# What would it take to make data be completely unrecoverable?



## Captain Kirk (Aug 16, 2012)

Would any of the following cause the data on my hd be completely unrecoverable?:

1> Delete/Create Partition, and Full Format
2> Format 4 times

How many formats can be done on my hd before data becomes completely unrecoverable?


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## claptonman (Aug 16, 2012)

Reformatting it will not take the info off of it. You need to write over the used space over and over again. You can do it a couple of ways.

First way is use a utility called Boot N Nuke. You have to boot to the CD, and it will write over the hard drive with random data. You usually want to do this at least 7 times. I don't know how many times you can choose for Boot N Nuke, but it'll be enough.

Second way is if you have a drive as a secondary drive in a computer. You can just use Ccleaner. (Great program in of itself.) You can choose a disk you want to write over, and can do it 1, 7, or 35 times. 35 is overkill, but if you want to be sure...

Hope that helps/


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## larsch (Aug 16, 2012)

You seem to be asking the same questions in many different threads


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## johnb35 (Aug 16, 2012)

Captain Kirk said:


> Would any of the following cause the data on my hd be completely unrecoverable?:
> 
> 1> Delete/Create Partition, and Full Format
> 2> Format 4 times
> ...



Please refrain from creating new threads about the same issue.  All your threads could have been cut down to at least 2 threads only, basically a memory issue and HDD issue.


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## Captain Kirk (Aug 17, 2012)

I asked this question, and it wasn't answered twice, in two different threads:

"Would these programs be good enough to recover any lost data if any data was recoverable?:
Gparted Recovery Live CD
Smart Partition Recovery
Active Partition Recovery Enterprise v6"

I lost 20 Gigs of data, and used these programs above for 4 runs at 7 hours each!!!! I was not able to recover ANY data at all. I am trying to figure out how this happened and how to prevent it from happening again. So if you know what the "limitations" on data being able to be RECOVERED, then this issue is solved and the thread and this question will be done.

A problem unsolved, a question unanswered -- there is still an issue.


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## johnb35 (Aug 17, 2012)

Nothing is full proof.  Being able to recover data from a drive that has been formatted is gonna be 50/50.  Theoretically, as long as the space where the data was, wasn't written with new data then it should be recoverable.  However, there are always reasons why it can't be recovered.  

If you are worried about your data....back it up, back it up, back it up.  Thats the best instructions anyone can give you.


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## S.T.A.R.S. (Aug 17, 2012)

To make data completely unrecoverable,use KILL DISK by using a 35 passes with zeros on all HDD sectors using Gutmann method.

To make your data 100% safe and never lose anything again,buy or make your own data device with let's say 10 hard disk drives.On first 5 you will hold everything on and other 5 will simply be a copy of first 5.And make sure that the area in which you hold that device is cool and very very well protected from others.This is how I do it:







And trust me...20 GB of data which you lost is nothing compared to what I could lose lol.That is why I have this kind of protection.



Cheers!


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## larsch (Aug 18, 2012)

S.T.A.R.S. said:


> To make data completely unrecoverable,use KILL DISK by using a 35 passes with zeros on all HDD sectors using Gutmann method.



How can you guarantee that? What if the drive's firmware is infected?


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## Captain Kirk (Aug 18, 2012)

Problem solved. *It was just BAD LUCK...*

Stars,
From what Larsch is saying, which I didn't know [I too thought that a killdisk was 100% secure -- guess I was wrong], it looks like your method is only 90-99% secure. And this amount is lowered even further if you do not check the data that is going INTO the "vault". Without a security program or separating contaminated material, you could potentially infect your entire nest, all 1,000 Gigs of data that you have!!

However, despite these minimal risks, I still think that it is a clever idea in its own right. Though some people may call it "second rate".

Larsch,
When you are talking about "firmware", you are referring to the hd's, software, and anything that is connected to the device such as through a cord -- I don't think wireless connection counts, unless they have come up with something new?


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## Okedokey (Aug 18, 2012)

The only way to completely remove data is to chemically change the platter (e.g,. burn).  Magnetic changes are physical.


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## Captain Kirk (Aug 22, 2012)

PROBLEM
What are the limitations of being able to recover data on a hd, even WITH recovery programs?

