!



Tinkertool should do it


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> what version of OS X?



Leopard



iGeekOFComedy said:


> Tinkertool should do it



Ooh, sounds cool, ill google it


----------



## patrickv

*Wtf ?*

Why bother make a thread like this ? Do we have one called
*The Hate On Microsoft Thread* ?

(cause i'd be the first to start ranting)
grow up people 

anyway I won't hate but I'd rather appreciate. I've had 3 ipods over the years and not a single problem with them, not even with itunes.

However, not hating, I don't like the iphone. Geez I don't know why, It's just not the type of phone I fancy...


----------



## tlarkin

speedyink said:


> Leopard
> 
> 
> 
> Ooh, sounds cool, ill google it



The only thing I know of is in the developer tools, with x11 and quartz and I have never tried it, but I hear it doesn't really look that good when you change DPI settings.

http://efreedom.com/Question/3-13412/Change-DPI-OSX


----------



## Quiltface

i loathe itunes, my mom uses it and when she got a new computer it was a pain to move all of her songs to her new computer.  wanted to format her ipod and then wouldn't recognize any of the songs i copied over to her new computer.  I eventually had to download a program someone wrote to specifically do the task i was trying to do... why apple made that such a pain i will never know....  or then again i might find out pretty soon 

o also i came over the other day and she had another problem with itunes, it updated itself (or she updated it) and it wanted to format her ipod again because it didnt recognize that device as being with that computer...  I've had these problems in the past with ipod/itunes.... maybe that is where my annoyance with apple comes from i just assume everything they make is like that.

my sony mp3 player will sync with anything, any computer or you don't have to sync it all if you just want to drag mp3s to it.  and it has yet to tell me that it needs to erase all of my songs because i hooked it up to my laptop as opposed to my desktop.

so i will just say this... i hate itunes/ipod's not apple.  (since i have yet to use a relevent MacOS)


and i agree with you patrickv... why does this thread exist? and better yet... why do i find myself posting on it still?

People love to hate I guess.  I bet if i start a I love Computers thread it wouldn't be that popular, 2-3 pages tops i bet.


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> The only thing I know of is in the developer tools, with x11 and quartz and I have never tried it, but I hear it doesn't really look that good when you change DPI settings.
> 
> http://efreedom.com/Question/3-13412/Change-DPI-OSX



I'll give that a shot on my netbook right now, I think it's got x11 and quartz installed Edit: Nope, maybe not.  As for my macbook, would those tools be included on the bundled reinstallation dvd's?  I'd check but they are at my parents house atm.

Gonna try tinkertools.  This would also help greatly with the touchscreen on my netbook..theres a lot of ridiculously small buttons..

Edit:  Huh..while it does add a lot of options, I don't see any DPI options...am I blind?


----------



## tlarkin

It should be a tool in the quartz debug application.  I don't have my macbook pro handy at the moment but I can boot it up later and check it out.


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> It should be a tool in the quartz debug application.  I don't have my macbook pro handy at the moment but I can boot it up later and check it out.



Yeah I know, I was referring to tinkertools.  I don't have Quartz yet, I'll have to go to my parents house and pick up the dvds.  Though after some research I hear it may not be worth the effort.  I'll get to trying it at least, I just don't particularly want to go to my parents house today (obligatory visit)


----------



## BLK1985

Awesome!!!


----------



## bkribbs

I think it depends what you want. I love my iPod touch, and while yes, it may be marked up a ton, it is the best device like it. For me, the Zune isn't close. It depends on what you want. 

And personally, I think that if you have a problem with it, then you need to just stay away from it and don't complain, everyone can make their own decisions. 

I would vote for this thread to be locked as all that will come out of this is an argument.


----------



## lucasbytegenius

bkribbs said:


> I think it depends what you want. I love my iPod touch, and while yes, it may be marked up a ton, it is the best device like it. For me, the Zune isn't close. It depends on what you want.
> 
> And personally, I think that if you have a problem with it, then you need to just stay away from it and don't complain, everyone can make their own decisions.
> 
> I would vote for this thread to be locked as all that will come out of this is an argument.


I second that motion.


----------



## fastdude

lucasbytegenius said:


> I second that motion.



+3

It'll just become another rabble like all the other Apple vs Microsoft threads.
Though there are a few people with questions still to be answered.


----------



## tlarkin

bkribbs said:


> I think it depends what you want. I love my iPod touch, and while yes, it may be marked up a ton, it is the best device like it. For me, the Zune isn't close. It depends on what you want.
> 
> And personally, I think that if you have a problem with it, then you need to just stay away from it and don't complain, everyone can make their own decisions.
> 
> I would vote for this thread to be locked as all that will come out of this is an argument.



Most people, even people who claim to be computer knowledgeable don't understand the fundamentals of how a computer system even works.  They won't know what binary, bit, byte, 32bit, 64bit, kernel, shell, stacks, cycles, etc are how comprehend how they actually work.

They will know only how to spout of specifications, which doesn't make up for what a computer is.  I hate to use car analogies because I do not think they quite parallel computers, but a good one here using cars would be many cars have a V6 engine in them, but some 4 cylinder cars out perform the 6 cylinders and it is due to better engineering.   Many cars also get 30 MPG and can get you from point A to point B, but not all of them are engineered with the same quality.

I agree threads like this should just be locked because the people who hate on Macs know the least about them, and are usually not willing to learn the differences.


----------



## CannerBan

My mom uses an macbook pro and I use backtrack and ubuntu.
I say linux owns because it's totally free.
Though the macbook is really great for eyecandy n lightning fast photoshop and indesign stuff,


----------



## CannerBan

tlarkin said:


> Most people, even people who claim to be computer knowledgeable don't understand the fundamentals of how a computer system even works.  They won't know what binary, bit, byte, 32bit, 64bit, kernel,* shell, stacks, cycles, etc *are how comprehend how they actually work.



So what are shell, stacks, cycles, etc? 
I pretty much knew all the previous things but just couldn't figure out what the last four were.


----------



## TrainTrackHack

> but some 4 cylinder cars out perform the 6 cylinders and it is due to better engineering.


I know, I'm being pedantic, but...

Usually this is simply a case of less weight and more turbos/"performance-enhancing-things"/aftermarker parts than actual superior engineering.


----------



## TFT

> I agree threads like this should just be locked because the people who hate on Macs know the least about them, and are usually not willing to learn the differences.



Sorry, but that is squeezing out the right to express an opinion, irrespective of whether that person knows what he's talking about or not. This subject is your forte and it must annoy you when the majority of posts are verbal diarrhoea but ............ 
The time for locking a thread should only be if it veers completely off topic, members slagging each other or the posts become abusive.


----------



## tlarkin

CannerBan said:


> So what are shell, stacks, cycles, etc?
> I pretty much knew all the previous things but just couldn't figure out what the last four were.



The kernel and the shell have a direct relation, stacks are structured data, cycle is the basic operation of a CPU.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_(computing)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_(data_structure)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPU_cycle



> I know, I'm being pedantic, but...
> 
> Usually this is simply a case of less weight and more turbos/"performance-enhancing-things"/aftermarker parts than actual superior engineering.



This analogy also applies to the Mac, as the OS is way more light weight compared to Windows.   I try to not to use car analogies though as I think they don't quite parallel into the world of computers.  However, a lot of people can relate to cars so often times people use them.



> Sorry, but that is squeezing out the right to express an opinion, irrespective of whether that person knows what he's talking about or not. This subject is your forte and it must annoy you when the majority of posts are verbal diarrhoea but ............
> The time for locking a thread should only be if it veers completely off topic, members slagging each other or the posts become abusive.



