# If you insist on comparing a PC to a Mac read this first



## tlarkin (May 10, 2010)

I think that debate on costs versus features and benefits is an OK debate when purchasing a computer.  However, when comparing the two you need to put them on the same level of comparison before you actually make a non biased, actual valid comparison you must think about a few things first.

1)  Are both products I am comparing similar hardware spec wise?

2)  Are they similar feature wise?

3)  Are they similar in function?  (size, weight, power consumption, etc)

4)  Calculate price differences if one lacks feature/function

5)  compare and contrast for final analysis.

Example:  I will compare a build your own custom PC to a new iMac.

iMac specs and price: 27" core i5 $1999.00
processor:  Core i5 @ 2.66Ghz
RAM:  4 gig @ 1066Mhz
Display - 27" LED IPS screen
storage:  1 TB SATA drive
Video:  Radeon 4850 512MB 
Wireless:  Airport Card 802.11 ABGN and BlueTooth 2.1 EDR
A/V - Mini display port, ie HDMI out (HD video and 7.1 audio)
Data I/O:  USB, FW2, and SD card
Optical:  Super Drive
Webcam:  built in iSight
Mac Specific features:  ambient light sensor 
Keyboard/Mouse:  Apple wireless set

Now I will try to build a comparable PC desktop off of newegg or google shopping searches

Processor: core i5 @ 2.66Ghz - $199.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115215

Motherboard (a lot to choose from, good ones always run me at least $120)  - $120 (your choice)

RAM:  4gig @ 1066 - $120
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820226101

Case (gonna say pick your own) approx $100 (give or take) Every case I have bought over the past 8 years has been over $100

Power Supply - corsair 550w - $89.99

Hard drive - so many 1TB SATAs for $80 just gonna go with that, paid $80 for my 1TB 7200 RPM Samsung HD

Video card - Radeon 4850 512MB $119.98
http://www.outletpc.com/ql4396.html
Do note the video card here has HDMI out, which is why I chose it

Display - Dell 27" LED IPS support screen - $1,099.00
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?sku=224-8284&dgc=SS&cid=27530&lid=627063&s=dhs

Wireless (ABGN WiFi card) $42
http://www.gopcshop.com/top/product_info.php?products_id=28646

BT +EDR usb adapter - $20
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ..._re=blue_tooth_adapter-_-33-242-002-_-Product

wireless keyboard/mouse (again many to choose from, the good ones are at least $100 for a combo)  $100

Web cam - $42
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826104316


Total cost of the custom built PC - $2,131.97

Now, I guess we could nix things out like cases, keyboards and mice if you are going to reuse existing stuff you have to help mitigate the cost of the custom built PC.  However, then it is no longer a valid comparison.  I am sure you could go search high and low and find the same hardware maybe a bit cheaper and help mitigate the costs that way.  That is an advantage of building your own, you can shop around.  I wasn't going to spend all day on the web searching this stuff.  However, google does allow you to search millions of sites and sort by price, which is what I did on certain things.

In the end, everything you get out of the box from an Apple is not over priced at all.  You just may not need or want certain features.  Notice I put zero compensation on the ambient light sensor for the PC.  How much would that feature cost to add?  $50?  $75?  No idea so I left it out, but you still need to consider such things when comparing a Mac to a PC.

If you don't like Macs, that is fine, but your opinion of them sucking because they are over priced is false.  I have plenty of personal beefs with Apple myself, but never get to express them on this forum because of the idiocy that people claim when comparing the products.

If you want my honest opinion, you will need at least a year of using a Mac day in and day out to get a feel for it.  Same thing goes for linux.  You can't just try either Linux or OS X and learn how it all works with in a few months.  You need to really sit down and multitask with them.

In the end it is all personal preference because you are going to use and like what you want, regardless of facts laid in front of you.

So let the flames begin!


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## Quiltface (May 10, 2010)

Good point...  however like you said if it were me buying the machine  the price would be cut drastically because for 1 I do not need a 

27" LED monitor...
BT adapter
Wireless BGN
Wireless keyboard and mouse
or a webcam

so knock off $1303
and now we have a $829... lets add $30 for a wired keyboard and mouse

$859 and i suppose i need a monitor $110 
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236031

$969   (which is actually damn tempting now that I'm looking at all this haha)

Would you be able to find a comparable MAC for that price...

(please note I am not starting a MAC vs PC war... just trying to educate myself a little more on MAC purchases)  I still don't think I will ever buy one but I get asked questions about them enough.


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## diduknowthat (May 10, 2010)

And the PC is much bigger and less sleek. I really like macs, though desktop units are not for me because I'm a gamer. I would jump on a macbook pro anyday though.


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## tlarkin (May 10, 2010)

Quiltface said:


> Good point...  however like you said if it were me buying the machine  the price would be cut drastically because for 1 I do not need a
> 
> 27" LED monitor...
> BT adapter
> ...



That is a valid point, but that doesn't make the Mac over priced and it makes it higher spec than a comparable PC.  My whole point is, if you want to compare the Mac to the PC you need to match it spec for spec and then price it out.

Obviously not everyone is going to want to drop $1k on a 27" display, but if you want something of equal quality, you will have to.

That is a down side of the Mac platform, you can't build it like that you buy the whole product.  Which is part of Apple's business model.


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## Quiltface (May 10, 2010)

I totally understand what your saying and I am not trying to prove you wrong.  I just want to know if there would be a comparable option for me, or with a mac does everything have to be "extravagant".

I totally consider myself to be a pc guy, and with good reason.  I work in the industry and 99% of the time that is what I am going to run into.  (I have yet to run into a mac, even when I worked for a TV station... the video editing computers were PC's) the problem I have is that there doesn't seem to be much out there for like lets say my dad which all he does is go on craigslist, email, watch movies, etc etc...  I think we got him a laptop for xmas that cost $500 and he loves it does everything he needs it to do and more for an affordable price.