SOLUTION
*1 format "can" permanently make ALL data completely unrecoverable as effectively as a killdisk!!!*

_Capain Kirk_


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## Okedokey (Aug 22, 2012)

captain kirk said:


> problem
> what are the limitations of being able to recover data on a hd, even with recovery programs?
> 
> solution
> ...



bs


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## Captain Kirk (Aug 22, 2012)

CAN DATA BE RECOVERED?

With the XP installation:
When you insert XP and it goes to the blue screen to start the setup process, it asks you what partition that you'd like to setup Windows on.
And there is also the option to "Delete Partition".

I deleted/created a partition in the XP setup, then formatted.

voyagerfan99:
"No. It's nowhere near as secure as Killdisk. It simply deletes the partition from the drive table. I'm sure if you used a more advanced recovery program you might recover something, but most of the time you're not lucky enough to."

johnb35:
"The XP install disk allows you to delete the existing partitions and format them. However, *its always possible to recover data from formatted partitions*. The only true way to wipe a drive is to use killdisk or dban."

voyagerfan99:
"Well the issue I see is you tried to recover the partition after it had already been formatted. You can only recover a partition if the partition has only been deleted and nothing on the drive has been formatted. That is your main problem."

Captain Kirk:
"Larsch, What about if you delete/create a partition AND then do the full [not quick] format, would this be enough to make any data COMPLETELY unrecoverable?"

larsch:
*"Not if you are using xp."*

johhny:
*"you can still recover the files using some recovery software applications."*

Captain Kirk:
"_I lost 20 Gigs of data_, and used 3 recovery programs for 4 runs at 7 hours each!!!! *I was not able to recover ANY data* at all."

"Would these programs be good enough to recover any lost data if any data was recoverable?:"
"Are these programs considered ADVANCED RECOVERY PROGRAMS?"

"Gparted Recovery Live CD
Smart Partition Recovery
Active Partition Recovery Enterprise v6"

johnb35:
"Nothing is full proof. *Being able to recover data from a drive that has been formatted is gonna be 50/50.* Theoretically, as long as the space where the data was, wasn't written with new data then it should be recoverable. However, there are always reasons why it can't be recovered. "

bigfellla's Reply:


> bs


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## S.T.A.R.S. (Aug 22, 2012)

You people are overreacting.If you are SOOO afraid that someone will recover your data then just melt the entire hard disk drive:


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## wolfeking (Aug 22, 2012)

If you want unrecoverable data, then just shoot the dang drive. That is 100% and can not be repaired.


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## larsch (Aug 22, 2012)

S.T.A.R.S. said:


> You people are overreacting.



Well, you were the one that posted the picture of your system. It almost looks like the one from Prison Break. So if anyone needs to be paranoid, it is you


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## voyagerfan99 (Aug 23, 2012)

S.T.A.R.S. said:


> You people are overreacting.If you are SOOO afraid that someone will recover your data then just melt the entire hard disk drive:



Re-read this thread. He's been trying to unsuccessfully recover his own data.


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## S.T.A.R.S. (Aug 25, 2012)

larsch said:


> Well, you were the one that posted the picture of your system. It almost looks like the one from Prison Break. So if anyone needs to be paranoid, it is you



Hey I am just careful.
By the way don't try to break into my system data room,otherwise you can say GOODBYE to your head ^.^



voyagerfan99 said:


> Re-read this thread. He's been trying to unsuccessfully recover his own data.



Umm...I never tryed unsuccessfuly recover my own data in the past 10 years and I also never lost anything in the past 10 years.


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## Captain Kirk (Mar 2, 2013)

*response*

Stars,
Good for you that you haven't lost any data in the last 10 years. Guess you just got 50/50 lucky as Johnb35 said. I lost 20 Gigs of data! 20 Gigs of data from my head said GOODBYE..

Wolfeking,
I not TRYING to cause my data to become unrecoverable on 'purpsose' -- I'm trying to prevent data from being lost in the future. I wanted to know how data can be permanently lost so that I don't do these things. I also wanted to know if the recovery programs that I was using were 'good' enough to be able to recovery data, if the data could be recovered.

But anyways, your comment was pretty funny nonetheless

Johnb35,
Bigfellla does not seem to think that data can become unrecoverable after a single format, even after you stated:
"Nothing is full proof. Being able to recover data from a drive that has been formatted is gonna be 50/50."

--Captain Kirk


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## Okedokey (Mar 2, 2013)

A single format is about as secure as turning off the computer.