First and foremost I am 100% against censorship, however threads like this don't lead to anywhere productive.  They also tend to bring out plenty of misinformation.   Locking it would prevent further wrong information from being posted, and stop any petty arguments, but for the most part this thread has been civil I suppose.  After all this is a computer forum, and should it not at least provide computer advice that is at least some what accurate?   

Opinions are fine, but when a thread specifically created with extreme bias and zero facts to talk about technology is well, just not really good for the site in my opinion.


----------



## Okedokey

tlarkin said:


> They will know only how to spout of specifications, which doesn't make up for what a computer is.



thats what specifications are for, so you don't need to know what micro-element is involved... nothing difficult about computer science mate... its pretty basic actually, especially on consumer products.  Try avionics, that's a head ****.



tlarkin said:


> I agree threads like this should just be locked because the people who hate on Macs know the least about them, and are usually not willing to learn the differences.



at least we agree about one thing....

most useless thread ever - cost is what someone will pay, that is all.


----------



## bkribbs

tlarkin said:


> The kernel and the shell have a direct relation, stacks are structured data, cycle is the basic operation of a CPU.
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_(computing)
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_(data_structure)
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPU_cycle
> 
> 
> 
> This analogy also applies to the Mac, as the OS is way more light weight compared to Windows.   I try to not to use car analogies though as I think they don't quite parallel into the world of computers.  However, a lot of people can relate to cars so often times people use them.
> 
> 
> 
> *First and foremost I am 100% against censorship, however threads like this don't lead to anywhere productive.*  They also tend to bring out plenty of misinformation.   Locking it would prevent further wrong information from being posted, and stop any petty arguments, but for the most part this thread has been civil I suppose.  After all this is a computer forum, and should it not at least provide computer advice that is at least some what accurate?
> 
> *Opinions are fine, but when a thread specifically created with extreme bias and zero facts to talk about technology is well, just not really good for the site in my opinion.*



I agree.


----------



## Okedokey

mod pls, close, the internet is being clogged with mac vs gates rubbish.  just waiting for the open source f%gs to poke there heads up


----------



## zombine210

tlarkin said:


> Most people, even people who claim to be computer knowledgeable don't understand the fundamentals of how a computer system even works.  They won't know what binary, bit, byte, 32bit, 64bit, kernel, shell, stacks, cycles, etc are how comprehend how they actually work.
> 
> I agree threads like this should just be locked because the people who hate on Macs know the least about them, and are usually not willing to learn the differences.



i don't hate on MACs as i have never had the need to use one. it seems to me that MACs are designed for a specific group of users, which most of us don't fall under, making this specific group seem somewhat elitists. i think if MACs were priced lower it would actually hurt their image.

computer users differ from one person to the next, PCs (as used in this context) allows for customization based on the needs of many different fields from students to businessmen to engineers and artists. 

you don't really think taht *everybody* should know what bits, bytes, kernels and stacks are just to use a computer, do you? why should they? the only thing i care about is: can i do what i have to do efficiently?


----------



## bkribbs

zombine210 said:


> i don't hate on MACs as i have never had the need to use one. it seems to me that MACs are designed for a specific group of users, which most of us don't fall under, making this specific group seem somewhat elitists. i think if MACs were priced lower it would actually hurt their image.
> 
> computer users differ from one person to the next, PCs (as used in this context) allows for customization based on the needs of many different fields from students to businessmen to engineers and artists.
> 
> you don't really think that everybody should know what bits, bytes, kernels and stacks are just to use a computer, do you? why should they? the only thing i care about is: *can i do what i have to do efficiently?*



Are you implying that Macs are any less efficent then Windows? I use them equally, and one is not any better for the other in really any category.


----------



## zombine210

bkribbs said:


> Are you implying that Macs are any less efficent then Windows? I use them equally, and one is not any better for the other in really any category.





> efficient:  Acting or producing effectively with a minimum of waste, expense, or unnecessary effort.



sometimes they can be, depends on the use. if i only need an office suite, a $400 acer 5732z is plenty enough.


----------



## bkribbs

zombine210 said:


> sometimes they can be, depends on the use. if i only need an office suite, a $400 acer 5732z is plenty enough.



Well if you want to go that route, and all you need is an editor suite, couldn't you say that that is not efficient? Buy a 100 dollar netbook.


----------



## zombine210

bkribbs said:


> Well if you want to go that route, and all you need is an editor suite, couldn't you say that that is not efficient? Buy a 100 dollar netbook.



i could, which is the great thing about PCs, but...
screen is too small, can't see $#!7 
the ultimate argument was mac vs pc. the macbooks start at 1k, the extra $600 would be an extra expense, a waste. hence, for a college student, needing a laptop for office work, with mediocre crunching power, that would be inefficient.


----------



## tlarkin

zombine210 said:


> i don't hate on MACs as i have never had the need to use one. it seems to me that MACs are designed for a specific group of users, which most of us don't fall under, making this specific group seem somewhat elitists. i think if MACs were priced lower it would actually hurt their image.



MAC means something different in computing, it is simply Mac which is short for Macintosh.   Macs are computers designed for every user.  From the grandma who can barely surf the web and type emails, to the advance users like engineers that create things with their computers.



> computer users differ from one person to the next, PCs (as used in this context) allows for customization based on the needs of many different fields from students to businessmen to engineers and artists.



Macbooks are actually the number 1 sold laptop to college students.  Maybe your average college student wants a computer to work with their iPhone, iPod, has iTunes, and want the ability to do anything else with their computer.   Apple has an ever growing market share and has been growing steadily since 2006 when they switched to Intel.  In fact their market share is growing in business so much Autodesk finally released a native Mac version of Auto CAD.   Which was never heard of because Autodesk never thought it would be worth it since there were no Macs in businesses that needed it.  I think in the next 5 to 10 years you will see lots of businesses go 50/50 or even full on Mac.



> you don't really think taht *everybody* should know what bits, bytes, kernels and stacks are just to use a computer, do you? why should they? the only thing i care about is: can i do what i have to do efficiently?



You are construing my words a bit incorrectly here.   I never said that anyone and everyone needed to know that to use a computer, but if you want to give an in-depth analysis oh why 1 platform is better than the other, you should probably at least understand the fundamentals of how a computer works.  For example, I like to play Starcraft II and go to their forums.  They had a Mac versus PC thread over there and I ended up posting on it because people were just saying flat-out wrong information.  These were coming from people who claimed they knew what they were talking about, but were 100% wrong.   That is what I am saying.  If you are going to make such opinions, at least know the basics of how a computer works on a fundamental level before you do so.


----------



## TrainTrackHack

> just waiting for the open source f%gs to poke there heads up


Open what what?


----------



## bkribbs

tlarkin said:


> MAC means something different in computing, it is simply Mac which is short for Macintosh.   Macs are computers designed for every user.  From the grandma who can barely surf the web and type emails, to the advance users like engineers that create things with their computers.
> 
> 
> 
> Macbooks are actually the number 1 sold laptop to college students.  Maybe your average college student wants a computer to work with their iPhone, iPod, has iTunes, and want the ability to do anything else with their computer.   Apple has an ever growing market share and has been growing steadily since 2006 when they switched to Intel.  In fact their market share is growing in business so much Autodesk finally released a native Mac version of Auto CAD.   Which was never heard of because Autodesk never thought it would be worth it since there were no Macs in businesses that needed it. * I think in the next 5 to 10 years you will see lots of businesses go 50/50 or even full on Mac.*
> 
> 
> 
> *snip*



At my public High School, we have not bought a windows computer in at least 6 or 7 years. There are some around, but they are being slowly phased out for macs.