I will never knock someone for buying a MAC unless its because they are a label wh@re...or something down those lines.


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## tlarkin (May 10, 2010)

Quiltface said:


> I totally understand what your saying and I am not trying to prove you wrong.  I just want to know if there would be a comparable option for me, or with a mac does everything have to be "extravagant".
> 
> I totally consider myself to be a pc guy, and with good reason.  I work in the industry and 99% of the time that is what I am going to run into.  (I have yet to run into a mac, even when I worked for a TV station... the video editing computers were PC's) the problem I have is that there doesn't seem to be much out there for like lets say my dad which all he does is go on craigslist, email, watch movies, etc etc...  I think we got him a laptop for xmas that cost $500 and he loves it does everything he needs it to do and more for an affordable price.
> 
> I will never knock someone for buying a MAC unless its because they are a label wh@re...or something down those lines.



Apple's entry level computers are the Mac Mini (also kind of a niche), the entry level iMac and the Macbook.  Everything else is mid to upper end.  They do not sell a barebones midtower (though I wish they would).


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## Quiltface (May 10, 2010)

The imac in your first post, or i guess any mac desktop... are those upgradeable... could I add or replace a NIC in them... a video card?  Do I have to use an apple card?


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## tlarkin (May 10, 2010)

Quiltface said:


> The imac in your first post, or i guess any mac desktop... are those upgradeable... could I add or replace a NIC in them... a video card?  Do I have to use an apple card?



Not really, they are all-in-ones which are also not really comparable to actual desktops.  You can swap out RAM, optical drive, and hard drive, everything else is built into the main logic board.

I find upgrading a moot point though.  I upgrade every 3 years and if I upgrade the processor I gotta buy a new mobo, new mobo takes new RAM.   Using more power, need a new PSU.  Upgrading is kind of pointless at times because you typically rebuild a system rather than upgrade or in some cases just out right build a new one.


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## Quiltface (May 10, 2010)

Yeah that is true, although it is nice sometimes to be able to bump up your graphics card for that new computer game that came out or easily replace a NIC or something if it were to fail... or add another one if you needed to... which most users wont need to.  And I will go ahead and agree with you before you say anything by saying you're right those things hardly ever fail but I'm sure you get my point.  

I will say that MAC has done a good job of getting the average Joe on a computer and with some degree of style.  I know a big tiff about PCs is that they are ugly... aside from the build your own cases... the manufacturer's desktops can be rather dull or ugly.  I will also agree that they have done a good job in cornering and dominating the audio/video/photo design market.  I think PC's are starting to take a stab at that but would never become commercialized because the pro's are going to stick with MAC.  However I will stand by my PC...  thank you for clearing up a few questions I had about MACs though.  

This has probably been the most civil MAC vs PC thread I've seen  haha.


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## CdnAudiophile (May 10, 2010)

Here are my concerns with apple:
1) Anything breaks you must send it to them, no fixing it yourself if you want your warranty.
2.) $170 for a three warranty when most PC parts already come with that standard. Others go 5 or even 7 years.
3.)4850 driving that many pixels is ridiculous. Good for desktop work but you could never game at it's native resolution. Plus you SOL because you cannot upgrade the graphics card to take full advantage of that screen.

The iMac you chose is put at that price point by apple for a reason. Start adding the options like the 2.8 i7, 8gb's of ram and 2 tb's space and a Custom PC will easily be in under the iMac's $2818. For that money I could go with an x58 chipset and have a serious performing computer. This is the first time in a long time that Mac's have come this close to the cost of Custom PC's. Mac Pro's start at 2499 come with only 3gb's of ram, 640gb's of space and a Geforce GT120.

Edit: I also forgot about Overclocking. Can you OC a mac? Take my processor for example. Completely stable at almost double it's speed and I definitely see the performance increase over stock and that's quite an advantage a PC has.


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## tlarkin (May 10, 2010)

THERMAL-REACTOR said:


> Here are my concerns with apple:
> 1) Anything breaks you must send it to them, no fixing it yourself if you want your warranty.



This goes for any manufacturer.  Dell, HP, etc.  On custom builds, the part manufacturer can call your failure abuse and not honor your warranty at their discretion.




> 2.) $170 for a three warranty when most PC parts already come with that standard. Others go 5 or even 7 years.



Applecare is hardly comparable.  You don't get dedicated phone support with those warranties.  Almost all of them are outsourced via email.  It also offers onsite support where any AASP can come to your home and fix your Mac at your location.  Sorry, they are selling a service, which is not standard to any part warranty.



> 3.)4850 driving that many pixels is rediculous. Good for desktop work but you could never game at it's native resolution. Plus you SOL because you cannot upgrade the graphics card to take full advatage of that screen.



Uh, for what?  Bluray play back is what 50 frames per a second?  You are being hooked into the video game industry marketing schemes.  You don't need a powerful video card to display at high resolutions.  You only need high end video cards for gaming or rendering, and even rendering can sort of be a marketing scam.



> The iMac you chose is put at that price point by apple for a reason. Start adding the options like the 2.8 i7, 8gb's of ram and 2 tb's space and a Custom PC will easily be in under the iMac's $2818. For that money I could go with an x58 chipset and have a serious performing computer. This is the first time in a long time that Mac's have come this close to the cost of Custom PC's. Mac Pro's start at 2499 come with only 3gb's of ram, 640gb's of space and a Geforce GT120.



Better yet upgrade the RAM and HD myself third party and save money.   Upgrading is moot point because whatever can be upgraded can always be done via third party parts.


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## CdnAudiophile (May 10, 2010)

tlarkin said:


> This goes for any manufacturer.  Dell, HP, etc.  On custom builds, the part manufacturer can call your failure abuse and not honor your warranty at their discretion.



