# Watts?



## byteninja2

Well, I was thinking. Why do many people need 750 watts if they don't sli or Cfx? Because, you get a low to mid end gaming rig. You have a gtx 670 in it for 250w, a 3570 k for 75w, and other stuff for around 50w. Add a oc, add 30w. A 500w would be all you need, am I missing something? Here is the reason I am asking the question: I am thinking of getting these: i3 2100t, only 35w! A gtx 260, 180w, other stuff 50 w MAX, more like 30w. So, like 300w on a 380w psu, do you think im right, could my psu handle this?


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## voyagerfan99

Minimum PSU requirements for the GTX 260 is a 550W PSU, preferably 600W.


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## MyCattMaxx

Several reasons:
1. Headroom for future upgrades.
2. Sometimes a sale makes it worth it.
3. Just looks and sounds better in pics and on a sig.

Edit: Smart people leave headroom so the PS doesn't have to work near the limit.

Edit 2: Throw your figures out the windows once you start overclocking.


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## byteninja2

voyagerfan99 said:


> Minimum PSU requirements for the GTX 260 is a 550W PSU, preferably 600W.


Everything used more watts 3 years ago. The tdp for a 260 under max load is almost 190 watts @maxx, headroom, yup. But my psu won't be working to close to the limit it still would have 50 watts of headroom. And, the next component I get in a couple months will be a psu, so will it be fine for now?


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## MyCattMaxx

I can tell you what a GTX 260 draws on my system this weekend.
Another factor is as a PS gets older the caps degrade and will limit what the PS can actually deliver.
You can probably get away with it for short term, but I personally wouldn't be gaming with it.
I personally wouldn't risk my other parts to a PS failure.
Edit: Is that 380 watts on the 12v rail?


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## byteninja2

MyCattMaxx said:


> I can tell you what a GTX 260 draws on my system this weekend.
> Another factor is as a PS gets older the caps degrade and will limit what the PS can actually deliver.
> You can probably get away with it for short term, but I personally wouldn't be gaming with it.
> I personally wouldn't risk my other parts to a PS failure.
> Edit: Is that 380 watts on the 12v rail?



Don't know, here is my psu: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151022


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## WeatherMan

I would say it wouldn't be an issue, Seasonic is an excellent brand, and you have 10+15A 12v rails. 

I am also thinking of doing the same thing, I have run a overclocked E6750 & overclocked 9800GTX+ on my 450w PowerCool PSU for over a year, it has 12+14A on the 12v rails.

When I build my new system, I am going to use this PSU, It was rock solid with my old build, with a CPU of the same TDP, that was overclocked, my i3 2100 will not be, my 9800GTX+ had a TDP of 141w, so I am looking for a new GPU around the 150w mark to keep it safe.


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## byteninja2

But, is my psu supplying the 200 watts I need to the rail my gpu will be on?


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## WeatherMan

one of your 12v rails is rated at 15A, 12x15 = 180w.

I forgot to look at that! This is now not a good idea..


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## MyCattMaxx

byteninja2 said:


> But, is my psu supplying the 200 watts I need to the rail my gpu will be on?


Nope.


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## byteninja2

Bootup05 said:


> one of your 12v rails is rated at 15A, 12x15 = 180w.
> 
> I forgot to look at that! This is now not a good idea..


Oh, cheese, 2 watts off. Well, that was at extreme full load for the gpu. I will just take the voltage down a little bit, bring it to 175w hopefully.


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## WeatherMan

Do you have a Watt-Meter?

What I am going to do is stick my system together, run it at stock and check the power usage, then slowly bump it up to where I'm comfortable at with the Performance/Power ratio..


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## spirit

byteninja2 said:


> Well, I was thinking. Why do many people need 750 watts if they don't sli or Cfx? Because, you get a low to mid end gaming rig. You have a gtx 670 in it for 250w, a 3570 k for 75w, and other stuff for around 50w. Add a oc, add 30w. A 500w would be all you need, am I missing something? Here is the reason I am asking the question: I am thinking of getting these: i3 2100t, only 35w! A gtx 260, 180w, other stuff 50 w MAX, more like 30w. So, like 300w on a 380w psu, do you think im right, could my psu handle this?



