# Finally going for a custom loop



## salvage-this

Hey everyone.  I have been reading a lot of guides on liquid systems and I want to make the jump to a full custom loop.  I'll probably take on the project in a few months when I get my tax return back.  For now I want to get some opinions on what to use as well as how to set it up.  

As of now here are the parts that I am pretty set on. 

CPU - Apogee HD

Reservoir - MCRES Micro Rev2 Reservoir

I want a triple 120mm mounted in the top of the 800D with maybe another 120/140 in back.  I would use my 3 of my existing Scythe Gentile Typhoon fans in a pull config for the triple 120 rad in the top and some other fan in back whenever I decide on a size.  

For now I can't get a full cover block for my 560TI since I have the Twin Frozr 2 design.  So I haven't decided if I want to run that on air till I go for a GPU upgrade or if I want to try to use a universal GPU block and put smaller heat spreaders on the VRAM and VRMs.  

I have no idea what pump to use so a bit of help there would be much appreciated 

Right now I am fairly comfortable with spending 250-300 on this.  It's something that I have wanted to do for a long time now.  

Just some general questions on this...

1.  When building a new system, can you transfer most of the parts over to the new build?  I understand that there can be compatibility issues but pump, res, rads, tubing?  Any problems with degradation in the hardware that would make it necessary to replace when switching to a new loop?

2.  Is there any regular maintenance that needs to be done?  I have heard about bleeding the system?  

3.  What are the key points that I should be looking for when choosing radiators?  Benefits of a thick/ thin rad or having push pull vs. noise.  

4.  What size tubing would be good for this system?  1/2 ID 3/4 OD ok for normal use?

Thanks for reading and any help you can give.


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## Virssagòn

You're sure about that? I think the h100 is cooling your cpu pretty good. a full loop will not give that much better cooling.
For the graphics card, I read that the twin frozr is decent cooling too...
Or is it because of the noise?

Anyway, a custom loop is awesome. 1 computer fully cooled by one watersucking thing


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## salvage-this

The H100 is a great cooler.  It's just that I have always wanted to move over to a full loop.  Temps have a hand in it,  but it's mainly because I think that it would be a sweet project to work on.  

I'm sure I could find something worse to spend my money on


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## Virssagòn

Money doesn't seem to be a problem 
Yes, it's a interesting project. But Idk very much about it. I was planning to do it myself too. Still didn't have the time to read and have a look.
I solved the noise of my gpu to place a casefan on it xD (weird though)


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## salvage-this

The knowledge is hard to get.  Just like building a PC, the hard part is not putting it together.  It is finding all of the right parts.  As I'm sure you can see from the OP, I still have a bit to go.

For starters I looked at a few videos from Linux Tech Tips and read a few guides around forums.  The one that Machin3 wrote is a good place to start http://www.computerforum.com/206174-how-liquid-cooling-101-a.html

From there I found MartinsLiquidLab.org.  He has some really in depth looks at some of the hardware that you can put in your system.  Here are a few that I have read over

http://martinsliquidlab.org/pump-planning-guide/
http://martinsliquidlab.org/2012/01/02/distilled-water-is-the-king-of-water-cooling/
http://martinsliquidlab.org/2012/03/22/i7-3930k-cpu-swiftech-apogee-hd/

Even if you are not going to head in that direction it is an interesting read.


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## Machin3

Hey there. I like what you are trying to do here. To answer your questions: 

*1. When building a new system, can you transfer most of the parts over to the new build? I understand that there can be compatibility issues but pump, res, rads, tubing? Any problems with degradation in the hardware that would make it necessary to replace when switching to a new loop?*

You can transfer over to a new system, its not really a problem. Tubing I would replace, anytime I transfer over parts to a new case or whatever, I replace the tubing, just a preference, I've run into plasticizer problems so if I have a new loop going with existing parts I prefer fresh tubing.

*2. Is there any regular maintenance that needs to be done? I have heard about bleeding the system?* 

Maintenance is up to you how often you want to do it. About 6-8 months would be a good idea. Yout want to take the tubing, flush it through; take apart the cpu water block to clean it; dust out the radiators obviously, its stuff like that. A new supply of fluid is also a good idea. Bleeding the system is just running fluid through your tubing and system. Takes a bit of time because you want to get the air bubbles out. 