I am talking more on the line if my CD-Rom dies I can just take it out and send it away while I still can use my computer unlike with a mac.




tlarkin said:


> Applecare is hardly comparable.  You don't get dedicated phone support with those warranties.  Almost all of them are outsourced via email.  It also offers onsite support where any AASP can come to your home and fix your Mac at your location.  Sorry, they are selling a service, which is not standard to any part warranty.



What if I just want warranty on my parts. I don't need any of their services so what then? It's only 1 year standard and that's terrible. Why can they only guarantee their computer for one year as standard?




tlarkin said:


> Uh, for what?  Bluray play back is what 50 frames per a second?  You are being hooked into the video game industry marketing schemes.  You don't need a powerful video card to display at high resolutions.  You only need high end video cards for gaming or rendering, and even rendering can sort of be a marketing scam.



So who is this computer marketed to then? A graphics designer does not need an i5 or i7. They could just buy a $500 computer and an IPS screen like you showed. A renderer can't use it because the GPU is not to par. An average user does not need a 27" screen and an i5's power. Blu-ray is only 1080p so why you need such a high resolution monitor if that's what your concerned about.




tlarkin said:


> Better yet upgrade the RAM and HD myself third party and save money.   Upgrading is moot point because whatever can be upgraded can always be done via third party parts.


I am not taking about upgrading but buying outright. Noone buys a iMac and changes the processor.


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## bomberboysk (May 10, 2010)

THERMAL-REACTOR said:


> I am talking more on the line if my CD-Rom dies I can just take it out and send it away while I still can use my computer unlike with a mac.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You've obviously never worked with photoshop, blender, or any type of CAD program, as they are quite resource intensive.


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## CdnAudiophile (May 10, 2010)

bomberboysk said:


> You've obviously never worked with photoshop, blender, or any type of CAD program, as they are quite resource intensive.



So you are telling me you need atleast an i5 to use those programs? I wonder what they have done all this time then. A $500 Amd quad core build is enough power for most people I know in the business. No need on wasting money on feature's a Graphics artist would ever use. Also buying the monitor seperate is such a better option as the computer can be upgraded and the monitor can move on to the next build.


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## Ramodkk (May 10, 2010)

You don't need an i5 to run those programs, but depending on what kind of work you do, generally the size of the files, you may run into problems with a weak CPU. Besides, you can't build a good quality, quad-core build w/ a professional operating system for $500.


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## Quiltface (May 11, 2010)

Quiltface said:


> This has probably been the most civil MAC vs PC thread I've seen  haha.



I spoke too soon huh?


anyway...

A guy I worked with used photoshop on a pc with a duo core and he was making billboards, it seemed to work fine.  This was probably in 2006-07


I obviously get what thermal is saying,  we like the fact that if something were to break like a CDrom or a nic or a soundcard etc, we can just go to a computer shop near by buy the part and we are up and going again; don't have to worry about shipping anything out or scheduling times for people to come to your house to plug something in etc etc...   I cant really vouch too much for any of the manufactured brand computers warranties like dell or whatever since every pc i have ever owned since i was 5 has been a home build.  I do have experience with the business side of HP and find it very good once you get past the script jockeys.


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## bomberboysk (May 11, 2010)

THERMAL-REACTOR said:


> So you are telling me you need atleast an i5 to use those programs? I wonder what they have done all this time then. A $500 Amd quad core build is enough power for most people I know in the business. No need on wasting money on feature's a Graphics artist would ever use. Also buying the monitor seperate is such a better option as the computer can be upgraded and the monitor can move on to the next build.



It depends on the size of the files that they are working on, i know someone who pretty much maxes out their i7 920 that is overclocked while using blender. 

Also, for the display most serious graphics artists would want an led backlit IPS panel, and for the price of the imac its a pretty good deal for the hardware you get(although, arguably you can buy a 23" IPS display for around $300, but with ccfl backlight).


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## CdnAudiophile (May 11, 2010)

The typical web page/pamphlet/logo designer that I deal with never could max out a 920. I am talking about the average user. Even in your friends case he went Custom because that is where the price/performance is. If an OC'd 920 is holding him back then a iMac would be a terrible downgrade.


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## salvage-this (May 11, 2010)

Just to throw in my own experiences with the design portion of this.  A friend of mine has been using his custom built computer to finish his senior design projects on Pro Engineer and Auto CAD.  While rendering the Chain link fence that he build by each link individually, he maxed out 2 Xeon processors and 12gb of ram.  I know that is a big project but if the technology is there why not use it?


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## bkribbs (May 11, 2010)

salvage-this said:


> Just to throw in my own experiences with the design portion of this.  A friend of mine has been using his custom built computer to finish his senior design projects on Pro Engineer and Auto CAD.  While rendering the Chain link fence that he build by each link individually, he maxed out 2 Xeon processors and 12gb of ram.  I know that is a big project but if the technology is there why not use it?



12 Gigs? I didn't even know any OS supported that much!


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## ganzey (May 11, 2010)

bkribbs said:


> 12 Gigs? I didn't even know any OS supported that much!



yep, 64 bit


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## StrangleHold (May 11, 2010)

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa366778(VS.85).aspx


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## JlCollins005 (May 11, 2010)

i say whatever floats your boat.

but after venturing over to apples site

look at the first system 1199 

Core 2 duo 3ghz
4gb ram
500gb hd
9400m GPU
21.5" ips display

you could build a pc for less even if its 100 dollars less you have the ability to upgrade, actually game on it and so forth. 

yes apple does have the sleek design 

and i always get a kick out of the apple commercials look pc got a virus now its slow.