----------



## zombine210

tlarkin said:


> MAC means something different in computing, it is simply Mac which is short for Macintosh.   Macs are computers designed for every user.  From the grandma who can barely surf the web and type emails, to the advance users like engineers that create things with their computers.



i don't know about anybody else's grandma, but mine doesn't have $1000 to buy a computer for her to barely surf the web.
no, macs are not designed for *every *user, i'd like to meet a hardcore gamer that plays on a mac. there are not even enough buttons on the mouse. 



tlarkin said:


> *Macbooks are actually the number 1 sold laptop to college students.*  Maybe your average college student wants a computer to work with their iPhone, iPod, has iTunes, and want the ability to do anything else with their computer.   Apple has an ever growing market share and has been growing steadily since 2006 when they switched to Intel.  In fact their market share is growing in business so much Autodesk finally released a native Mac version of Auto CAD.   Which was never heard of because Autodesk never thought it would be worth it since there were no Macs in businesses that needed it.  I think in the next 5 to 10 years you will see lots of businesses go 50/50 or even full on Mac.



i seriously doubt this. statistical analysis aside, in every class i've been in the past three years, i've seen more Dells, Hps and netbooks than macs. but then again, if i dropped a K on a laptop, i would probably keep it at home under lock and key. 



tlarkin said:


> You are construing my words a bit incorrectly here.   I never said that anyone and everyone needed to know that to use a computer, but if you want to give an in-depth analysis oh why 1 platform is better than the other, you should probably at least understand the fundamentals of how a computer works.  For example, I like to play Starcraft II and go to their forums.  They had a Mac versus PC thread over there and I ended up posting on it because people were just saying flat-out wrong information.  These were coming from people who claimed they knew what they were talking about, but were 100% wrong.   That is what I am saying.  If you are going to make such opinions, at least know the basics of how a computer works on a fundamental level before you do so.



it reads like what you're saying is that for someone to make an informed decision on whether to use a mac or PC, they must know what these things are, and then they will see that a mac is superior. that's not going to happen.


----------



## tlarkin

zombine210 said:


> i don't know about anybody else's grandma, but mine doesn't have $1000 to buy a computer for her to barely surf the web.
> no, macs are not designed for *every *user, i'd like to meet a hardcore gamer that plays on a mac. there are not even enough buttons on the mouse.



Macs have games, steam just ported over, Blizzard ports every game, id software ports every game, EA is starting to publish more games for Macs, however, it has yet to reach the apex of the PC market.  Also, Mac mice have two buttons, but guess what, you can use any third party mouse as well.  I use logitec mice on my Macs most of the time.   Your point is moot.  Plus the Mac mini costs $500, so the cheapest Mac is not $1000.





> i seriously doubt this. statistical analysis aside, in every class i've been in the past three years, i've seen more Dells, Hps and netbooks than macs. but then again, if i dropped a K on a laptop, i would probably keep it at home under lock and key.



So, since every class you have ever been in means that Macs aren't being used in universities?

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2007/10/05/18871/

http://www.betanews.com/joewilcox/article/Apple-has-91-of-market-for-1000-PCs-says-NPD/1248313624

http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/07/15/idc.prelim.q2.2009/

Come on man, a simple google search can show you that Apple, in almost every demographic is in the top 5 companies with computer sales.  From what I read, Dell is projected to lead the sales this quarter, so I am not saying every college uses a Mac, but the percentage has been increasing exponentially each year.



> it reads like what you're saying is that for someone to make an informed decision on whether to use a mac or PC, they must know what these things are, and then they will see that a mac is superior. that's not going to happen.



Wrong again, but this time let me spell it out for you.  If you want to make a claim that one platform sucks, and the other is superior you need to back your claim.  The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.  If you do not understand the fundamentals, then how can you even come to such a claim, thus the name of this thread implies that Apple products are inferior.

I could tell you why Windows is the worst OS out there, but it would probably fall upon deaf ears.  I also am not making any claims, but rather pointing out if you are going to make such claims at least know what you are talking about.


----------



## dave1701

Wow.  When I said hate in the thread title, I didn't really mean hate.  IMO, there's way too much hate going on here.  If I had the power to remove this thread, I would.  Everyone is entitled to their opinions, the reason I really started this thread was to "test the waters" here at computer forum, to see what people thought about them.


----------



## zombine210

tlarkin said:


> Macs have games, steam just ported over, Blizzard ports every game, id software ports every game, EA is starting to publish more games for Macs, however, it has yet to reach the apex of the PC market.  Also, Mac mice have two buttons, but guess what, you can use any third party mouse as well.  I use logitec mice on my Macs most of the time.   Your point is moot.  Plus the Mac mini costs $500, so the cheapest Mac is not $1000.



it's just barely catching up. which means that initially, mac was not targeting the gamer community. hence, not designed for every user. and i seriously doubt i'm going to enjoy playing battlefield BC2, Metro 2033, Mass Effect 2 on a $500 mini; the mouse thing was a joke, i know apple had to at least support usb mice.

edit: and nothing is cooler than my NES! 



tlarkin said:


> So, since every class you have ever been in means that Macs aren't being used in universities?
> 
> http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2007/10/05/18871/
> 
> http://www.betanews.com/joewilcox/article/Apple-has-91-of-market-for-1000-PCs-says-NPD/1248313624
> 
> http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/07/15/idc.prelim.q2.2009/
> 
> Come on man, a simple google search can show you that Apple, in almost every demographic is in the top 5 companies with computer sales.  From what I read, Dell is projected to lead the sales this quarter, so I am not saying every college uses a Mac, but the percentage has been increasing exponentially each year.



well of course! i didn't say they weren't up there in sales, or that nobody at my campus uses them. but you said it was #1 for college students. back that one up! 



tlarkin said:


> Wrong again, but this time let me spell it out for you.  If you want to make a claim that one platform sucks, and the other is superior you need to back your claim.  The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.  If you do not understand the fundamentals, then how can you even come to such a claim, thus the name of this thread implies that Apple products are inferior.
> 
> I could tell you why Windows is the worst OS out there, but it would probably fall upon deaf ears.  I also am not making any claims, but rather pointing out if you are going to make such claims at least know what you are talking about.



this thread is not about why apple is inferior. it's simply about what makes it inefficient. and why we hate it. well... they. i couldn't care less. in fact, if i had a couple grand burning a hole in my pocket, and was the creative hippie type, i'd probably use one too.

edit: or if you want to send one my way, i could try it out for a month, no charge.


----------



## tlarkin

zombine210 said:


> it's just barely catching up. which means that initially, mac was not targeting the gamer community. hence, not designed for every user. and i seriously doubt i'm going to enjoy playing battlefield BC2, Metro 2033, Mass Effect 2 on a $500 mini; the mouse thing was a joke, i know apple had to at least support usb mice.
> 
> edit: and nothing is cooler than my NES!



I doubt you would like playing those games on any computer that costs $500 or less.



well of course! i didn't say they weren't up there in sales, or that nobody at my campus uses them. but you said it was #1 for college students. back that one up! 





> this thread is not about why apple is inferior. it's simply about what makes it inefficient. and why we hate it. well... they. i couldn't care less. in fact, if i had a couple grand burning a hole in my pocket, and was the creative hippie type, i'd probably use one too.
> 
> edit: or if you want to send one my way, i could try it out for a month, no charge.



I would have to say inefficient and inferior go hand in hand.  Also, creative hippie types aren't the user base of Macs.  I use a Mac and I am neither a hippie nor do I work in the art industry.  In fact I hate jam bands.   Your unilateral narrow scope of what a Mac is exact proof that threads like these are ridiculous.  You don't even know the first thing about them and are calling them inefficient.

Educate yourself to back up your claims then come back and speak your opinion.