*3. What are the key points that I should be looking for when choosing radiators? Benefits of a thick/ thin rad or having push pull vs. noise. *

Thick radiators will disperse your heat better but you may want to get stronger fans to cool that down better. Slim fans are made so that you dont really see them at all. Push/Pull will obviously cool the radiator down faster but then you sacrifice noise unless you find some nice quiet fans. I recommend getting a fan controller so that you can regulate fan speed like when playing games where the heat tends to rise. 

*4. What size tubing would be good for this system? 1/2 ID 3/4 OD ok for normal use?*

1/2 ID 3/4 OD is usually what people get. Gives you a nice flow through the system and looks really good. Make sure that you have the correct fittings for the tubing.

Oh and last question you had about the pump, I would recommend a swiftech pump. Preferably the MCP655. Never hurts to have a little extra power if you do decide to run that video card block.


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## salvage-this

Hi Machin3.  Thanks for the reply.

I did more reading over the last few days and I decided on a few more parts.  I am thinking either one 360 and one 120 from Swiftech's XP line.  It seems to be optimized for 1800 RPM fans.  

http://www.swiftech.com/MCRX20-XP-RADIATOR-SERIES-1.aspx

The other option is to keep the 120 xp radiator and get something that is a bit thicker for the top 360.  I just don't know if I would need more fans or fans with a better static pressure for using them in just a pull config.  So far it looks like the slim radiator can already take away ~250w of heat.

After reading the Distilled Water is the King of Water Cooling post on MartinsLiquidLab it looks like I will be fine using distilled water and PTNuke as long as I don't have any plating in the loop.  So I am trying to make sure that none of the components that I am using state that they have plating on them.  I might have to settle on the fittings but I don't think that I will have much of a problem there.  

For now I am just planning on getting my CPU cooled and then migrating to CPU and GPU when I move to a new GPU.  Even with overvolting on the GPU for a 1GHz OC I still have temps in the mid 70's  

Thanks again for the help!  There is a lot to learn here but I want to get this right the first time.


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## Machin3

No problem. You can do a slim 360 radiator with a push/pull config and itll come out to the same thickness as a thick radiator. I actually have that going on in my setup..i think lol. And then the 120 in the rear is a good idea too. Its your choice in the end. I support both options. 

As far as coolant, I run distilled water as well, I have a silver coil popped in there and I havent had any problems yet. I've had my system for almost a year i want to say. 

If you have any other questions, Ill be around. Its hard for me to answer nowdays thanks to paramedic school but I get on once in a while. There's quite a but to learn but as soon as you get it done, it all starts to kind of click in the head lol.


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## salvage-this

Ok so here is the tentative list.  I looked over a few pumps and I think that I got one that will work well for the system. 

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/1...LGA_2011_Hardware_AMD_Ready_Apogee-HD-BK.html
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/1...e_Triple_120mm_Slim_Radiator_-_MCR320-XP.html
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/1...formance_120mm_Slim_Radiator_-_MCR120-XP.html
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/8...voir_12_ID_and_38_ID.html?tl=g30c97s165#blank
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/1...Pump_w_G14_Thread_Ports_Perfectly_Tapped.html
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/1...4-W_w_Free_Sys_Prep.html?tl=g30c99s1614#blank
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/8...Shining_BP-CPF-CC5.html?tl=g30c409s1609#blank
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/1...D_34_Tube_BP-45R2CPF-CC5.html?tl=g30c409s1611

So far I am looking at just over $400 for the setup.  Seems kinds high but I think I might be able to make it work. I know that I don't need both radiators for the 3570k but I would like this system to be able to handle a GPU whenever I toss one in.  I have been doing some planning on how to set up the loop and here are the two options that I am looking at


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## Okedokey

Don't use silver coil.


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## salvage-this

I've already decided on distilled water and PTNuke.  Any comments on the hardware?


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## Machin3

Everything looks good so far. Yes, it does tend to run a little high. I paid around $600 just for my setup.  Check out performance-pcs.com. I bought most of my stuff through them. They have sales on some of their stuff and their prices are pretty good too.


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## salvage-this

Looks like I can save quite a bit of money.  Thanks for the tip. 

So I was looking into the math behind how much cooling power wold be necessary.  So far I am looking into how much heat in watts the loop can handle.  So far I am using the PSU calculator to measure what wattage my CPU might use for OCed settings.  I am just using that wattage to compare as the equilibrium for the loop.  So as long as the loop can dissipate more heat than the processor brings into the loop I shouldn't have problems with the water constantly getting warmer on every pass through the loop.