Apple computers are cracked just as fast as pc's but why make a virus for them when the market is so low.

i for one will never buy a new mac, and as far as everyone i know they wont either only because a basic user will never have the need for the features of a mac.

only apple product besides my iphone i would be interested in buying is an ibook not the clamshells either, ive not found one cheap enough to suck me into buying it though, since i dont wanna dump a ton of money just to familiarize myself with the os


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## salvage-this (May 11, 2010)

^I agree with you.  Whatever works for you.  I enjoy building computers too much to buy a stock one from any company.  However I am very tempted to pick up a used macbook and install Linux on it as well as picking up oue of their 24" cinema displays.  They look so amazing!


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## bomberboysk (May 11, 2010)

THERMAL-REACTOR said:


> The typical web page/pamphlet/logo designer that I deal with never could max out a 920. I am talking about the average user. Even in your friends case he went Custom because that is where the price/performance is. If an OC'd 920 is holding him back then a iMac would be a terrible downgrade.



your missing the point, you were trying to claim an i7 is totally unnecessary. Most rendering programs are not gpu accelerated. Just rendering my simple case design in kerkythea took me over 24 hours to fully render, and i'm running a pretty overclocked c2q. Not to mention, anyone who works in photography can tell you, photoshop is a resource hog.

trust me, i'm not an apple fanboy by any means, I own a palm pre, not an iphone. I have a zune, not an ipod(well, I do own an ipod shuffle for running). I primarily use custom built pc's and build custom pc's for people. I just look objectively and feel for their purpose, that apple products are at a decent enough price point.


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## Quiltface (May 11, 2010)

cant we agree to disagree


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## Geoff (May 11, 2010)

bomberboysk said:


> your missing the point, you were trying to claim an i7 is totally unnecessary. Most rendering programs are not gpu accelerated. Just rendering my simple case design in kerkythea took me over 24 hours to fully render, and i'm running a pretty overclocked c2q. Not to mention, anyone who works in photography can tell you, photoshop is a resource hog.
> 
> trust me, i'm not an apple fanboy by any means, I own a palm pre, not an iphone. I have a zune, not an ipod(well, I do own an ipod shuffle for running). I primarily use custom built pc's and build custom pc's for people. I just look objectively and feel for their purpose, that apple products are at a decent enough price point.


You are both right.  Yes if you do CAD, video rendering, photo editing, DVD authoring, etc., it makes it much quicker if you have a fast i7.  However you do not NEED an i7, you can get by with an original Core Duo, it will just take you longer.


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## tlarkin (May 11, 2010)

Ok, let me throw in some more facts here:

1)  an optical drive is an optical drive and Apple uses Sony and Pioneer drives in their computers.  Meaning, you can toss any optical drive in a Mac out of warranty and it will work.  How do I know this?  I have done it many times.

2)  Almost all rendering and design work is for the most part processor intensive.  Things like CUDA are mostly a joke when it comes to performance boosting over a better processor.   Even the Nvidia Quadro cards don't show super leaps and bounds more performance.  Granted, the Quadros do help, but only after certain aspects and conditions of rendering.

Saying that you cannot change out the optical drive in an iMac is false.  Under warranty apple will do it for free, out of warranty you can toss any laptop optical drive in there.  Apple doesn't special design those parts, they use standard parts.  Same thing with hard drives.  Apple does however design the main logic board and you can only get that part from Apple.


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## Quiltface (May 11, 2010)

Good to know, I thought that sounded weird that an optical drive would be proprietary on an Apple.


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## tlarkin (May 11, 2010)

Quiltface said:


> Good to know, I thought that sounded weird that an optical drive would be proprietary on an Apple.



For the most part, Apple does not reinvent the wheel all that much.  They use standards like SATA, IDE, Firewire and USB.


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## salvage-this (May 11, 2010)

tlarkin said:


> Apple does however design the main logic board and you can only get that part from Apple.



Is that Apple's version of a motherboard?  If so, that is not so different.  Dell and HP do that for their towers.

On a side note if you did want a mac and you also wanted more of a chance to upgrade it would a Mac Pro be a better choice over the iMac? http://www.apple.com/macpro/


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## tlarkin (May 11, 2010)

salvage-this said:


> Is that Apple's version of a motherboard?  If so, that is not so different.  Dell and HP do that for their towers.
> 
> On a side note if you did want a mac and you also wanted more of a chance to upgrade it would a Mac Pro be a better choice over the iMac? http://www.apple.com/macpro/



Not comparable.  iMacs are for consumers with a core 2 duo or iseries Intel processor.  The Mac Pro is either single or dual Xeon processors.  Different machines, different hardware, different market.


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## JoeSamo (May 11, 2010)

tlarkin said:


> Obviously not everyone is going to want to drop $1k on a 27" display, but if you want something of equal quality, you will have to.
> 
> .



http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824009165

most expensive 27" on newegg = $449.99  + $13.19 Shipping

Acer B273HUbmidhz Black 27" 5ms HDMI Widescreen LCD Monitor 400 cd/m2 40000:1 Built-in Speakers 


Just saying =P


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## Quiltface (May 11, 2010)

Well I think the big difference was the Apple had an LED LCD screen.  O and IPS...


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## tlarkin (May 11, 2010)

JoeSamo said:


> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824009165
> 
> most expensive 27" on newegg = $449.99  + $13.19 Shipping
> 
> ...



not comparable, where is the IPS support?  I have two iMacs on my desk right now, one is 3 years old and the other is brand new.  The 22" IPS screen looks leagues and leagues better.  It has way more color depth than your normal LED back lit LCD.

Go back to what I first posted and you need to research the specs, the features, and overall cost of ownership to actually really compare a Mac to a PC.  You failed to match the specs on that monitor to what is built in on an iMac.

Those are great monitors and great prices though.  I got myself a 22" Samsung last year and I love it.