----------



## zombine210

tlarkin said:


> I would have to say inefficient and inferior go hand in hand.  Also, creative hippie types aren't the user base of Macs.  I use a Mac and I am neither a hippie nor do I work in the art industry.  In fact I hate jam bands.   Your unilateral narrow scope of what a Mac is exact proof that threads like these are ridiculous.  You don't even know the first thing about them and are calling them inefficient.
> 
> Educate yourself to back up your claims then come back and speak your opinion.



really? mac could be best machine ever invented and it could run on pixie dust, but if it costs too much or has too many bells and whistles that i would never use that would make it inefficient to *me*. doesn't mean it's inferior. you telling me to educate myself, and you can't distinguish two words from one another?

i obviously struck a nerve with you. i'm sorry. yes, this thread is dumb and maybe stupid. but i think it's necessary. every community needs a little humor to burn off stress, which is why i think this thread was created. today it's apple, tomorrow it will be oranges. mac could be the anti-christ for all we know.


----------



## tlarkin

zombine210 said:


> really? mac could be best machine ever invented and it could run on pixie dust, but if it costs too much or has too many bells and whistles that i would never use that would make it inefficient to *me*. doesn't mean it's inferior. you telling me to educate myself, and you can't distinguish two words from one another?
> 
> i obviously struck a nerve with you. i'm sorry. yes, this thread is dumb and maybe stupid. but i think it's necessary. every community needs a little humor to burn off stress, which is why i think this thread was created. today it's apple, tomorrow it will be oranges. mac could be the anti-christ for all we know.




I am not mad, nor did you strike a nerve.  Inefficient implies inferior, look up the word efficient.  What you probably mean to say is that it is not practical for you.


----------



## lucasbytegenius

I can just see the lightsabers flashing back and forth with the last several posts


----------



## Thanatos

yeah.


----------



## iGeekOFComedy

Whoever made this thread was just a PC Fanboy to begin with, look does it really matter which computer we use, I mean we all prefer different types, I just prefer computers that when you press the button doesn't show a white _ by a black screen straight away.


----------



## dave1701

tlarkin said:


> I am not mad, nor did you strike a nerve.  Inefficient implies inferior, look up the word efficient.  What you probably mean to say is that it is not practical for you.



Inefficient- Not achieving maximum productivity; wasting or failing to make the best use of time or resources.

Inefficient does not mean inferior, it means that he works/plays/whatever less efficiently on a mac than on a PC.  It's ineifficient to me too.  It might be inefficiant becasue I'm a bonehead, it doesn't mater, it's tell inefficient, meaning that I can achive maximum productivity on a PC.  That means that a mac would be inefficient for me.




dave1701 said:


> Wow.  When I said hate in the thread title, I didn't really mean hate.  IMO, there's way too much hate going on here.  If I had the power to remove this thread, I would.  Everyone is entitled to their opinions, the reason I really started this thread was to "test the waters" here at computer forum, to see what people thought about them.



Sorry yall about making this thread.  I wanted to see what people thought about the comparison, not start a civil war among CF.  I tend to be devil's advocate, and I like to debate, I could be a good polititian.  

I think the reason for this forum, along with solving computer problems, is discussing/debating things. I knew my rant would be contriversial becuase I was in an apple hating mood that day.  I hoped in would invoke a good discussion, one that I could learn from myself.  I don't think I need to be called stupid closedminded, call me confused or misinformed.


----------



## tremmor

Everybody is beating a dead horse with this.
On the lighter side nothing against Apple. If everybody owned one i would. 
Im with the majority. Other reason for not owning one its not the standard in industry. And if i was editing photo's and a professional in this area i would likely own one. I do but basic. Not extensive. 
cheers........


----------



## Dramen

tremmor said:
			
		

> Other reason for not owning one its not the standard in industry.



Apart from being unaffordable this is the other main reason why I don't use a mac. There isn't one to be seen at my school either so it makes more sense to use a PC.


----------



## bkribbs

^ Already said this, but that is basically all my school uses, so it makes the most sense for us to. Although I don't have an actual mac.


----------



## tlarkin

dave1701 said:


> Inefficient- Not achieving maximum productivity; wasting or failing to make the best use of time or resources.
> 
> Inefficient does not mean inferior, it means that he works/plays/whatever less efficiently on a mac than on a PC.  It's ineifficient to me too.  It might be inefficiant becasue I'm a bonehead, it doesn't mater, it's tell inefficient, meaning that I can achive maximum productivity on a PC.  That means that a mac would be inefficient for me.



If something is inefficient it is also inferior, because you are getting less efficiency.  Like I said, earlier, a more appropriate word would be perhaps not practical.   If they cannot use a Mac as efficient that is not a problem of the Mac, but a limitation of your ability to use it.   I am extremely more productive on my Macs than I am my PCs, and it is mainly just due to basic GUI features like Exposé and Spaces.  Which allows me to run 4 desktops at once, each desktop with it's own assigned applications and a nice eye-candy Window manager that allows me to easily switch between apps.   I come from a PC background and over time learned how to use Macs to their fullest potential, they are hardly inefficient.   

At best, the inefficiency is a limitation of the user, not the system.






> Sorry yall about making this thread.  I wanted to see what people thought about the comparison, not start a civil war among CF.  I tend to be devil's advocate, and I like to debate, I could be a good polititian.
> 
> I think the reason for this forum, along with solving computer problems, is discussing/debating things. I knew my rant would be contriversial becuase I was in an apple hating mood that day.  I hoped in would invoke a good discussion, one that I could learn from myself.  I don't think I need to be called stupid closedminded, call me confused or misinformed.



Your rant wasn't backed by any factual data, and I am going to assume you barely even know how to use a Mac.  Let alone understand the inner workings of one.  So, how can you even make a debate or an informed guess on why Apple sucks if you don't understand the basics of what they are?



> Apart from being unaffordable this is the other main reason why I don't use a mac. There isn't one to be seen at my school either so it makes more sense to use a PC.



If you look at the overall total cost of ownership they are actually cheaper.  Their software licensing is cheaper.  Snow Leopard was a $29 upgrade, where as Windows 7 was what, at cheapest $150 (comparing feature to feature)?  Their hardware run software more efficiently for a longer periods of time.  They are more secure (ie no viruses in the wild).  They have a way higher resell value, so when you go to cycle out your  machine it is worth more than any other PC out there.  Where as with a PC, with in 6 months it will be worth a fraction of what you paid for it, especially if you bought cheap.  Where as a 1 year old Mac can sell for up to 80% of what it was worth a year previous.

So, it may not be practical for you to go out and buy one, but when looking at the demographics on paper, you can make a pretty good argument they are worth it.


----------



## dave1701

> Your rant wasn't backed by any factual data, and I am going to assume you barely even know how to use a Mac. Let alone understand the inner workings of one. So, how can you even make a debate or an informed guess on why Apple sucks if you don't understand the basics of what they are?



What does it matter to you?  If you really want to convert me to an apple user you would nicely show me why you think apple products are superior.  How about being humble, about your knowlage about computers instead of insulting my opinions because I am less knolageable about computers than you.


----------



## tlarkin

dave1701 said:


> What does it matter to you?  If you really want to convert me to an apple user you would nicely show me why you think apple products are superior.  How about being humble, about your knowlage about computers instead of insulting my opinions because I am less knolageable about computers than you.



I do not work for Apple, nor do I own stock in them.  I could care less what you use, as I think it is a personal choice.   I am simply pointing out that if you want to hate on Apple that is fine, since it is an opinion.  However, when you want to debate pros and cons, you need to know your facts.  That is all I am saying and have ever said.   I never once made any personal attacks, just pointing out that if you want to make such claims you need to back it up.