Is that a reasonable way to look at it?  Honestly I have no idea if any of that was right at all.

EDIT:

Ok I switched to performance PCs.  I did save a bit of money but there were some things that I forgot.  So here is the final list.

CPU Swiftech Apogee HD
360 Radiator MCR320-XP
120 Radiator MCR120-XP
Reservoir Swiftech MCRES Micro Rev. 2
Pump Swiftech MCP655
Tubing Primo Chill Primo Flex ½  ID ¾ OD 10ft White
Compression Fittings Swiftech ½ ID ¾ OD Compression Fittings
45 degree elbow Swiftech 45° Swivel Elbow Lok-Seal™ Adapter - Black
Reusable clamps Reuseable Clamps - For 3/4" O.D. Tubing - Black
Fan Controller Bitfenix Recon 5 Channel Mobile Device Controlled Fan Controller
Biocide Petra's Tech PT Nuke Cu Concentrated Biocide (10mL)

With tax and shipping that comes to $457.14.   

I am not completely sold on having the fan controller.  I am very picky with how the system looks and I don't want to have a bunch of knobs on the front so I was looking to do either the NZXT Sentury 2 or the Bitfenix Recon 5.  Both seem to do about the same thing but I like the looks and the extra features of the Recon 5 a bit better.  

If I wanted to save a bit of money I can drop the 120 Radiator, fan controller and 2 compression fittings.  I would drop the price nearly $100.  If the math above is correct I could run my i5 at 1.55v 24/7 and still have ~140w of cooling overhead from the 360 radiator alone.  So what I am wondering now is would the 120 benefit the system at all since I have so much cooling performance.  Where am I going to find diminishing returns on the loop. 

Ok, just a few more questions...

The MCP655 takes the water in from the side and pumps it out the top right?  If not I need to redesign the loop.  

I checked over my parts and I think I don't have any plating in the loop that will flake off into the liquid.  Would you mind re checking my work on that?  The one that I am worried about are the compression fittings.  They are painted black.  I think they will be ok, I just would like a second opinion.  

Thanks again for all of your help.  I really do appreciate it.


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## salvage-this

Rather than editing this continually, I'll just bump it with more info...

So I found out that I was wrong with the initial calculations.  Here is another calculation that I found online.  I am still not sure if this is right either but it seems better than my way of looking at it

From http://daemonkin.hubpages.com/hub/Choosing-a-radiator-for-pc-watercooling



> ((TDP*OCF)/SF)*(VC^2/VID^2) = Overclocked Heatload
> 
> TDP = Thermal Design Power (Point). Get this with google by using "<chip name> tdp."
> 
> OCF = Overclocked Frequency in MHZ. This is how far you have overclocked to. If you have a 4ghz overclock, this entry will be 4000
> 
> SF = Stock Frequency in MHZ. This is pretty self explanatory. 2.66GHZ will be represented as 2660.
> 
> VC^2 = V Core squared. This is the V Core you have set for your overclock.
> 
> VID^2 = The stock V core setting. You can find this with google by using "<chip name> stock vcore."



So using that calculation here is what I am looking at for heat values

4.5GHz @ 1.24v = 109w
4.8GHz @ 1.42v = 152w
5.0GHz @ 1.55v = 189w

So that kind of changes my views on what is necessary since I was going off of the idea that 1.55v was going to be giving off 108w of heat at full load.


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## Machin3

Hey Salvage, took a look at your current final setup. Everything looks pretty good so far. Saved some money I see but not a whole lot. Its one of the drawbacks I guess to watercooling :/ 

To answer your questions:

1. Yes the pump sucks in water through the side and discharges it through the top. 

2. You shouldn't have any problems with flaking especially with the compression fittings even though they are painted black. I have enzotech with are also painted black and ive had no problems at all. 

As far as the fan controller, it really a matter of preference on whether you want it or not. Its nice to have so that when your playing games for example or using an application that is heavy on cpu power, its nice to be able to control the speed of the fans so that you can cool your radiators to your preference. Its hard finding something that matches and looks nice. For me it was somewhat easy, I have an 800D and I managed to find a zalman fan controller that matches the case perfectly. 

Any other questions, Im here to help.


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## salvage-this

Alright I did a lot of research on how to calculate what I would actually need for this system.  I read a lot of helpful posts but I am finding an inconsistency with the graphs that I was looking over.  