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## Cromewell (May 11, 2010)

tlarkin said:


> not comparable, where is the IPS support?  I have two iMacs on my desk right now, one is 3 years old and the other is brand new.  The 22" IPS screen looks leagues and leagues better.  It has way more color depth than your normal LED back lit LCD.
> 
> Go back to what I first posted and you need to research the specs, the features, and overall cost of ownership to actually really compare a Mac to a PC.  You failed to match the specs on that monitor to what is built in on an iMac.
> 
> Those are great monitors and great prices though.  I got myself a 22" Samsung last year and I love it.



I think now that would be my main complaint on Apple prices. You have to pay for something you don't necessarily want/need. I understand that they want everything to look a certain way, it's part of their brand but some options would be nice. Instead of the $1000 LED LCD why not offer some high quality LCDs in the $400 range.


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## tlarkin (May 11, 2010)

Cromewell said:


> I think now that would be my main complaint on Apple prices. You have to pay for something you don't necessarily want/need. I understand that they want everything to look a certain way, it's part of their brand but some options would be nice. Instead of the $1000 LED LCD why not offer some high quality LCDs in the $400 range.



This is one of my beefs with Apple as well.  However, it is part of Apple's business model.  Like I stated earlier I have two iMacs on my desk right now, one brand new aluminum 22" with a glass covered IPS screen and the other one is the older white Intel model (same size) with just a LED screen.  The IPS screen is definitely a whole league above the LED screen.  You can tell and I find myself squinting a bit more when looking at the LED because it is not as vibrant.

Does that mean I want to pay for one?  Nope, not really, but it does make the iMac not comparable to those Samsung displays linked earlier.

I wish Apple just made a prosumer mid tower core i3/i5/i7 desktop tower where users could just pick their HD and video card and slap it in.  They don't though.


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## Quiltface (May 11, 2010)

I wish apple did a lot of things that take into consideration that not all of their users are computer illiterate.  Like the Ipod, I cant stand that thing, I upgraded my moms computer not too long ago and the majority of the time took moving over her ipod/itunes crap so it would work right.  I have a sony walkman (i liked the name  it seemed very nostalgic to me) and it is a breeze, never have to do a thing to it if I change computers or whatever.


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## tlarkin (May 11, 2010)

*Total cost of ownership*

One thing to always consider when buying anything, be it a car, boat, computer, clothing, house, property, so on and so forth is the total cost of ownership.

This can consist of many different things, but to give you an idea:

1)  Initial out of pocket costs
2)  return investment
3)  labor you need to put in yourself or pay for work done
4)  resell value
5)  down time
6)  features and benefits

So basically you need to take into account everything that revolves around the product you are buying.  Now taking in comparison the Mac versus the PC in total cost of ownership the Mac shines a lot more in certain aspects.  Especially when it comes to resell value.  I sold my 5 year old G5 tower two summers ago (so it would be seven years old now) for $500 bucks.  That was about the going rate.  Show me a PC that you can resell for $500 after it is 5 years old.  You won't be able to.

So the point of upgrade-ability is kind of moot.  You can just sell your whole Mac and apply it all to a new mac and help mitigate the cost and you get a brand new machine with a full warranty every time.

When looking at overall cost of ownership you need to take everything into account.  How often will the computer crash?  Will you get down time due to malware and viruses?  If a part fails what entails for warranty replacement?  What is the down time?  Does this even apply or matter to you?  Overall cost of ownership is something that gets forgotten a lot in the world of Microsoft, but if you talk to any old beard stroking Unix admin they will tell you all about overall cost of ownership.  Smart consumers will do the same, but many people over look such mind sets.  Overall cost of ownership is for a large part based on opinion as well, as everyone has different needs and wants, but some of it can be used as facts for a basis of what something is worth.

For example, Antec is starting to piss me off personally.  My PSU died last week and I am trying to do an advance RMA and their customer service sucks, so they may lose my next purchase if they don't get their act together.  I don't want to send mine in and wait for a week, I want a new one sent to me and I will send the defective back.


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## Quiltface (May 11, 2010)

what is the cost of ownership of a pc vs a mac?


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## laznz1 (May 11, 2010)

you guys are actually still debating  this.....?

first off you need to be specific on what your comparing 

If you say PC are you meaning windows comp or linux etc 
are we including Components or just OS  

what need to be listed is pro/con of each system

Mac
Pros

Looks good 
Good at rendering 
Good at music and movies
Cons 

Has a game deficiency
Hard to upgrade components
you look like a cock using one

PC 
Pros 

Can look good 
Good at Games
Wide vairety of programs 
can do music and video editing
Cons

More known viruses


to end this thread 
*
PLEASE NOTE MAY NOT BE SUITABLE FOR EVERYONE*
One thing macs can do that PCs cant


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## tlarkin (May 11, 2010)

laznz1 said:


> you guys are actually still debating  this.....?
> 
> first off you need to be specific on what your comparing
> 
> ...



Considering a Mac can run Windows and Windows apps the points you made in bold are invalid.  Again, you are just trolling, please leave the thread, and see my posts on actually comparing the two platforms.


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## Quiltface (May 11, 2010)

Im not exactly debating... just asking questions.   MAC vs PC is like Democrats vs Republicans.... no one is right... no one is wrong.  its not like we are talking about what makes a better pet a Dog or a giraffe.


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## laznz1 (May 11, 2010)

tlarkin said:


> Considering a Mac can run Windows and Windows apps the points you made in bold are invalid.  Again, you are just trolling, please leave the thread, and see my posts on actually comparing the two platforms.



then shouldn't the cost of the windows OS be included into your cost of your mac other wise it isn't competing at all on the games front...?


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## tlarkin (May 11, 2010)

laznz1 said:


> then shouldn't the cost of the windows OS be included into your cost of your mac other wise it isn't competing at all on the games front...?



This only applies to total cost of ownership and if the user wanted to play all the games on their mac.  Gaming is really a niche market.  So, yes, if that is a deal breaker for you, then I would have to add the cost of OEM Windows to the Mac for it to compare to your custom built PC, but notice in my comparison I didn't even list OSes for either machine.  So, the added cost would be mirrored to the custom built PC I had listed earlier.


