# How to NOT get raped by Apple..



## vonfeldt7

I recently purchased an iPod and I want to download some music for it, sounds pretty simple right? I thought so too, but then I remembered I was dealing with Apple. 

All I want is a service to download unlimited music for around $15 a month (so iTunes is out...which is unfortunate because it would have been the most convenient). The problem, is that half of the services out there that do this, aren't compatible with iTunes.

I've searched...and still am, but does anybody know of anything that'll do what I want? What about removing the DRM? Is that illegal? 

Why you have to jump through hoops to get legal music is beyond me, you'd think that they'd try to make it as easy as possible.


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## g4m3rof1337

Zune Music Pass, http://www.zune.net/en-US/marketplace/default.htm 

It doesn't work with iPods, but the Zune itself, is better than the iPod, IMO, its built better and its lasted longer than my iPod Video.


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## vonfeldt7

g4m3rof1337 said:


> Zune Music Pass, http://www.zune.net/en-US/marketplace/default.htm
> 
> It doesn't work with iPods, but the Zune itself, is better than the iPod, IMO, its built better and its lasted longer than my iPod Video.



Ha, I would get that...but the reason I got an iPod (ironically enough) was because my Zune broke. I did like it while it lasted though. (I just wanted to try something different).


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## lovely?

yeah ipods are pains in the ass if you insist on doing things legally. 

(i'll go ahead and shut up now)


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## vonfeldt7

lovely? said:


> yeah ipods are pains in the ass if you insist on doing things legally.
> 
> (i'll go ahead and shut up now)



I don't insist of doing it legally, I've always done it illegally before, but I thought maybe I'd try it legally, however if it's going to be this big of a hassle, then forget it.


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## PHATSPEED7x

Just use limewire. They have bigger things to worry about.


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## Emperor_nero

PHATSPEED7x said:


> Just use limewire. They have bigger things to worry about.



Discussing pirating is against the http://www.computerforum.com/52038-forum-rules.html.


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## thermophilis

Eh, you could always use napster, it's $13 a month I think and that's unlimited, you should just be able to drag those into itunes...but if you cancel your napster service, the next time you connect your iPod it deletes the music.


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## lovely?

Emperor_nero said:


> Discussing pirating is against the http://www.computerforum.com/52038-forum-rules.html.



which is why i decided to shut up. just take hints and save your money.


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## mep916

PHATSPEED7x said:


> Just use limewire. They have bigger things to worry about.



As you know, downloading music via Limewire is illegal, and discussion of this activity violate the forum rules. Not only that, many of the files shared with that program contain nasty malware, so you're basically suggesting that the OP put his entire PC at risk. Terrible advice. 

Infraction issued.


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## tlarkin

any subscription service that uses AAC or MP3 should work fine, the problem is, that a lot of them use WMA which is not supported by iPod.

WMA sucks anyway


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## Sir Travis D

Yes, windows media audio sucks because apple doesn't support it. Just another greedy company forcing people to use their service.

edit: Legal programs can record the songs, and convert them to non-drm. It is legal, but you have to pay about $40 for the program.


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## tlarkin

Sir Travis D said:


> Yes, windows media audio sucks because apple doesn't support it. Just another greedy company forcing people to use their service.
> 
> edit: Legal programs can record the songs, and convert them to non-drm. It is legal, but you have to pay about $40 for the program.



You should re-read the DMCA before you give advice like that.  Technically it is illegal to remove any kind of DRM on a protected property.

Apple does sell DRM free music on the ITMS, and its like a dollar a song or something.

Subscription based music is lame, because you don't own the music you lease it, and if you ever quit your subscription your music goes bye bye

WMA is popular because it is so DRM heavy.


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## Sir Travis D

You are not removing it though. You are recording it. The file does not change.

edit: No, wma is popular because you can pay $15 a month for 5,000 songs like me, or pay $5000 for the songs.


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## tlarkin

Sir Travis D said:


> You are not removing it though. You are recording it. The file does not change.



Again, go read the DMCA, you aren't allowed to transfer medias either.  Recording it, could more than likely be considered transferring it to a different media.

Of course there are fine lines and shades of gray, but saying it is out right legal is not a good idea.


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## mep916

Sir Travis D said:


> You are not removing it though. You are recording it. The file does not change.



Taken from the iTunes TOS ...