Both reviews are for the HWLabs SR1 360.  On MartinsLiquidLab the SR1 with 3 push fans at 1400RPM can remove just under 200w of heat while maintaining 10c or less change in the water temp.  On SkinneeLabs the SR1 is reported to be able to handle around 450w of heat.  I understand that there might be slight differences in the testing methods but not enough to more than double the performance.  

**I was looking over the SR1 review because it was on both websites and it seemed to have similar performance to the MCR320-XP at 1400RPM and below**

Since they are both comparing the same radiator at 10 degrees delta and at 1400RPM do you have any idea what is the real number I can trust or what might have led to the discrepancy in the two reviews?  

http://skinneelabs.com/hwlabs-sr1-360/4/
http://martinsliquidlab.org/2012/04/08/hardware-labs-sr1-360/4/

It would make sense to me that 450w would be the right value. Otherwise one of the clarkdale i7's at 4.2 and above would need a triple radiator at a bare minimum.  On my own system I had a i7 930 at 4.0 with an H60.  Clearly the H60 doesn't cool on that level.

If it is not too much trouble can I ask you what voltage you are running your i5 at and how you have your loop set up.  I just want to get a good comparison that has been running stable for a while.  

Thanks again.  You have been really helpful.


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## Okedokey

I wouldn't use an ionic biocide either.  PTNuke is CuSO4, bad idea.


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## salvage-this

Could you explain why?  Right now the two one liners that you have here are not exactly giving me a lot of faith in your opinion.  

Here is what I read about different coolants.
http://martinsliquidlab.org/2012/01/02/distilled-water-is-the-king-of-water-cooling/


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## Okedokey

salvage-this said:


> Could you explain why?  Right now the two one liners that you have here are not exactly giving me a lot of faith in your opinion.
> 
> Here is what I read about different coolants.
> http://martinsliquidlab.org/2012/01/02/distilled-water-is-the-king-of-water-cooling/



Ive written about this at length multiple times on this forum, and to be honest, im not going to go through it all again.  

But to give you a reference,



> The introduction of additional metals into the system (*silver*, etc.) or the use of* ionic algaecides (copper sulfate, etc*.) even in minor concentrations can trigger the corrosion processes.



http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...rt_Final.pdf&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13595113372035


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## Machin3

You know, in all honesty, I've had a silver coil sitting in my loop for a year now with the system I have and its absolutely fine. There's no damage to the blocks and such. And I've only cleaned the system once and it runs on almost a 24 hour basis.

I don't use special coolants but I'm also not afraid of using a coil.


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## Buzz1927

Machin3 said:


> You know, in all honesty, I've had a silver coil sitting in my loop for a year now with the system I have and its absolutely fine. There's no damage to the blocks and such. And I've only cleaned the system once and it runs on almost a 24 hour basis.
> 
> I don't use special coolants but I'm also not afraid of using a coil.


I've tried telling bigfella a similar thing in the past, don't bother, he's an "authority" on water cooling and what he says is correct 

Edit: And I've had silver in my loop for about 2 years without any problems, it was only EK that saw a problem


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## salvage-this

Thanks for the link bigfella.  I'll take a look at it and see what I think is right.  Just wondering what do you use for a coolant?  Just want to see what others are using so far I have plenty of responses that are voting for silver coil and PTNuke.


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## Okedokey

Buzz1927 said:


> I've tried telling bigfella a similar thing in the past, don't bother, he's an "authority" on water cooling and what he says is correct
> 
> Edit: And I've had silver in my loop for about 2 years without any problems, it was only EK that saw a problem



Pulled apart the blocks?  I think not.


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## salvage-this

No need to argue about it.  I am looking into it.  

I would like the answers to these questions

Bigfella, what coolant are you running?

Does anyone have any insight or an opinion to the question that I posted about in post #16. 


If I can't get that figured out I am just going to drop the loop.  No point in handing over $450 for a glorified H100 that I can customize the colors on....


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## Okedokey

salvage-this said:


> No need to argue about it.  I am looking into it.
> 
> I would like the answers to these questions
> 
> Bigfella, what coolant are you running?
> 
> Does anyone have any insight or an opinion to the question that I posted about in post #16.
> 
> 
> If I can't get that figured out I am just going to drop the loop.  No point in handing over $450 for a glorified H100 that I can customize the colors on....