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## laznz1 (May 11, 2010)

your comparison is good but only show one small sliver of the market place if you go to cheaper desktop or more expensive ones you will find that PC are alot better price wise


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## tlarkin (May 11, 2010)

laznz1 said:


> your comparison is good but only show one small sliver of the market place if you go to cheaper desktop or more expensive ones you will find that PC are alot better price wise



It is still not a valid comparison then, and goes to the overall cost of ownership to you.  Since, to you some features may not matter, or you may be not aware of the differences, but that doesn't mean a Mac is over priced.

Like I said, people keep posting cheap (sub $500) 27" displays and try to compare it.  Unless you work on an IPS screen all day like I have on my new iMac recently you would be ignorant to the differences.  Especially if you are going back and forth.

I literally have two iMacs I am working on right now.  The new iMac is running an instaDMG compile so I am using it to browse the web while the new master image is compiling and the second imac is compiling packages for me in Casper Admin, so both are being utilized by semi intensive CPU tasks and I am working back and forth between them both.  Every single time I switch back to the LED screen I immediately miss the IPS screen.  Is this a deal breaker for me if I were to spend my own money (ie these were not machines my work bought me) then maybe I'd consider building a PC over the iMac, but I do need the Macs for work.  I never knew the different off paper until recently when I snagged up a new iMac from our storage facility when they got dropped off a few months ago.  I am just now hooking it up and using it, it sat on a bench and was a test machine for imaging for several months.  Now that the imaging testing is done I have converted it to a second work station and am now using it with work.

If you have no desire to learn or care how a computer works and just want to use it, and you prefer windows over Mac or vice versa your mind is already made up.  However, if you want to compare the two at price versus feature versus spec to spec and total cost of ownership then you need to take it all into account before making a judgment on what is over priced and what is not over priced.  This will also tell you if a Mac is for you or not.  Most people on this forum try to argue different with me, and I have been professionally using and support macs for 11 years almost now, and PCs and Windows since the early 90s (though I wasn't doing it professionally in the early 90s) and they use the most ridiculous claims with no facts.

It is a lot like democrats versus republicans, people like to leave out facts and argue opinion more than anything, and I am simply trying to use facts to compare the two.


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## laznz1 (May 11, 2010)

whats this cost of ownership you keep raving on about i have 4 computers running right now and since building them have not cost me a cent more then that price?


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## tlarkin (May 11, 2010)

laznz1 said:


> whats this cost of ownership you keep raving on about i have 4 computers running right now and since building them have not cost me a cent more then that price?



Go back and reread what I said about total cost of ownership, it is what you personally pay to own something, and it is not always in dollars and cents.  That is more of a personal opinion than it is fact and everyone will differ when they define total cost of ownership.


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## laznz1 (May 11, 2010)

tlarkin said:


> Go back and reread what I said about total cost of ownership, it is what you personally pay to own something, and it is not always in dollars and cents.  That is more of a personal opinion than it is fact and everyone will differ when they define total cost of ownership.



1) Initial out of pocket costs
2) return investment
3) labor you need to put in yourself or pay for work done
4) resell value
5) down time
6) features and benefits

whats this got to do with saying macs are better?


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## tlarkin (May 11, 2010)

laznz1 said:


> 1) Initial out of pocket costs
> 2) return investment
> 3) labor you need to put in yourself or pay for work done
> 4) resell value
> ...



Do you ever research things before you purchase them and critically think about all aspects of the total cost of ownership?  Macintosh computers have historically proven to last longer, their life is about 5 years before you got to replace them.  When 10.5 came out I was running it on a 5 year old G5 desktop.  How many 5 year old PCs can run Vista or Windows 7 and do it efficiently?  Therefore you are spending money at less intervals, thus going into the overall cost of ownership.

Then you want to sell your old mac and buy a new one, and you realize the 5 year old mac still has some resell value, you are getting more return on your investment over a PC.

Total cost of ownership is a very broad concept and it doesn't apply to those things I listed exclusively, and it can be defined many different personal ways.

I am not quite sure how much more clear I can be on this.


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## laznz1 (May 11, 2010)

Id love to see some facts on you comment saying macs last longer i personally believe its in how the computer is maintained 

secondly after having a quick look on a few online auction sites in my country and find there are bucket loads of old PC selling for $400-600 

so you can basically wipe half of your *Cost of ownership* as its equal and it is in the end how you treat your computer


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## Quiltface (May 11, 2010)

Fight!


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## laznz1 (May 11, 2010)

Quiltface said:


> Fight!



just a difference of opinion if anything no fighting here


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## Quiltface (May 11, 2010)

no i just like saying that .... makes me feel like im on the playground again.


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## laznz1 (May 11, 2010)

Quiltface said:


> no i just like saying that .... makes me feel like im on the playground again.



then contribute?


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## bomberboysk (May 11, 2010)

tlarkin said:


> not comparable, where is the IPS support?  I have two iMacs on my desk right now, one is 3 years old and the other is brand new.  The 22" IPS screen looks leagues and leagues better.  It has way more color depth than your normal LED back lit LCD.
> 
> Go back to what I first posted and you need to research the specs, the features, and overall cost of ownership to actually really compare a Mac to a PC.  You failed to match the specs on that monitor to what is built in on an iMac.
> 
> Those are great monitors and great prices though.  I got myself a 22" Samsung last year and I love it.


You can get an NEC 23" 1080p IPS display for $350(At one point with a coupon code it was available for $279)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824002524

Sadly though, its not led backlit as well.


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## tlarkin (May 11, 2010)

laznz1 said:


> Id love to see some facts on you comment saying macs last longer i personally believe its in how the computer is maintained
> 
> secondly after having a quick look on a few online auction sites in my country and find there are bucket loads of old PC selling for $400-600
> 
> so you can basically wipe half of your *Cost of ownership* as its equal and it is in the end how you treat your computer



A PC that is 5 years old sells for that much?  I am glad I live in America then.