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## MyCattMaxx (Mar 2, 2013)

I have recovered data from several hard drives that were formatted.
One of them was mine from accidentally picking the wrong drive to format.


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## Captain Kirk (Mar 3, 2013)

Bigfellla,
I wasn't trying to make my data secure by trying to destroy. What I was saying, was that I lost data from a new Windows install with the blue screen setup option to format the hd before the installation proceeds. Then, later, after the OS was installed, I tried to RECOVER, not destroy, my lost data, but was not successful -- and this was from only a SINGLE format.

Don't you find that strange?
I mean, it only sounds logical that the data would still be there, right?

MyCatteMaxx,
I have recovered data from a flash drive

--Captain Kirk


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## Okedokey (Mar 3, 2013)

Captain Kirk said:


> Bigfellla,
> .. Then, later, after the OS was installed, I tried to RECOVER, not destroy, my lost data, but was not successful -- and this was from only a SINGLE format.
> 
> Don't you find that strange?
> ...



You arent seeming to understand what a format does.  A simple format simply makes the areas on the HDD re-avialble for writing too.  It doesn't destroy what is on that part of the disk UNTIL you write information there.

The format didn't destroy your data, the OS installation did.

Therefore a simple format isn't what prevented you recovering your data.


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## MyCattMaxx (Mar 3, 2013)

Captain Kirk said:


> Bigfellla,
> I wasn't trying to make my data secure by trying to destroy. What I was saying, was that I lost data from a new Windows install with the blue screen setup option to format the hd before the installation proceeds. Then, later, after the OS was installed, I tried to RECOVER, not destroy, my lost data, but was not successful -- and this was from only a SINGLE format.
> 
> Don't you find that strange?
> ...


I don't find it strange.
You admitted that you tried to recover data after writing onto the hard drive.
It is very hard to recover data that has been written over.


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## Captain Kirk (Mar 4, 2013)

Yes its true that I installed the OS first before trying to recover the data, but the XP OS only takes up 1 gig of space, therefore the undestroyed space that is "available" is still 19 Gigs, which still doesn't account for the data that I lost. Because as you said, the space is still there, "UNTIL you write information there."

And as you said, "It is very hard to recover data that has been written over." But only 1 gig of space has been 'written' over, as this is the size of the OS

--Captain Kirk


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## Okedokey (Mar 4, 2013)

Captain Kirk said:


> Yes its true that I installed the OS first before trying to recover the data, but the XP OS only takes up 1 gig of space, therefore the undestroyed space that is "available" is still 19 Gigs, which still doesn't account for the data that I lost. Because as you said, the space is still there, "UNTIL you write information there."
> 
> And as you said, "It is very hard to recover data that has been written over." But only 1 gig of space has been 'written' over, as this is the size of the OS
> 
> --Captain Kirk



Again, you're assuming something, which makes you wrong.

For your assumption to work, all the data needs to be lined up neatly next to each other.  Even a very defragmented drive will not all be contiguous.  Parts of any individual file are spread all over the disk and various arrays on the disk 'memorise where these parts are' for later recovery.

By overwriting any of the disk (particularly the inner HDD tracks as happens on newly formated disk), you are destroying parts of these files, making the rest incomplete.  Yes, the remaining 'parts' of your files will be on the other 19GB, but it is now garbled.

Essentially you completed what a proper format does, which is to write to the sectors.  By installing the OS you almost couldn't have done more damage to your chances of getting the files back.

If it had've been a simple format, you'd probably have the data back by now.  A simple Windows Recovery and Start up repair wouldve sorted it.

The only way to possible get back is if you have back up.

I would also complete a diskcheck.

Partition your drive so that if the OS goes pear-shaped, your files (on a secondary partition) will not be touched during reinstall.


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## Captain Kirk (Mar 4, 2013)

So you said 'a simple format' doesn't destroy the data right? So if I don't write any data on it then the data will still be there.

So now the question is, if I was to format this hd 4 times without ever writting data on it, would the original data still be there and available for use, like for a restore with a recovery program?

--Captain Kirk


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## wolfeking (Mar 4, 2013)

Yes. the number of formats does not really matter. All format does is open your drives blocks for writting. It basically lies to the OS and says that there is nothing there. Sort of like if you hide a knife in your boot, you still have the knife. The boot is the format and teh knife is the data. 

But as soon as you a=start installing an os, or writting any data, you start destroying bits of data. You can likely recover some of it, but if necessary bits are destroyed, then the data will be unrecoverable.