I am willing to share any of my knowledge, what do you want to know?   All you have to do is ask.


----------



## zombine210

iPhone alarm problems persist into the workweek
http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/mobile/01/03/iphone.alarm/index.html

Y2K called, they want their glitch back


----------



## tlarkin

zombine210 said:


> iPhone alarm problems persist into the workweek
> http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/mobile/01/03/iphone.alarm/index.html
> 
> Y2K called, they want their glitch back



Y2k Never affected Macs....only computers that ran via a BIOS, and wasn't really a big deal.  The media just made a big deal out of it.

The problem only happens with alarms set to run once, where as my iPhone, which is also my alarm worked just fine after the new year.  However my alarm is a recurring alarm, set to go off every day.  

The article doesn't even explain anything, just cites some people complaining on Twitter.  That is good investigating there Lou.

/Simpsons Reference


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> Y2k Never affected Macs....only computers that ran via a BIOS, and wasn't really a big deal.  The media just made a big deal out of it.



Did it affect any computer?



tlarkin said:


> The problem only happens with alarms set to run once, where as my iPhone, which is also my alarm worked just fine after the new year.  However my alarm is a recurring alarm, set to go off every day.



While you weren't affected it did affect people I know.  One of my friends got suspended from his job at the Bus depot because it didn't wake him (not steady hours = no reoccurring alarms)

While this by no means affects me, I do question why they can't get their act together with this ridiculous bug.  This is the second time something like this has happened.


----------



## tlarkin

speedyink said:


> Did it affect any computer?



Not really that I know of.  I think maybe some small exceptions of people/businesses that hadn't upgraded their computers in over 8+ years.  So that number was probably very small.




> While you weren't affected it did affect people I know.  One of my friends got suspended from his job at the Bus depot because it didn't wake him (not steady hours = no reoccurring alarms)
> 
> While this by no means affects me, I do question why they can't get their act together with this ridiculous bug.  This is the second time something like this has happened.



I agree and Apple is making some shifts in their company.  First they discontinue their server line (which I thought was a bad move), then with 10.7 they are introducing an app store much like for the iOS devices.   Which seems like a cheese move to me, and from an enterprise standpoint an issue.   In fact, there are tons of things Apple does I just don't get, and most of it has to do with enterprise level stuff, because that is what I do.

They are expanding too, as I have had a job interview with them recently.  They are expanding in all department and iOS and OS X are getting larger, while other things are getting scaled down.  At least that is the perception I got when I interviewed with Apple.  So I could be totally wrong.   

It is clear that Apple wants to concentrate on consumer products and they want to get their product out the door and into the hands of people, and it is working.  Every day tons of iOS devices and Mac laptops/desktops walk out of Apple stores and retailers everywhere.   I think that they may be losing some focus on quality control.  The iPhone 4 has had it's share of bugs for sure, but it is also 1st generation 4G, and 1st generation their new processor and hardware.  So I expect some bugs to happen in 1st gen, however I also hold Apple up to their standards of quality control.

The bug is ridiculous, you are right.  However, if I even pried into any other platform be it computers or smart phones I would also find bugs, but the impact would be smaller because the iPhone has a pretty decent and large market share.   That is not an excuse for Apple, but simply a point of everything has bugs in it for various reasons.  Some reasons are pretty legit.  Think about developing the beta software and test hardware in a lab as best you can, and then releasing it on a nation-wide network.  There are going to be things you could not account for in your lab environment.  That is just how it is.  

I feel overall the iPhone 4 was maybe rushed and lacks the quality control Apple usually has.  Now it is up to Apple to address the issue and fix it.


----------



## patrickv

dave1701 said:


> What does it matter to you?  If you really want to convert me to an apple user you would nicely show me why you think apple products are superior.


Tlarkin is not converting anyone, he is just giving you people reasonable answers.  



dave1701 said:


> How about being humble, about your knowlage about computers instead of insulting my opinions because I am less knolageable about computers than you.


The only reason things end up as they are is because people on here are not mature. If it's an apple thread, they start bashing. You can check the very first page of this thread... 



> Originally Posted by dave1701 View Post
> Hi, I just wanted to rant about my distaste of apple products. Take their computers, say an "imac", one could buy 6 good PCs for that. These things are pushing $2000. They're not worth $2000. Their not worth nearly that much



One of the reason Jnskyliner said


> thread locked in 3... 2...


----------



## dave1701

I surrender!!


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> Not really that I know of.  I think maybe some small exceptions of people/businesses that hadn't upgraded their computers in over 8+ years.  So that number was probably very small.



Our 94 IBM on 3.1 wasn't affected..no one we heard of actually was affected, it was a big flop as for as I could tell.





tlarkin said:


> It is clear that Apple wants to concentrate on consumer products and they want to get their product out the door and into the hands of people, and it is working.  Every day tons of iOS devices and Mac laptops/desktops walk out of Apple stores and retailers everywhere.   I think that they may be losing some focus on quality control.  The iPhone 4 has had it's share of bugs for sure, but it is also 1st generation 4G, and 1st generation their new processor and hardware.  So I expect some bugs to happen in 1st gen, however I also hold Apple up to their standards of quality control.
> 
> The bug is ridiculous, you are right.  However, if I even pried into any other platform be it computers or smart phones I would also find bugs, but the impact would be smaller because the iPhone has a pretty decent and large market share.   That is not an excuse for Apple, but simply a point of everything has bugs in it for various reasons.  Some reasons are pretty legit.  Think about developing the beta software and test hardware in a lab as best you can, and then releasing it on a nation-wide network.  There are going to be things you could not account for in your lab environment.  That is just how it is.
> 
> I feel overall the iPhone 4 was maybe rushed and lacks the quality control Apple usually has.  Now it is up to Apple to address the issue and fix it.



The bug isn't iPhone 4 exclusive, my friend has a 3gs.  Though you are right, bugs exist in ever phone os.  I'm running a beta version of Gingerbread on my HTC phone right now, so I know that they are there.  What surprises me is the amount of bugs I encouter in my itouch 4g...granted i'm not at the latest OS (4.1 atm), but still it feels like a beta build sometimes.  The one consistant bug I have is large apps just wont download, or take extremely long to finish (Days).  I'm gonna update it now to see if it helps actually. 

Edit:  Wow, they sure got you by the balls... In order to update to the latest firmware I need to upgrade my itunes as well (from 10.0.1 to 10.1.1) 

Edit edit:  ACK!  After all that since this wasn't the first computer i hooked it up to I cant back my apps up onto it..grrr, now to do the whole process again on my other computer.  I love itunes..


----------



## tlarkin

Yeah the iTunes thing is annoying, and so is the Quick Time dependency on some things, however those updates are so you have the latest version of the App store really over anything else I assume.

I have a blackberry for work, and it locks on the lock screen all the time, and pressing the key combo to unlock it simply does not work and I have to cycle the power on it.  This happens about once a week and is annoying.  The apps for the blackberry suck.   The interface is so-so, however for what I use it for it does get the job done.  I use it for work email and work phone calls and nothing else.  I do not want to use my personal phone for work, so I separate the two.


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> Yeah the iTunes thing is annoying, and so is the Quick Time dependency on some things, however those updates are so you have the latest version of the App store really over anything else I assume.
> 
> I have a blackberry for work, and it locks on the lock screen all the time, and pressing the key combo to unlock it simply does not work and I have to cycle the power on it.  This happens about once a week and is annoying.  The apps for the blackberry suck.   The interface is so-so, however for what I use it for it does get the job done.  I use it for work email and work phone calls and nothing else.  I do not want to use my personal phone for work, so I separate the two.