I agree with all the other answers here, one other reason is that sometimes the price difference between say a 500W and a 600W unit is so small that it just makes sense to go with the higher wattage unit. If you had the choice between a good 650W and it was say 70 bucks and a 750W version of the same PSU was 75 bucks, which would you choose? I'd go for the 750W one, only 5 bucks more. More future-proof too.


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## byteninja2

Well, is everybody sure the gpu rail is 180 watts?


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## MyCattMaxx

byteninja2 said:


> Well, is everybody sure the gpu rail is 180 watts?


If it isn't then it's the 120 watt rail, but usually the V2 rail is for PCIe and that is the 180 watt rail.
You have the PS so take a look.


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## byteninja2

MyCattMaxx said:


> If it isn't then it's the 120 watt rail, but usually the V2 rail is for PCIe and that is the 180 watt rail.
> You have the PS so take a look.



How can I tell by looking at the psu?


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## StrangleHold

The 1st rail is the CPU rail. Everything else pulls off the 2nd. rail, from the motherboard/PCIe slots/PCI slots/molex connectors/sata connectors/PCIe power connectors. So you have 180W for everything except the CPU.


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## MyCattMaxx

V2 180 watts is the gpu power.
But from what I gather from the feedback dates on Newegg the PS is around 5 years old.
I wouldn't trust the caps for running near the rated limit.


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## StrangleHold

MyCattMaxx said:


> V2 180 watts is the gpu power.


 
Not only the GPU, everything but the CPU.


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## Okedokey

StrangleHold said:


> Not only the GPU, everything but the CPU.



Correct and this is why watts mean very little.  Along with expected load you need to de-rate the PSU between 1 - 4W for every degree over the MTBF temperature (cheap - 25oC, expensive = 40oC or 50oC).


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## byteninja2

Oh cheese. I guess I will get a gts 450.


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## Hyper-Threaded

byteninja2 said:


> Oh cheese. I guess I will get a gts 450.



Join the club  I would say get a  better power supply, but since im using a raidmax power supply I cant say much. Gts450 on a old 380 watt? Kinda iffy. Your call.


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## byteninja2

Okay, apparently my psu is different than the picture, I think.Here is what my PSU says:130w max on +3.3v and +5v and 300w on +12V1 and +12V2 and  9.6w on -12V and 10w on +5Vsb, if you need any more info like amps, let me know.


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## wolfeking

we need the amps on both 12 volt rails to tell you for sure if the card will work on it.


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## byteninja2

+12V1 has 10a and +12V2 has 15a


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## wolfeking

thats 120 watts and 180 watts more or less before age degeneration. The 450 needs a max of 106 watts according to nvidia. So you should be fine on either rail. 
http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gts-450/specifications


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## Okedokey

OMG, what?

Im sorry but a cheap-ass PSU with 12A on CPU and `15A on 12V+2 MAX is completely and utterly not able to support any discrete graphics card.

Derate that bad boy and you will see that the 300W 12V max rating is more like 240W.  You add even the crappest discrete GPU, add summer = bang.

You need a new PSU.


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## byteninja2

WTC?The best gpu to date uses 200w.Oh, @wolfe, can I run a graphics card using both rails?


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## wolfeking

I don't think so. And I would go with bigfella on this. He is much more knowledgeable about power supplies. 

You can only use one rail at a time. With that little power, your 6 pin will only be on one rail. And at 240 watts you have to take off RAM power, DVD drives, HDDs, and CPU power as well as your fans. Your looking probably around 110 or so after everything comes off (just guessing) and that is on a cold day with no heat in teh room.


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## byteninja2

Why do temps matter?Plus, my case keeps components cool like a freezer.7 80 mm fans does a lot, and I have a HUGE case, so great airflow.


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## wolfeking

the hotter it is the less efficient the power supply is. a 500 watt @ 30* will be less, probably 420 at 80*. 
No matter how much air you put into it, it will never be as cool as room temp.