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## Okedokey (Mar 5, 2013)

Captain Kirk said:


> So you said 'a simple format' doesn't destroy the data right? So if I don't write any data on it then the data will still be there.
> 
> So now the question is, if I was to format this hd 4 times without ever writting data on it, would the original data still be there and available for use, like for a restore with a recovery program?
> 
> --Captain Kirk



Yes. and Yes.


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## Captain Kirk (Mar 6, 2013)

Wolfeking, hey what's up bro?
Long time no see!
How you been?

If you only have one hd and you format the drive, _is there a way_ to install the OS somehow so that 

you don't lose all 20 Gigs of data when you then try to restore it with a recovery program?

--Captain Kirk


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## MyCattMaxx (Mar 6, 2013)

If you have enough free space you can add a partition and move the data you want saved to the new partition.
Then you can format just the OS partition for a re-install.

If the drive is full burn a bunch of back-up DVD's since you don't have a spare HDD.
You should be backing up your data anyway if it is valuable to you.

The way you are talking about doing it is just plain nuts.


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## Darren (Mar 6, 2013)

A hammer.


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## Captain Kirk (Mar 7, 2013)

Would you be able to recover data after one pass with a Kill Disk, such as with dban?

Or would this render all your data unrecoverable?

--Captain Kirk


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## Okedokey (Mar 7, 2013)

Captain Kirk said:


> Would you be able to recover data after one pass with a Kill Disk, such as with dban?
> 
> Or would this render all your data unrecoverable?
> 
> --Captain Kirk



Yes, unless it writes to the disk.


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## Captain Kirk (Mar 7, 2013)

Denther said:


> A hammer.


That's funny. Yea, that would definitely do it.
Best Answer

Doesn't a Kill Disk write to the disk?

I thought that that was what the purpose of this program!...

--Captain Kirk


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## MyCattMaxx (Mar 7, 2013)

One pass of zeros with either with make it harder for amateurs to recover the data but it is still possible and only someone who is serious would spend the time and money to recover it.


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## Okedokey (Mar 7, 2013)

Captain Kirk said:


> That's funny. Yea, that would definitely do it.
> Best Answer
> 
> Doesn't a Kill Disk write to the disk?
> ...



Actually physically destroying the platter doesn't prevent (theoretically) data recover.  You would need to chemically alter the disk (burn it etc) to really destroy the data.

I think military standard pass is 8?


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## FuryRosewood (Mar 7, 2013)

id think military level includes destroying the harddrive...nothing more secure.


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## Okedokey (Mar 7, 2013)

I worked for a company in London that collected MI5 and MI6 paper waste.

It came as dust.

Then we acid treated it.

Not a word of exaggeration.

so yeah..



FuryRosewood said:


> id think military level includes destroying the harddrive...nothing more secure.



But i think "military standard" from memory is 'industry speak' for 8 passes?

Quick, someone mathematical explain.

BUt I think on standard latitudinal disks, the imprint of data (magnetic) is similar looking to the pin-out of a DVI connector
Dependant on which 'pin' is ON, which is OFF, will determine the data meaning
Later models simply turned the data writing on its head by using longitudinal writing, allowing greater read and write density (i.e. more 'magnetic DVI imprints' per unit area)

So 8 passes has something to do with ensuring each of the pins is randomly at a different "magnetic states" post format.


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## Captain Kirk (Mar 8, 2013)

Bigfellla,
what up bro?

So I guess a hammer was NOT the best answer: as the data can still theorectically be recovered.
Acid: Bigfellla got the Best Answer.

Someone said that 7 passes was enough, and all that you need.
I guess an extra pass is kind of a "just because" pass, as a maximum security standard I guess.
Military standard it would seem would be greater than "normal", sort of an "overkill" mentality.

At this point you have no doubts about being safe.
The reality of James Bond is not as fun as the movies in real life.
But its still good to know basic procedures.

What I don't understand is why they even waste their time with a paper shredder, unless they want other people to find the information.
I thought a burn box was completely safe.

However, if time was an issue, as a killdisk pass takes 1 full day, and your killdisk was "interrupted" in the middle so that it was not able to complete a full pass,
would your information be able to be recovered with a "common person's" recovery program; meaning that military grade software is not used?
(Assuming that you already have recovery software).

_This happened to me once, and I was wondering if I would have been able to recover the data at this point..._

--Captain Kirk


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