Yeah, I hate the dependency.  I've also somehow lost all of my free space on the touch to the "other"  portion which now takes up 1.67gb (?)  God, If I could do this manually it would be so much easier...it wont back up my only paid game..I sure hope I can download it again without paying for it again 

I could have told you blackberry's suck.  I will never own one..I can't stand pretty much everything about the way they work.

Edit:  it seems to have fixed itself.  Alright, now to download a large app..


----------



## Mattu

To me, Apple seems like one of those over priced products that people are trying to make a fashion statement out of these days like Coach purses, North Face jackets, etc., so they feel like they "fit in" by owning an Apple product.


----------



## tlarkin

Mattu said:


> To me, Apple seems like one of those over priced products that people are trying to make a fashion statement out of these days like Coach purses, North Face jackets, etc., so they feel like they "fit in" by owning an Apple product.



That is just another assertion with zero facts and skewed views.  OS X runs Unix, many people use them because they like Unix and hate windows.

Many people use them because they have iPods and iPhones and want it all to just simply work together.   Some people like the idea of using a Mac.  Some people like the OS better.

To be honest the fact that Macs look nice is just the icing on the cake.   I can say the same thing about people who game.  They spend copious amounts of money on unneeded hardware (over clocking, liquid cooling, RAID arrays) and it really only gives them benchmark bragging rights.  They also do it, to be cool.

Maybe some people just do what they want regardless of whatever it is you think they are doing it for.


----------



## Mattu

tlarkin said:


> They also do it, to be cool.



Yeah I guess I was only thinking about the snobs who have an iPhone or MacBook and think they rule. I also understand that the build quality of an Apple is on average superior to that of a PC and Unix is in some respects  faster/more secure than Microsoft's NT based OSes...:good: but I just can't see doping that much $$ into a computer.


----------



## patrickv

tlarkin said:


> OS X runs Unix, many people use them because they like Unix and hate windows.
> 
> Many people use them because they have iPods and iPhones and want it all to just simply work together.   Some people like the idea of using a Mac.  Some people like the OS better.
> 
> To be honest the fact that Macs look nice is just the icing on the cake.   I can say the same thing about people who game.  They spend copious amounts of money on unneeded hardware (over clocking, liquid cooling, RAID arrays) and it really only gives them benchmark bragging rights.  They also do it, to be cool.
> 
> Maybe some people just do what they want regardless of whatever it is you think they are doing it for.



That my friend, should be a sticky !!! :good:


----------



## tlarkin

Mattu said:


> Yeah I guess I was only thinking about the snobs who have an iPhone or MacBook and think they rule. I also understand that the build quality of an Apple is on average superior to that of a PC and Unix is in some respects  faster/more secure than Microsoft's NT based OSes...:good: but I just can't see doping that much $$ into a computer.



Unix is superior than NT based OSes, that is a fact which can be proven on paper.  However, some people do not prefer to use Unix based OSes because of those reasons that make it superior.


----------



## lucasbytegenius

speedyink said:


> The bug isn't iPhone 4 exclusive, my friend has a 3gs.  Though you are right, bugs exist in ever phone os.  I'm running a beta version of Gingerbread on my HTC phone right now, so I know that they are there.  What surprises me is the amount of bugs I encouter in my itouch 4g...granted i'm not at the latest OS (4.1 atm), but still it feels like a beta build sometimes.  The one consistant bug I have is large apps just wont download, or take extremely long to finish (Days).  I'm gonna update it now to see if it helps actually.



I think I have the same bug on my iTouch 4G, however I didn't just wait for the download to finish over days and days I simply powered the thing off by holding the sleep button after waiting a half hour for an app to download. On reboot there was my app, all downloaded and ready to use.
I haven't encountered that bug yet since I updated to iOS 4.2.1, however, so maybe it was just a 4.1 bug.
I find I disagree with you about the iOS feeling like a beta build, I've had no other trouble with it besides that bug. The only thing that annoys me is Safari's lack of a download manager, and iTunes' crap. What ever happened to the days when you could just plug in your device to a USB port and browse the files? Why must we cook our CPUs just to sync our iPods? Maybe I'm out of it, as up till I got my iTouch I had been using a 7 year old Dell Axim X30 running buggy WM2003, but at least that thing had download capabilities in Opera Mini and I could browse the files on the device with a file manager I chose and change things myself to make it appear not as buggy. Now whenever there's a bug on my iTouch I have to wait for the next firmware release, which may or may not fix it, while a quick Google search would fix my Axim. 
/rant
Other than that, I have no problems with it


----------



## bkribbs

lucasbytegenius said:


> I think I have the same bug on my iTouch 4G, however I didn't just wait for the download to finish over days and days I simply powered the thing off by holding the sleep button after waiting a half hour for an app to download. On reboot there was my app, all downloaded and ready to use.
> I haven't encountered that bug yet since I updated to iOS 4.2.1, however, so maybe it was just a 4.1 bug.
> I find I disagree with you about the iOS feeling like a beta build, I've had no other trouble with it besides that bug. The only thing that annoys me is Safari's lack of a download manager, and iTunes' crap. What ever happened to the days when you could just plug in your device to a USB port and browse the files? Why must we cook our CPUs just to sync our iPods? Maybe I'm out of it, as up till I got my iTouch I had been using a 7 year old Dell Axim X30 running buggy WM2003, but at least that thing had download capabilities in Opera Mini and I could browse the files on the device with a file manager I chose and change things myself to make it appear not as buggy. Now whenever there's a bug on my iTouch I have to wait for the next firmware release, which may or may not fix it, while a quick Google search would fix my Axim.
> /rant
> Other than that, I have no problems with it



I would jailbreak your iPod, and install iFile, and Safari Download Manager. I have both, and they help a ton. Jailbreaking is not bad for your iDevice, and only really can help. If you want to, and you need assistance PM me, or make a thread and point me to it.

EDIT: Oh and the alarm bug (assuming thats the one you all were talking about) was supposed to be on all devices, if they were set for a non reoccuring time/date (such as just one day, instead of each saturday etc.)


----------



## speedyink

lucasbytegenius said:


> I think I have the same bug on my iTouch 4G, however I didn't just wait for the download to finish over days and days I simply powered the thing off by holding the sleep button after waiting a half hour for an app to download. On reboot there was my app, all downloaded and ready to use.
> I haven't encountered that bug yet since I updated to iOS 4.2.1, however, so maybe it was just a 4.1 bug.
> I find I disagree with you about the iOS feeling like a beta build, I've had no other trouble with it besides that bug. The only thing that annoys me is Safari's lack of a download manager, and iTunes' crap. What ever happened to the days when you could just plug in your device to a USB port and browse the files? Why must we cook our CPUs just to sync our iPods? Maybe I'm out of it, as up till I got my iTouch I had been using a 7 year old Dell Axim X30 running buggy WM2003, but at least that thing had download capabilities in Opera Mini and I could browse the files on the device with a file manager I chose and change things myself to make it appear not as buggy. Now whenever there's a bug on my iTouch I have to wait for the next firmware release, which may or may not fix it, while a quick Google search would fix my Axim.
> /rant
> Other than that, I have no problems with it



Yeah, 4.2.1, seems to have fixed it.  But I tried power cycling it before and it only temporarily got it going again.  I'd be rebooting the thing all day..

As for buggy that was 4.1, have yet to extensively use the new one yet.  But a lot of it was app store issues, apps disappearing, queuing app download issues, scrolling in app store sometimes resulting in unintentional 'clicks', and lots of little things that required me to reboot the device to fix, like youtube refusing to load more than 10 or so seconds into videos.