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## Hyper-Threaded

byteninja2 said:


> Why do temps matter?Plus, my case keeps components cool like a freezer.7 80 mm fans does a lot, and I have a HUGE case, so great airflow.



Get a new power supply. Its $40 for a 430watt corsair. Dont cheap out on this one. And you dont need to WTC bigfella, he knows what he is doing. Trying to see if other people says your good is not going to help.


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## Okedokey

^+1


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## byteninja2

Hmmm...Okay.But, still running very cool.So, lets say -20w.So here is what I think I could do with everything at full load:So, here:30w for hdd, 10w for memory, and 30w for baord (i doubt this, what do you think?), and 20w for psu temp, i have no cd rom.Fans use 25w max i think, 3w a fan i think.So,115w.Than, which rail has 120w, 12V2 or V1?And, i did need to say wtc to bigfella.He is quite knowladable, but I dont think he understands some pretty powerfull gpus can use just above 100w, not everything requires 800w like his 580 tri sli setup.I have no idea why he said only the worst gpus can use that little power.I CANNOT get a new psu right now.


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## MyCattMaxx

Just go for it and when it blows up don't say that you weren't warned.

Beating on this isn't going to make it better with that PS.


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## Okedokey

byteninja2 said:


> WTC?The best gpu to date uses 200w.Oh, @wolfe, can I run a graphics card using both rails?



It works like this mate:

Power supply units that are rated at MAX, is another way of saying it will go bang if you try to load 300W.
Temperature increases resistance in a linear relationship
Resistance increases heat, and resistance causes heat (this is how electrical fires start).
A viscious circle is produced.

The higher the resistance the higher the inefficiency (the PSU is consuming more than its fair share).

The higher the heat output of the PSU, the higher the case temp gets, the lower the efficiency.

Basically if that PSU is rated at max 300W on the 12V rail (70% efficiency) you would derate it by 4W every 1 degree (C) above 25oC.  Inside a stressed computer in summer that can easily be 60oC (ie 35oC above rating), meaning you derate it by 4 x 35 = 140W.  

That means that in summer your PSU will only be able to provide 160W on the 12V rail MAX!!  ie bang if you want more

Meanwhile, the ATX design standard means that 12V+1 is dedicated to the CPU.  This means that half the 160W (ie 80W) is electrically isolated to only provide power to the CPU (ie. not available elsewhere regardless of load).

That means you have 80W of power 6.6A for your whole 12V system minus the cpu.  

Insufficient.


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## byteninja2

I am trying to ask a question, and you guys are saying how bad my psu is.Is the 120w on the +12V1 or V2?Listen to this:My system was just using my psu with all most exactly the same specs, just about 20w lower power draw.My gfx card currently takes 70w.Also, i thought you guys said the CPU goes off a whole different rail, the one that says 120w?


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## Okedokey

Already answered it if you had've read my respone.  12V+1 is CPU and if you understand basic ohms law, its 10A x 12V = 120W therefore it has to be the 12V+1 which is 10A, beacuse computers run at 12V.


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## wolfeking

max output is 12 times what your amps are when it was built and at the temp that it is designed for.  the 10 amp rail will be 120 max and teh 15 amp rail is 180 max. Minus age and tempature.  

YOu need a new PSU before you get anything else.


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## Hyper-Threaded

byteninja2 said:


> I am trying to ask a question, and you guys are saying how bad my psu is.Is the 120w on the +12V1 or V2?



Like cattmaxx said, If you dont want to take our advise, go ahead. No one is stopping you. You want to use your power supply so bad, just do it. If it blows up, its not on us.


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## Okedokey

You should fell good about providing you computer with solid, clean and powerful voltage regulation.  My PSU is overkill, but with a 7 year warranty, its the cheapest and best.


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## byteninja2

I am going with a GTS 450, you know why?My psu was working fine.I am putting a 30w less cpu in it, and the GTS450 is 30w more than my current gpu.So i think im safe.


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## Hyper-Threaded

byteninja2 said:


> I am going with a GTS 450, you know why?My psu was working fine.I am putting a 30w less cpu in it, and the GTS450 is 30w more than my current gpu.So i think im safe.



Ok, If anything happens, its on you.