Add ANY metal to a water cooling loop and eventually you will have a galvanic cell.

I use Dynalene FC, which is a non-ionic coolant.  No silver, not bs.


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## Buzz1927

bigfellla said:


> Pulled apart the blocks?  I think not.


Yes I have, looks like the day it was bought. And that link you posted is from EK, as I've already said, this problem only affected EK blocks, not sure what part of that you don't understand..


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## just a noob

bigfellla said:


> Add ANY metal to a water cooling loop and eventually you will have a galvanic cell.
> 
> I use Dynalene FC, which is a non-ionic coolant.  No silver, not bs.



that sounds like some great snake oil


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## Okedokey

just a noob said:


> that sounds like some great snake oil



Based on what?  Your extensive life experience?  

http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/1031717/1031717.pdf

About 100 other government technical reviews, google is your friend.


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## just a noob

bigfellla said:


> Based on what?  Your extensive life experience?
> 
> http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/1031717/1031717.pdf
> 
> About 100 other government technical reviews, google is your friend.



According to the msds it's just inhibited propylene glycol and water


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## Okedokey

Its nanotech, go have another look.  the inhibited bit is the important bit.


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## Buzz1927

bigfellla said:


> Based on what?  Your extensive life experience?
> 
> http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/1031717/1031717.pdf
> 
> About 100 other government technical reviews, google is your friend.


Not gonna reply to my post, then?


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## Buzz1927

bigfellla said:


> Pulled apart the blocks?  I think not.


I said, you haven't responded..


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## Okedokey

Buzz1927 said:


> I said, you haven't responded..



well done. im glad its fine for you


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## Buzz1927

bigfellla said:


> well done. im glad its fine for you


Not responding to my post says it all, mate


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## Okedokey

IVe responded several times.  Well done, great it worked for you.  But, you cannot deny the laws of chemistry and physics, nor the several references i have included, nor the alternatives to silver.


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## salvage-this

The Chemistry and Physics are right.  However what I am seeing in other threads and tests that I have been looking over is that the time that it takes for real, noticeable corrosive damage is likely to be in the range that either you would flush out the system, add new parts, switch the config of the loop, etc.  The point being that unless you are planning on having the loop for a significant amount of time, far longer than most of us that are so heavily into PCs that we cool them with water, the corrosion will be minimal.  

Martin had a loop that he just threw together with tap water and PTNuke.  18 months and it was still clear with no visible damage or degradation in the loop.  

Look at top of the line watercooling parts from 4 years ago.  Most of them would be so outdated that it would be dumb to use them in a current system.  So I understand that you want to build it the best that you can to not have any damage but you are really the only person that I have talked to that is so convinced that water is the worst thing that could possibly be used in a liquid system.  

Just FYI I am not talking about Galvanic Corrosion.  I know not to use Aluminum with the other metals.  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Anyway.  I would still like an answer to the question that I had in Post 14.  After the Chemistry rants got started I can't get anyone to tell me what they used to calculate what radiators they would need.  The loop will not be useful to me long enough to see corrosion if It does not yield good results.  So can we please look into that topic??  I'm getting pretty sick of this thread given it's current direction.


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## Okedokey

Cool.  Thats fine.  Just an uneccessary addition of metal seems silly to me.


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## salvage-this

I might use the same coolant that you use when I end up going that route.  For now I am looking into more important things.  Any help with radiator requirements and the actual math behind the loop would be greatly appreciated.


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## Okedokey

Well first you use Newton's cooling law (look up thermodynamics of liquids); to estimate the actual water temperature at each component:

Equation is a = b + (b-y)*k

Where:

a is water temp post radiator
b is water temp before raditator
y is ambient temperature
k is radiator specific constant

Component heat outputs:

GPU - 230W (factoring in overclocking and pump heat).

Average water temperature will be:

C/W * heat
= 0.07 * 230W = ~4oC above ambient.

Realistically, I would say between 4 and 10 degrees above ambient when at equilibrium. So be expecting CPU temps of around 30 - 50 oC.


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## salvage-this

Great thanks for that explanation.  I'll take a deeper look into that a bit later. 

Do you have any insight on post 16?  I did the math with the equation that I linked in post 14 and I got the same numbers that both of the reviews did.  Do you see any differences that would give off such different results?