----------



## lucasbytegenius

bkribbs said:


> I would jailbreak your iPod, and install iFile, and Safari Download Manager. I have both, and they help a ton. Jailbreaking is not bad for your iDevice, and only really can help. If you want to, and you need assistance PM me, or make a thread and point me to it.
> 
> EDIT: Oh and the alarm bug (assuming thats the one you all were talking about) was supposed to be on all devices, if they were set for a non reoccuring time/date (such as just one day, instead of each saturday etc.)



I have jailbreaked my device using limera1n when I had 4.1, I just didn't find it at all interesting. Maybe I should give it a more in-depth try again, what you're talking about is appealing.
I'm just a little skittish about discussing it here because of the no-hacking-discussions rules set in place here.
But I'll PM you my email address, we can discuss it that way


----------



## tlarkin

lucasbytegenius said:


> I have jailbreaked my device using limera1n when I had 4.1, I just didn't find it at all interesting. Maybe I should give it a more in-depth try again, what you're talking about is appealing.
> I'm just a little skittish about discussing it here because of the no-hacking-discussions rules set in place here.
> But I'll PM you my email address, we can discuss it that way



Use iPwn or something that has the word pwn in it and get the Cydia package manager.  That is what I did, it is the best way to jail break your phone.

Just googled it, it is called Pwnage

http://www.blogsdna.com/5185/downlo...break-iphone-3g3gs-3-1-2-ipod-touch-3-1-2.htm


----------



## bkribbs

lucasbytegenius said:


> I have jailbreaked my device using limera1n when I had 4.1, I just didn't find it at all interesting. Maybe I should give it a more in-depth try again, what you're talking about is appealing.
> I'm just a little skittish about discussing it here because of the no-hacking-discussions rules set in place here.
> But I'll PM you my email address, we can discuss it that way



I use it to really unlock the possibilites. And it is allowed on here, if you read the rules, I believe it is stated, but I discussed it with a mod, and it is fine, Create a thread or PM. (It's fine, because there was a court case that declared it legal.)



tlarkin said:


> Use iPwn or something that has the word pwn in it and get the Cydia package manager.  That is what I did, it is the best way to jail break your phone.
> 
> Just googled it, it is called Pwnage
> 
> http://www.blogsdna.com/5185/downlo...break-iphone-3g3gs-3-1-2-ipod-touch-3-1-2.htm



No, I wouldn't just search for iPwn or anything. If you want to give me the device gen and fw, I can point you to the easiest way, IMO. 

EDIT: Although I have never tried it, so it could be better, but jailbreaking with like limera1n or redsn0w is my favorite way. And Pwnage is only for certain devices I think. By looking at the url, it appears to be only for devices on 3.1.2, so it is outdated.


----------



## tlarkin

My iphone is old, but the Cydia package manager is really sweet.   I cannot run anything above iOS 3.0 on my phone, I got a first gen.


----------



## Shlouski

lol you need to watch this, the apple iRack: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw2nkoGLhrE


----------



## lucasbytegenius

speedyink said:


> Yeah, 4.2.1, seems to have fixed it.  But I tried power cycling it before and it only temporarily got it going again.  I'd be rebooting the thing all day..
> 
> As for buggy that was 4.1, have yet to extensively use the new one yet.  But a lot of it was app store issues, apps disappearing, queuing app download issues, scrolling in app store sometimes resulting in unintentional 'clicks', and lots of little things that required me to reboot the device to fix, like youtube refusing to load more than 10 or so seconds into videos.



The thing they haven't fixed in the App Store that bothered me the most is how it loses your place in a long list of apps after you've chosen to install one and then open the App Store again.




tlarkin said:


> Use iPwn or something that has the word pwn in it and get the Cydia package manager.  That is what I did, it is the best way to jail break your phone.
> 
> Just googled it, it is called Pwnage
> 
> http://www.blogsdna.com/5185/downlo...break-iphone-3g3gs-3-1-2-ipod-touch-3-1-2.htm


Thanks, man, I'll have to try it some time. limera1n did install Cydia, but my cousin told me I just wasn't using enough package sources in it.
Also, what about www.jailbreakme.com? Is that any good? It's supposed to jailbreak your iDevice by visiting the web page on it and sliding a bar. Freuifrei.x recommended that one.
EDIT: Oh I see it only supports 4.0.1. NVM.
EDIT2: nvm, tlarkin. I have the iTouch 4G with iOS 4.2.1, PwnageTool supports the 3G/GS family and iOS 3.x.x.


----------



## TrainTrackHack

Curious.

What would be the best place to buy a macbook in Australia? Best as in, well, you know, reasonably cheap and reliable...


----------



## mep916

bkribbs said:


> I use it to really unlock the possibilites. And it is allowed on here, if you read the rules, I believe it is stated, but I discussed it with a mod, and it is fine, Create a thread or PM. (It's fine, because there was a court case that declared it legal.)



due to a DMCA exemption, it's legal to jailbreak a mobile device, so we allow that to be discussed here.


----------



## bkribbs

tlarkin said:


> My iphone is old, but the Cydia package manager is really sweet.   I cannot run anything above iOS 3.0 on my phone, I got a first gen.



Yeah it's great.



lucasbytegenius said:


> The thing they haven't fixed in the App Store that bothered me the most is how it loses your place in a long list of apps after you've chosen to install one and then open the App Store again.
> 
> Thanks, man, I'll have to try it some time. limera1n did install Cydia, but my cousin told me I just wasn't using enough package sources in it.
> Also, what about www.jailbreakme.com? Is that any good? It's supposed to jailbreak your iDevice by visiting the web page on it and sliding a bar. Freuifrei.x recommended that one.
> EDIT: Oh I see it only supports 4.0.1. NVM.
> EDIT2: nvm, tlarkin. I have the iTouch 4G with iOS 4.2.1, PwnageTool supports the 3G/GS family and iOS 3.x.x.



Use Redsnow, which the latest version can be found here. But right now it is tethered, meaning if you turn your iPod all the way off, you have to hook it up to your computer to turn it back on. For me, its ok, because I just don't turn it off/let it die. But if you want to do it, message me/ start a thread, because I don't want to take this thread off topic.

Oh, and soon there will be a untethered jailbreak meaning that you won't have to worry about turning it off.


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## lucasbytegenius

bkribbs said:


> Yeah it's great.
> 
> 
> 
> Use Redsnow, which the latest version can be found here. But right now it is tethered, meaning if you turn your iPod all the way off, you have to hook it up to your computer to turn it back on. For me, its ok, because I just don't turn it off/let it die. But if you want to do it, message me/ start a thread, because I don't want to take this thread off topic.
> 
> Oh, and soon there will be a untethered jailbreak meaning that you won't have to worry about turning it off.


Ok, thanks man. Do you know when the untethered version will come out?


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## zombine210

emo snobs with money to throw away like these piss me off.

[yt]oKQGZtpysbQ[/yt]


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## bkribbs

lucasbytegenius said:


> Ok, thanks man. Do you know when the untethered version will come out?



When they are ready. There is no date, but it should be soon, as they are releasing betas, at least for your device. I won't get it until the final, but it will be within the next couple of weeks I would think.


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## Russ88765

[yt]9BnLbv6QYcA[/yt]


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## lucasbytegenius

Russ88765 said:


> [yt]9BnLbv6QYcA[/yt]



rofl :good:
I WANT ONE!!


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## Okedokey

lucasbytegenius said:


> rofl :good:
> I WANT ONE!!



That wheel will not take on.  Can you imagine typing an essay with that wheel!  Lol.


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## lucasbytegenius

bigfellla said:


> That wheel will not take on.  Can you imagine typing an essay with that wheel!  Lol.



I know, right? But I really do have the $2600 buried in the yard somewhere, need to go dig 20 feet down and go buy it 
You'd think a wheel would be cheaper...