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## byteninja2

Okay, but if anything doesnt happen within a couple months )blow up, etc), its on you.


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## Okedokey

byteninja2 said:


> I am going with a GTS 450, you know why?My psu was working fine.I am putting a 30w less cpu in it, and the GTS450 is 30w more than my current gpu.So i think im safe.



You still haven't understood that they're not connected.  The CPU wattage doesn't matter, because it is isolated and that POS CPU will never use 120W.

The GPU however in hot conditions can easily max that PSU, especially with 30W (out of a total of 160W = 19% increase in power), may take out your computer.

You have been warned.


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## Hyper-Threaded

byteninja2 said:


> Okay, but if anything doesnt happen within a couple months )blow up, etc), its on you.



 And if nothing happens its on me, What? 

Heres is an idea, use your 240 for now, buy a better power supply. When you get more money buy a better graphics card.


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## spirit

I agree with Bigfella and HT and MCC here, Byte. Honestly, a 380W with a GTS 450 is a bad idea. It's already been proven here a number of times that it's dangerous. 

I'd hold off getting a 450 now and instead spend the money on a better power supply now. Corsair CX 500, great power supply, cheap, will be fine. Will be more beneficial in the long run.


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## G80FTW

MyCattMaxx said:


> V2 180 watts is the gpu power.
> But from what I gather from the feedback dates on Newegg the PS is around 5 years old.
> I wouldn't trust the caps for running near the rated limit.



My psu is about 5 years old and its powering my system just fine. Just putting that out there.


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## G80FTW

bigfellla said:


> You should fell good about providing you computer with solid, clean and powerful voltage regulation.  My PSU is overkill, but with a 7 year warranty, its the cheapest and best.



I completely agree with this. Although 1200watts is more than overkill i think.


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## Gun

vistakid10 said:


> I agree with Bigfella and HT and MCC here, Byte. Honestly, a 380W with a GTS 450 is a bad idea. It's already been proven here a number of times that it's dangerous.
> 
> I'd hold off getting a 450 now and instead spend the money on a better power supply now. Corsair CX 500, great power supply, cheap, will be fine. Will be more beneficial in the long run.



I agree with all of this. 380W with a GTS 450? Definently bad and potentially dangerous idea. 

Heck, you probably know more about computers than me Byte, but I know one thing for sure: Never cheap out on a Power Supply. It's probably the most important part of a computer.


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## mr.doom

Please remember that rails and amps are not everything. You need to be thinking about your PSU efficiency. Say you go for a good brand but nothing high end, you will get max 80% efficiency. Say you buy the Corsair CX430. You have the nominal output of 430W but with it's efficiency it will output no more then: 344W. Add up all of your systems consumption and you will soon see it's not enough.

As others said, factor in the temperature and how hard (read "long") you want it to be alive. Factor in that if your PSU blows, it will most likely take out all of the major components in your PC (if you are lucky, it's "just" CPU, motherboard and the GPU). It really pays to get something better and with the prices and the competition within this market, you will be easily able to buy a good, known brand, 600W PSU. Remember, just because it has 600W, it doesn't mean it will draw that much, just as much as it's needed. It will have better efficiency, meaning more electricity it takes from the wall will be converted into the steady current for your components and less into the heat. You save energy, your ears (it will run silent) and a lots of cash in case of the blow from the cheaper PSU.


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## byteninja2

Oh yeah, s3?You know who has tried to allways try to get someone out of a bad psu?Me.I didnt cheap out on my PSU.In fact, I spent quite a bit on it being that its only 380w.My PSU will almost deffinatly run a GTS 450, i will be putting the same load on it as I am now.


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## mr.doom

byteninja2 said:


> Oh yeah, s3?You know who has tried to allways try to get someone out of a bad psu?Me.I didnt cheap out on my PSU.In fact, I spent quite a bit on it being that its only 380w.My PSU will almost deffinatly run a GTS 450, i will be putting the same load on it as I am now.



Same load as in comparison to GT 240? I can assure you thatGTS 450 takes way more power and therefore adds far more load to your PSU. Take notice that GT 240 runs only from PCI-E, while GTS 450 needs extra juice from the PSU too. I've run shortly GTS 450 from Corsair CX430, but 380, I'm not so sure.