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## Okedokey

Look, forget the maths.  There are two types of radiators, high a low flow.  If you're going for high fan speeds use low flow, if you're going for low fan speeds use high flow.

Every set up is different.  The pump pressure / water flow is actually one of the most significant factors.


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## salvage-this

That doesn't really help my situation.  

In 2 reviews the same radiator is being tested at 1.5gpm with a constant heatload.  So that is the same flow rate and wattage of heat applied to the loop.  at 1400rpm, one review says that it will take away 200w of heat and the other says that it will take away 450w.  I don't believe that difference is because the fans have different static pressures.  Not 250w different.  No way.

I'm focusing on this so much because if I want to cool CPU and GPU in a loop and remain under delta t of 10.   Either I will be fine with what I have picked out or I will need double what I picked out.  I don't want to have bad performance for a custom loop because I didn't get enough cooling for the system.  

I'm going to assume that you mean FPI rather than flow when talking about radiators.  I understand that you can have higher density (in fpi) radiators with higher static pressure fans and get better performance.  Or have double thick radiators with low FPI and slower fans for a quieter system.


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## Okedokey

Look, the best cooling will be 2 x 140mm fans so get one rad for each component.  That will keep it within 10 delta.

If you want to work it out properly, tell me the C/W of the rads.


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## Buzz1927

bigfellla said:


> IVe responded several times.


Responded but not answered the question. I've pulled the blocks apart and they're all fine, HOWEVER, they're not EK blocks (which your whole argument is based on).


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## Okedokey

Buzz1927 said:


> Responded but not answered the question. I've pulled the blocks apart and they're all fine, HOWEVER, they're not EK blocks (which your whole argument is based on).



No, you made the EK comment not me.  Seconldy the EK issue had nothing to do with corrosion from the coolant.

I made the comment about how silver is completely uncessary and can only do harm from a corrosion perspective.  You may currently be fine, yet we're only taking your word for it, no photos?

I have also backed it up with quite a lot of evidence and counter evidence.  

Just because its 'what people do' doesn't make it logical.

Almost all non-ionic coolants are also biocides thus the silver debate is pointless.  It can ONLY increase the chance of galvanic corrosion and isn't required for biocidal properties.

But, i think this topic is going off course.  Hes looking for info regarding the size of rads required.  He can make up his own mind about the rest.


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## Buzz1927

bigfellla said:


> No, you made the EK comment not me.  Seconldy the EK issue had nothing to do with corrosion from the coolant.
> 
> I made the comment about how silver is completely uncessary and can only do harm from a corrosion perspective.  You may currently be fine, yet we're only taking your word for it, no photos?
> 
> I have also backed it up with quite a lot of evidence and counter evidence.
> 
> Just because its 'what people do' doesn't make it logical.
> 
> Almost all non-ionic coolants are also biocides thus the silver debate is pointless.  It can ONLY increase the chance of galvanic corrosion and isn't required for biocidal properties.
> 
> But, i think this topic is going off course.  Hes looking for info regarding the size of rads required.  He can make up his own mind about the rest.


Very funny, everything you quoted has been from EK, why don't you start a "bigfella is talking out of his arse" thread? Would be quite popular, I think..


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## Aastii

bigfellla said:


> Look, the best cooling will be 2 x 140mm fans so get one rad for each component.  That will keep it within 10 delta.
> 
> If you want to work it out properly, tell me the C/W of the rads.



I have actually heard differently to this. Speaking as someone not hugely clued up on water cooling, i thought the general consensus when considering rad sizes is number of components + 1, so for CPU + GPU a 360 rad rather than 240


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## salvage-this

Ok here are the graphs that I am getting confused with

First the tests from Skinnee Labs









Here is the same radiator tested on Martin's Liquid lab






The graphs for MLL:

[http://martinsliquidlab.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/radthermalbarcharts5.png?w=614&h=2277

Same radiator, same fan speed, same flow rate.  Drastically different C/Ws.

Hopefully that will finally illustrate why this is frustrating to me and why I can't drop the math portion.


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## Okedokey

Aastii said:


> I have actually heard differently to this. Speaking as someone not hugely clued up on water cooling, i thought the general consensus when considering rad sizes is number of components + 1, so for CPU + GPU a 360 rad rather than 240



Yeah thats pretty true but for his case and his requirements of delta 10oC, i would suggest 2 x 360mm rads (what i meant by 2 x 140mm x 2).