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## Okedokey

lucasbytegenius said:


> I know, right? But I really do have the $2600 buried in the yard somewhere, need to go dig 20 feet down and go buy it
> You'd think a wheel would be cheaper...



Whats your address?


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## lucasbytegenius

bigfellla said:


> Whats your address?



1 Infinite Loop
 Cupertino, CA 95014

Yeah I hang out back and mug employees with a spoon and steal their belongings, then bury the proceeds. Not a bad career money-wise


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## Human_Warrior

Russ88765 said:


> [yt]9BnLbv6QYcA[/yt]



LOL this video is awesome. A very well thought out troll video. it adresses all the things i hate about Apple as a company 

I love my macbook pro but lets be honest Apple as a company is focused on the average user and most on this Forum hate it because of that. Its a stable machine for everyday use and smoother adobe program function. If prices went down on macs and they made their machines more upgradeable they'd be LEAGUES more successful. Not saying they arent successful now, they just breed a community of people to hate them woth the way they present themselves. And on another note there should be a Dell bashing thread also


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## Mark4_4

LOL that would be crap instead of a keyboard


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## tlarkin

Human_Warrior said:


> LOL this video is awesome. A very well thought out troll video. it adresses all the things i hate about Apple as a company
> 
> I love my macbook pro but lets be honest Apple as a company is focused on the average user and most on this Forum hate it because of that. Its a stable machine for everyday use and smoother adobe program function. If prices went down on macs and they made their machines more upgradeable they'd be LEAGUES more successful. Not saying they arent successful now, they just breed a community of people to hate them woth the way they present themselves. And on another note there should be a Dell bashing thread also



Well, yeah, The Onion is pretty damn good at trolling, after all they are professionals!  

As for Macs not being upgrade able and too expensive, again you are just not quite understanding their business model.  My 4 year old Macbook Pro laptop is still blazing fast and runs the current OS with no problems.   How many 4 year old laptops run Windows 7 blazing fast?   It probably has another good 2 to 3 years out if it as well.


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## Human_Warrior

tlarkin said:


> Well, yeah, The Onion is pretty damn good at trolling, after all they are professionals!
> 
> As for Macs not being upgrade able and too expensive, again you are just not quite understanding their business model.  My 4 year old Macbook Pro laptop is still blazing fast and runs the current OS with no problems.   How many 4 year old laptops run Windows 7 blazing fast?   It probably has another good 2 to 3 years out if it as well.



Oh trust me i know these things are made quality to almost every detail, my Macbook Pro is amazing. I love almost everything about it, but i have to recognize that Macs dont really look into the needs of Gamers or hobbiests. But to be honest they dont have to. the average consumer just wants something easy to use for web browsing, basic photo-editing, and the occasional flash game. Then there are musicians, graphic design artists, and people in advertising. 

And on the price issue i feel like theyre priced great for the time and detail put into their machines id pay a few hundred more for some products, my laptop included.

Point is i understand both sides, but if apple made all games compatible with OSX and made it easier to upgrade an iMac id never choose another company for Pre-mades


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## tlarkin

yeah well if developers actually developed in Open GL instead of Direct X you would see games getting ported to OS X and Linux a lot easier.  Plus I am sure there is a market of hard core gamers and hobbyists that would switch to Linux from Windows if they could run their games on it.  After all, Linux uses less resources to run, which means more resources to apply towards your gaming and the OS is free which means more money to buy more games.


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## Human_Warrior

tlarkin said:


> yeah well if developers actually developed in Open GL instead of Direct X you would see games getting ported to OS X and Linux a lot easier.  Plus I am sure there is a market of hard core gamers and hobbyists that would switch to Linux from Windows if they could run their games on it.  After all, Linux uses less resources to run, which means more resources to apply towards your gaming and the OS is free which means more money to buy more games.



Thats a great point, ive tried linux once.....once haha. but my friend had it set up exactly like a mac, well to the extent you can. i was actually suprised to find out it was ubuntu when i was on it


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## salvage-this

Human_Warrior said:


> Thats a great point, ive tried linux once.....once haha. but my friend had it set up exactly like a mac, well to the extent you can. i was actually suprised to find out it was ubuntu when i was on it



That is how I have my Ubuntu laptop setup.  I't funny how many people how I got Mac to run on it.


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## macguy2

You need to compare Apples to Apples!  Pardon the pun.  But there have been times when if you compare the exact same specs between an iMac and a Dell desktop the price is competitive.  This is especially true after an Apple update, not 6 months down the road. 
Mac OSX is not crap.  It is a good OS built on Unix.  It's stable and elegant.  The average computer user does not care about over clocking or that much about extra expansion.  What matters is that the computer works and Macs work well because the hardware and software are well integrated.


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## voyagerfan99

Thank you for bumping a year and a half old thread Macguy


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## Punk

The only apple thing I have is the Ipod classic (160go). Why? Because I use itunes for my music library. As for any other product, it is way overpriced. Apple is like a sect seriously. The only innovation they make is in design...

Oh yeah and I can't stand Apple now...


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## DMGrier

macguy2 said:


> You need to compare Apples to Apples!  Pardon the pun.  But there have been times when if you compare the exact same specs between an iMac and a Dell desktop the price is competitive.  This is especially true after an Apple update, not 6 months down the road.
> Mac OSX is not crap.  It is a good OS built on Unix.  It's stable and elegant.  The average computer user does not care about over clocking or that much about extra expansion.  What matters is that the computer works and Macs work well because the hardware and software are well integrated.



As much as I hate responding to old threads I must say that when I had my Macbook Pro I found the thing to be a pain. Plus who cares if it is Unix, you can take a Unix or Linux Kernel and build a OS on it and still mess it all up. Linux is highly stable and secure and I have watch distributions go and build a highly unstable OS out of it.  I have a buddy who is a huge apple person and when I told him how much I did not care for OSX Lion his response was "yeah not one of the better releases, you would feel differently if you started with Leopard". I honestly feel that now Mr. Jobs is gone that the company will go from caring to making a buck which is already being seen with Apple working on a smaller ipad and losing there green certification which would have never happened if Steve Jobs was still alive.

You like Apple and I understand that but lets see how apple performs without Mr. Jobs, don't forget he brought the company to success, when he left they almost went under and then he came back and now that he is gone again we will see how they do.


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## lucasbytegenius

oh crap who the hell bumped this, dang it. This is almost as bad as the religion thread.


----------



## SEO For Hire

Ipad is nothing but an expensive tablet with a mirror on its backside.


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## Geoff

SEO For Hire said:


> Ipad is nothing but an expensive tablet with a mirror on its backside.


lolwat?


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## lucasbytegenius

SEO For Hire said:


> Ipad is nothing but an expensive tablet with a mirror on its backside.


SEO is nothing but a fictional term for making love to Google while using a mirror and standing on the roof.

>close enough


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## Thanatos

Why, Apple, can't I just click and drag some pictures over to my phone? Why? Huh? Because you think 'syncing' them is 'better'? Yeah? Well, screw you, Apple, AND the horse you rode in on.


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## lucasbytegenius

Thanatos said:


> Why, Apple, can't I just click and drag some pictures over to my phone? Why? Huh? Because you think 'syncing' them is 'better'? Yeah? Well, screw you, Apple, AND the horse you rode in on.


Ok yeah I have to agree that's pretty bad. I have the iCloud control panel installed so I usually put them in the Photo Stream upload folder.


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## newcomputer20

Just came on here to say I dislike apple. That is all.


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## Geoff

newcomputer20 said:


> Just came on here to say I dislike apple. That is all.


You are my new favorite person.


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## lucasbytegenius

WRXGuy1 said:


> You are my new favorite person.



Says the guy with the MacBook Pro.


----------