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## byteninja2

Way more power? We're are you coming from? Here, i am being rude, I will stop. Okay, you guys gave great advice. And, I won't put that much power on my psu with a GTX 260.  UT, listen to this: I will have a 35w cpu, down from my 65w cpu I was running. I will have a GTS 450 for 100w, which is 30w more than my gt 240 (not way more power).


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## G80FTW

mr.doom said:


> Please remember that rails and amps are not everything. You need to be thinking about your PSU efficiency. Say you go for a good brand but nothing high end, you will get max 80% efficiency. Say you buy the Corsair CX430. You have the nominal output of 430W but with it's efficiency it will output no more then: 344W. Add up all of your systems consumption and you will soon see it's not enough.
> 
> As others said, factor in the temperature and how hard (read "long") you want it to be alive. Factor in that if your PSU blows, it will most likely take out all of the major components in your PC (if you are lucky, it's "just" CPU, motherboard and the GPU). It really pays to get something better and with the prices and the competition within this market, you will be easily able to buy a good, known brand, 600W PSU. Remember, just because it has 600W, it doesn't mean it will draw that much, just as much as it's needed. It will have better efficiency, meaning more electricity it takes from the wall will be converted into the steady current for your components and less into the heat. You save energy, your ears (it will run silent) and a lots of cash in case of the blow from the cheaper PSU.



Jeez man. Now you got me all scared that my PSU will fail at any moment!  Given that its nearly 5 years old and with my new computer I may be pushing it a little.  Iv never had a problem with Antec PSUs in the past though.

I dont wanna thread jack, but since we are on the topic here is what my voltages display:





Not sure if voltages can be any indication of age.....but I keep my stuff looking new, and this PSU still looks new on the inside.


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## byteninja2

Hey, that's how you get warnings/infractions, delete your post and make a thread.


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## MyCattMaxx

byteninja2 said:


> Way more power? We're are you coming from? Here, i am being rude, I will stop. Okay, you guys gave great advice. And, I won't put that much power on my psu with a GTX 260.  UT, listen to this: I will have a 35w cpu, down from my 65w cpu I was running. I will have a GTS 450 for 100w, which is 30w more than my gt 240 (not way more power).


You still don't get it.
Your cpu runs on V1.
You can have a 35 watt or a 95 watt cpu on there and it won't change the wattage available on V2 which runs the gpu and other things.
At this point just forget what your cpu uses, that does not effect the power available to the gpu.
Your PS has 2 12v rails that are separate from each other.

But it is YOUR system so feel free to take a chance on it, I personally would not.


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## G80FTW

byteninja2 said:


> Hey, that's how you get warnings/infractions, delete your post and make a thread.



I would have. But I felt like all the information that was asked for was already given and that this thread is really serving no other purpose but to argue about whether or not a certain PSU is strong enough to run what.  

So I figured if this thread is done serving its purpose, why waste time and create another one and instead give this thread a short purpose again?

I mean, from what Iv been reading its just been going back and forth for the past few pages.....


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## mr.doom

G80FTW said:


> I would have. But I felt like all the information that was asked for was already given and that this thread is really serving no other purpose but to argue about whether or not a certain PSU is strong enough to run what.
> 
> So I figured if this thread is done serving its purpose, why waste time and create another one and instead give this thread a short purpose again?
> 
> I mean, from what Iv been reading its just been going back and forth for the past few pages.....



I agree. At the end of the day it is up to the end user to decide how much they want to push their PSU. I'm just saying: spend 15-20 bucks more and get something decent, it will be cheaper then replacing fried parts in case of all goes south. Antec PSU's are great, no wonder you never had problems with it. Same goes for Corsair, which is my choice for every PC I build and it never failed me too. As much as many want to understate the PSU, it is by far one of the most important things - to get the right one in your rig.


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## StrangleHold

G80FTW said:


> I dont wanna thread jack, but since we are on the topic here is what my voltages display:


 
Your 12V rail is slightly low.