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## laznz1 (May 11, 2010)

tlarkin said:


> A PC that is 5 years old sells for that much?  I am glad I live in America then.



but you agree it all depend on how the computer is treated rather then type


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## tlarkin (May 11, 2010)

laznz1 said:


> but you agree it all depend on how the computer is treated rather then type



No, you missed my point.  I said show me a 5 year old computer that can run Windows 7 efficiently as a 5 year old computer that runs Snow Leopard.  I was talking that Macs, historically tend to last longer with newer OS updates versus a PC with Windows.   This has always been the case, but Apple's business model has higher quality control.


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## bomberboysk (May 11, 2010)

tlarkin said:


> No, you missed my point.  I said show me a 5 year old computer that can run Windows 7 efficiently as a 5 year old computer that runs Snow Leopard.  I was talking that Macs, historically tend to last longer with newer OS updates versus a PC with Windows.   This has always been the case, but Apple's business model has higher quality control.



A 5 year old apple isnt going to run snow leopard, because powerpc support has been removed. The intel macs were introduced in 06

Your point is valid though, windows has always been more resource heavy than osx.


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## porterjw (May 12, 2010)

tlarkin said:


> If you want my honest opinion, you will need at least a year of using a Mac day in and day out to get a feel for it.  Same thing goes for linux.  You can't just try either Linux or OS X and learn how it all works with in a few months.  You need to really sit down and multitask with them.



Amen. That's what pisses me off with Distro-whores; they'll have 30 Live CD's that they used for 30 minutes each and will spout off pros/cons like they know everything about the OS.


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## Quiltface (May 12, 2010)

laznz1 said:


> then contribute?


i have... this thread took a 180... ill wait for it to take another 180 before I say anything else that is worth reading...

Ill say this  GO PC-DOS


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## porterjw (May 12, 2010)

laznz1 said:


> Id love to see some facts on you comment saying macs last longer i personally believe its in how the computer is maintained
> 
> secondly after having a quick look on a few online auction sites in my country and find there are bucket loads of old PC selling for $400-600
> 
> so you can basically wipe half of your *Cost of ownership* as its equal and it is in the end how you treat your computer



For the most part, the longevity of a system is determined by build-quality, day-to-day usage, and the environment it's placed in. Secondary factors include type of stuff it's being used for and type of OS. Windows by nature will degrade over time, prompting a slower system - it's just the way it is. The code and file systems of non-Windows machines are different, hence that's not an issue. That *could* be what he meant.

Just curious, but what country do you live in? Depending on where you are in the world has a lot to do with initial price/resale of parts/systems. Something that costs me $100 in the US might cost someone in the UK $125 (random example - I've no idea the US/UK exchange rates). Exchange rates aside, it simply might just be harder to get a specific piece of technology there, so the price goes up accordingly.

Also, you mentioned *auction* sites...that's hardly a real representation of true going-rates. For example, I frequently scour ebay for used Dell laptops for various reasons and am amazed at what some of them are listed for as 'Buy It Now'. Sorry, but an 8 year old P3 with 512 RAM and a refurbished 40 Gig HDD is *not* worth $325. Then of course you have the people who basically run scams and try to take advantage of others, hoping that the technological-ignorance of the masses will prevail and they can make a few quick bucks. Anyone with half a brain can hype up a system and make it sound awesome. Hell, give me 10 minutes, and I'll find a way to make a IIGS sound like a steal for 'only $450'!

Not trying to pick a fight here, just give examples. The Lark was specifically trying to avoid the measure-fest that always seems to follow this topic by giving *real* *specific* *logical* reasons that actually matter, rather than the customary _"My Mac is pretty! Why do people use Windows? LOL" "Shutup noobzor, your Mac is teh sucky" "No you shutup! I don't need anti-virus stuff. Down with M$ HAHAHAHAHA!" "Go away, you suck, your family sucks, your neighbors suck. I'm going to kill your dog. UR a troll. WINDOWS FOREVER!!!!!1!!one!!!eleven!!"_, and I think he did a fairly straightforward job of it


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## laznz1 (May 12, 2010)

im in NZ (the country)

and if it sells on these auction sites i suppose it is worth that much to the person who brought it


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## porterjw (May 12, 2010)

I'm willing to bet that's partly why resell value is so high - typically costs more to ship things to your part of the world, hence higher price to begin with (and again, no clue what the exchange rate is, but I speculate it may have something to do with it also). It's not necessarily a matter of 'holding the value longer' as much as it 'depreciating at the same rate, though starting from a higher initial price-point'. Either way, six-to-one, half dozen to another I suppose.

As far as 'worth that much to the person who bought it'...perhaps, but never underestimate the gullibility of computer-ignorant people, and the soullessness of those who would try and take advantage of them.


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## tlarkin (May 12, 2010)

bomberboysk said:


> A 5 year old apple isnt going to run snow leopard, because powerpc support has been removed. The intel macs were introduced in 06
> 
> Your point is valid though, windows has always been more resource heavy than osx.



OK you got me, but give me one more year and you will see first generation Intel Macs running 10.6 with no issue and they will run it smooth.  My 5 year old G5 is running (actually it may be 6 years old now) 10.5.8 with no lag at all.  In fact I am using it now because my PSU blew up in my custom built PC.  The fact is, Macs last the test of time on OS updates more so than a PC does.  My Macs have a lot longer replacement cycle with me.  I typically build a new PC every 2 to 3 years with all new parts, and I typically sell my old Mac and buy a new one every 4 to 5 years.   Overall cost over time, I spend way more money on my PCs.