At salvage-this, yes those calcs look pretty similar to my assumptions of C/W 0.07 (ideal) with a coefficient of 3 (3 - 10oC delta).  So yeah, I would go with 1 360 rad per component if you want 10oC delta or less.  

You can always try one rad, and if that doesn't work, the D5 Lang pump should be able to handle 2 later if you desire/need it.

If it were me, I would make one loop with CPU and GPU with 360 Rad if possible and go from there.  All the maths in the world will only get you so far.  You need to build it and then see.


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## Okedokey

http://www.computerforum.com/220495-gtx-670-corsair-ax750-various-watercooling-parts.html


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## Symbol

wtf? im in a computer forum right?


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## salvage-this

^Yes.

@Bigfella.  Yeah it looks like I will have to just have to try it and see.  Too bad I'll need to get a temp sensor for my res.  I just want to know how it will really work out. 

Originally I was going to use Swiftech's XP line because it was a good fit for the fans that I have.  Would I  be better off getting a thicker radiator and getting some better optimized fans for high FPI rads?  Even though this case is huge it does not have the most area for watercooling.  At the most could probably get away with one 360 in the top and 2 140s.  One on the back and one by the HDD cages.


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## Okedokey

You wont need a temp sensor for the rad, the system will achieve equilibrium, that means eventually everything in the loop will be the same temperature.  So just use the GPU diode.


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## Yeti

Okedokey said:
			
		

> You wont need a temp sensor for the rad, the system will achieve equilibrium, that means eventually everything in the loop will be the same temperature. So just use the GPU diode.


It won't come to thermal equilibrium (which is a fairly murky term to begin with), it will reach steady state at which point each component will have a constant  fluid entrance and exit temperature, assuming, of course, that the computer components are generating a constant amount of heat.


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## Okedokey

Yeti said:


> It won't come to thermal equilibrium (which is a fairly murky term to begin with), it will reach steady state at which point each component will have a constant  fluid entrance and exit temperature, assuming, of course, that the computer components are generating a constant amount of heat.



What bloody nonsense, a closed loop will reach thermal equilibrium. Not a murky term at all.


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## Yeti

Okedokey said:


> What bloody nonsense, a closed loop will reach thermal equilibrium. Not a murky term at all.


Please define it if you think it is such a clear term.


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## Okedokey

If an isolated system is left long enough, it will reach a state of thermal equilibrium in itself, in which its temperature will be uniform throughout, but not necessarily a state of thermodynamic equilibrium.


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## Yeti

Okedokey said:


> If an isolated system is left long enough, it will reach a state of thermal equilibrium in itself, in which its temperature will be uniform throughout, but not necessarily a state of thermodynamic equilibrium.


It is not an isolated system as there is heat being generated. Heat transfer deals with heat flows and temperature differences. As I already said each component will have its steady state (a much better term than equilibrium) entrance and exit temperature given a specific heat load.


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## Okedokey

Either way, the system will get to a 'steady state'.  Its complete overkill to worry about monitoring individual system temperatures, as eventually, they will be the same.


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## Yeti

Okedokey said:


> Either way, the system will get to a 'steady state'.  Its complete overkill to worry about monitoring individual system temperatures, as eventually, they will be the same.


Yes, 'steady state' - you can look it up in any heat transfer textbook. So to be clear, by saying that "it will have a uniform temperature throughout" and "everything in the loop will be the same temperature," are you implying that the water exiting the cpu block is the same temperature as the water exiting the radiator?


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## Yeti

salvage-this said:
			
		

> Same radiator, same fan speed, same flow rate. Drastically different C/Ws.
> 
> Hopefully that will finally illustrate why this is frustrating to me and why I can't drop the math portion.


It is most likely the the difference in fans. You can see from both tests that the fan speed, and hence the flow rate of air, drastically changes the performance in terms of the thermal resistance (C/W). The fan's Martin's Liquid Lab used are rated at 66.6 cfm, the best I can tell. The different Yate Loon fans from skinneelabs are rated from 47 to 133 cfm. Of course there are other differences - push vs pull configuration, measurement error, etc -- but I would guess the air flow rate was the biggest contribution the the difference in performance.


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## Okedokey

No, what I am saying is the temperature inside the loop of the coolant between the rad and the gpu block will get to a certain temp and remain constant at that temperature assuming the other variables remain constant.  This is true for every area of the loop, even though they might be different (slightly) temperatures.


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