Everybody just quit dealing with byteninja2. He has been told. If he wants to use the one he has, let him.


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## byteninja2

Oh come on, seriously? Its my thread, and I am using this thread to ask questions.


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## WeatherMan

You sound like a spoilt kid, this thread is more than ready to be closed.


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## G80FTW

byteninja2 said:


> Oh come on, seriously? Its my thread, and I am using this thread to ask questions.



Then I will throw in my 2 cents and agree with the others here that that 380 just wont cut it.  Like others have said, it might work for a while, but I couldnt see it working for very long.  

My first computer had a 350W power supply. I ran an AMD Socket A 1.6GHz Athlon XP, 256MB of DDR RAM,  and a GeForce 2 MX200 and 2 75GB HDDs and an optical drive with about 4 80mm case fans and front LEDs.  This all ran fine on that power supply.  However, when I moved all the way up to my P4 setup in 2004ish it consisted of:

Same 350W power supply (it came with the case)
P4 Northwood 2.66GHz non-HT single core
512MB DDR500 RAM (single stick)
GeForce 6800 Ultra AGP

Everything else was the same.  Within a day I had to replace that power supply with an Ultra 400W power supply. That power supply lasted about a few months and then it too stopped working.  So I decided to go with a better brand and thats when I bought my first Antec which was a NeoPower 550W and that ran everything fine. (Until about 2007 when I got my 8800GTS, thats when I bought my current Antec)

Now, logically I shouldnt have needed a 550W power supply to run my computer, but like others said you dont wanna push the limits of your power supply or you could see it failing.  Luckily when mine went out, they just shut down and stopped booting up (most PSUs I believe have safety circuits to prevent them from frying anything if they die) but the point is you are going to want more than 380W of headroom no matter how good a brand the PSU is.

Just take it from people who have building computers for a long time. A good power supply should be the BASE of your entire computer. You should not start building a computer until you first calculate your power demand needs and find the RIGHT power supply to power it.  As without power, your computer is nothing. And dirty power can damage components which is why we stay away from cheap brands that are less efficient and dirty.  Im sure there are people here that have been building computers longer than me, but I think at one point or another we have all learned that its never good to under power your computer.


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## byteninja2

Okay: Thank you. I am not going with what I did before, and thanks all for the advice. However, I was gonna ask a couple more questions for when I decide what I will completly do. But, Hijacking a thred IS agianst the rules, so make a thread. I sent a PM to a mod to close the thread, as other members are setting a bad example to say it is okay to hijack.


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## G80FTW

byteninja2 said:


> Okay: Thank you. I am not going with what I did before, and thanks all for the advice. However, I was gonna ask a couple more questions for when I decide what I will completly do. But, Hijacking a thred IS agianst the rules, so make a thread. I sent a PM to a mod to close the thread, as other members are setting a bad example to say it is okay to hijack.



Look man, like I said I would never have asked a question in this thread if I thought that it otherwise could have been headed in a positive direction.  Which from what I was reading, it wasnt.


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## byteninja2

G80FTW said:


> Look man, like I said I would never have asked a question in this thread if I thought that it otherwise could have been headed in a positive direction.  Which from what I was reading, it wasnt.



Please dont take this the wrong way, but when somebody is still asking questions in the thread, you dont hijack. You shouldnt hijack at all, I personnally HATE it. Better stop posting, a Mod should be closing this soon.


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## G80FTW

byteninja2 said:


> Please dont take this the wrong way, but when somebody is still asking questions in the thread, you dont hijack. You shouldnt hijack at all, I personnally HATE it. Better stop posting, a Mod should be closing this soon.



My apologies. I did not see you asking questions, I saw you going back and forth with people arguing that you thought your PSU was enough. And it may be, but I wouldnt put my money on it.


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## byteninja2

And my apoligies to you for being rude, sorry. But lets act like this thread is closed, alright?


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## voyagerfan99

Okay I see this has gotten way out of hand. I'm gonna go back through and see who needs an infraction.

Don't skimp on a PSU. It's the most important part to a good and stable system.

G80, start a new thread next time instead of hijacking another thread.

Thread closed.


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