This was my leading point on total cost of ownership.  I spent $1400 on my last PC rig which I built about 1.5 years ago, and a year from now I will most likely want to upgrade, which forces me to buy new RAM and motherboard to support my new processor.  I will spend more money in my lifetime building PCs than I will purchasing Macs.


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## speedyink (May 12, 2010)

Maybe it's just me, but I certainly think total cost of ownership has a lot less to do with the computer your buying and more to do with the person buying it.  

For example, if your a gamer, yes, your gonna be spending shit tons of money.  I game, but not enough to warrant buying a new video card every 6 months.  I'm still using my 2 year old $900 computer and it's still more than capable of doing every single task I do on a computer.  

Virus downtime? Please, I haven't gotten a virus in years.  In fact never had a single virus on any of the computers I currently own.  Hardware failure downtime..happens on everything.  I haven't had a single hardware issue on my pc's, my friends time capsule and macbook both screwed up within months of each other.  Others will have opposite experiences.  It's destined for any unsuspecting mac OR pc user.

Oh, and I'll just throw in my parents still use they're now 11 year old HP daily for their accounting work.


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## tlarkin (May 12, 2010)

speedyink said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I certainly think total cost of ownership has a lot less to do with the computer your buying and more to do with the person buying it.
> 
> For example, if your a gamer, yes, your gonna be spending shit tons of money.  I game, but not enough to warrant buying a new video card every 6 months.  I'm still using my 2 year old $900 computer and it's still more than capable of doing every single task I do on a computer.



Sure, and I agree with everything you have said.  Which is why I said total cost of ownership is half personal opinion, but should be based off facts or experiences.  Of course everyone's mileage may vary.  Like you stated, you quantified your total cost of ownership on a $900 build and it is good for you, but it may not be good for or the next person.



> Virus downtime? Please, I haven't gotten a virus in years.  In fact never had a single virus on any of the computers I currently own.  Hardware failure downtime..happens on everything.  I haven't had a single hardware issue on my pc's, my friends time capsule and macbook both screwed up within months of each other.  Others will have opposite experiences.  It's destined for any unsuspecting mac OR pc user.



No offense, but you always references your friends and their problems, perhaps it is user error?  As for virus threats, they are still a real huge issue with Windows boxes, regardless of virus protection or not because of kernel hooks via drivers.  Of course I can sit here all day until I am blue in the face and talk about kernel hooks but it will most likely fall on def ears.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/07/argument_switch_av_bypass/

It is just a plain fact until MS gets their shit together you are always going to have the possibility of a virus, malware, spyware, etc on Windows more so than any other OS.  They need to get rid of kernel hooks all together along with the clunky ass bloated registry.



> Oh, and I'll just throw in my parents still use they're now 11 year old HP daily for their accounting work.



It has the original HD?  I find most HDs run like ass after about 5 years of use.


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## BigSteve702 (May 12, 2010)

tlarkin said:


> OK you got me, but give me one more year and you will see first generation Intel Macs running 10.6 with no issue and they will run it smooth.  My 5 year old G5 is running (actually it may be 6 years old now) 10.5.8 with no lag at all.  In fact I am using it now because my PSU blew up in my custom built PC.  The fact is, Macs last the test of time on OS updates more so than a PC does.  My Macs have a lot longer replacement cycle with me.  I typically build a new PC every 2 to 3 years with all new parts, and I typically sell my old Mac and buy a new one every 4 to 5 years.   Overall cost over time, I spend way more money on my PCs.
> 
> This was my leading point on total cost of ownership.  I spent $1400 on my last PC rig which I built about 1.5 years ago, and a year from now I will most likely want to upgrade, which forces me to buy new RAM and motherboard to support my new processor.  I will spend more money in my lifetime building PCs than I will purchasing Macs.



we refurbished a powerbook g3 at my work, put os10 on it in the process. i think it was the newest supported... anyways.... it was slow as poop. but once everything was loaded in cache, it ran pretty zippy. are all mac coded programs just coded smaller? cause the damn thing only had 256mb ram if i can remember correctly


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## tlarkin (May 12, 2010)

BigSteve702 said:


> we refurbished a powerbook g3 at my work, put os10 on it in the process. i think it was the newest supported... anyways.... it was slow as poop. but once everything was loaded in cache, it ran pretty zippy. are all mac coded programs just coded smaller? cause the damn thing only had 256mb ram if i can remember correctly



When Apple was in shambles, and Apple brought back Steve Jobs, the first thing Jobs said is that they need to find a new OS. They shopped around for a bit but Jobs already had his sights on NeXT.  Historically speaking, all Unix OSes have had a much smaller finger print resource wise for running.  Apple kept that and Apple is big on not loading tons of legacy code to make older products compatible with the current OS.  Which is why Microsoft products run like ass.  I hate MS office, no matter what build on what system it runs so damn slow, because it has to load a crap ton of legacy support for like every version of office ever built.

Unix handles on the fly memory and resource management very well.  Much better than Windows for sure.  If you are refurbing G3 iBooks, those are easily in the 7+ years old range, and are PPC and can only run at the most 10.5.  10.5 (or Leopard) came out during the same time Vista did.


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## speedyink (May 12, 2010)

tlarkin said:


> No offense, but you always references your friends and their problems, perhaps it is user error?



In both instances it was hard drive failure.  He's quite careful with his stuff.  I'm not saying hey use crap hard drives either, I'm just saying all hardware can fail.



tlarkin said:


> It has the original HD?  I find most HDs run like ass after about 5 years of use.



Original and stock everything, including the 15gb hard drive.  Ram hasn't even been upgraded.


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## tlarkin (May 12, 2010)

speedyink said:


> In both instances it was hard drive failure.  He's quite careful with his stuff.  I'm not saying hey use crap hard drives either, I'm just saying all hardware can fail.
> 
> 
> 
> Original and stock everything, including the 15gb hard drive.  Ram hasn't even been upgraded.



Well, touche I guess


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