> (x) You agree that you will not attempt to, or encourage or assist any other person to, circumvent or modify any security technology or software that is part of the Service or used to administer the Usage Rules.



With that software, you are technically violating the above.


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## tlarkin

I wrote a 15 page paper on the DMCA and internet piracy in College when the DMCA was pretty much first enacted.  It has changed since then and since the law of our country (being the USA) is actually all conceptual there is no definite answer.  Since, it is up to a judge to interpret the law, not you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmca

If you want to read through endless pages of legal speak, go ahead and you will find all your answers and loop holes.


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## Sir Travis D

"Taken from the iTunes TOS ..."

I was talking about things like napster drm files...

edit: But the software does not change the file AT ALL. It simply plays it, and records what your computer is playing.


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## mep916

Can you provide a link to the program?


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## Sir Travis D

Yes, I will have to google it.

edit: IT says things like convert and remove drm, but it does not physically alter the file. 

http://tunebite.com/en/remove_drm/index.html

edit: If its not legal, feel free to delete the link .


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## mep916

Sir Travis D said:


> Yes, I will have to google it.



I already googled and found some. 

Dunno if they're legal or if they work, though.


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## Sir Travis D

I put the link in my post on page 2.


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## PHATSPEED7x

Someone please lock this before anyone else gets in trouble...


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## Punk

PHATSPEED7x said:


> Someone please lock this before anyone else gets in trouble...



Not everyone is giving advices like you are...


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## mep916

PHATSPEED7x said:


> Someone please lock this before anyone else gets in trouble...



This thread doesn't need to be locked. 

As far as the DRM stuff is concerned, I've spoken with apj101, and he doesn't have any problems with members discussing DRM circumvention, so long as the music is for personal use. Any talk of removing the DRM for the purposes of file sharing violate the forum rules.

vonfeld7 - It looks like you can obtain a free trial of both Napster and TuneBite. If you try it out, post back with the results.


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## apj101

mep916 said:


> This thread doesn't need to be locked.
> 
> As far as the DRM stuff is concerned, I've spoken with apj101, and he doesn't have any problems with members discussing DRM circumvention, so long as the music is for personal use. Any talk of removing the DRM for the purposes of file sharing violate the forum rules.
> 
> vonfeld7 - It looks like you can obtain a free trial of both Napster and TuneBite. If you try it out, post back with the results.



ill add to that.
This may seem like a contradiction, we seem to be allowing discussions around music sharing but not video sharing/downloading??? 

TO make clear, Im fine with this discussion as there are a LOT of valid reasons why you would want to remove the drm, mainly to play the song of different devices eg your car, your phone etc.... Whilst its not against copyright law there are potential license legal issues which are still be tested in the courts but are weak. 
When talking about films there are no valid reasons to be using torrents or other downloading methods and hence we do not discuss them here. And the argument in favour of knowing how to rip a dvd are not as strong as those for removing a DRM, and hence the reason for the apparent contradiction.

To put it simply Id say most people looking to remove drm do it for legit reasons
Most looking to rip dvds/download via torrents do it for non legit reasons.


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## just a noob

you could just search for the album at the local library, and put the songs onto itunes, thats what i do for my zune, not sure how legal that is though


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## vonfeldt7

mep916 said:


> This thread doesn't need to be locked.
> 
> As far as the DRM stuff is concerned, I've spoken with apj101, and he doesn't have any problems with members discussing DRM circumvention, so long as the music is for personal use. Any talk of removing the DRM for the purposes of file sharing violate the forum rules.
> 
> vonfeld7 - It looks like you can obtain a free trial of both Napster and TuneBite. If you try it out, post back with the results.



Well I'm using rhapsody & tunebite...and it seems to be working just fine. My only "complaint" is that it seems to take a long time to "convert" (whatever you want to call it) the files.


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## Sir Travis D

The only reason I am not using tunbite right now is because it crashes my windows explorer..


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## thermophilis

just a noob said:


> you could just search for the album at the local library, and put the songs onto itunes, thats what i do for my zune, not sure how legal that is though



You know I've been wondering if that's legal. Does anybody know?


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## just a noob

i believe making a hard copy would be illegal


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## rickydumm

About this Tunebite u're using, does it also work for converting some videos?


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## massahwahl

g4m3rof1337 said:


> Zune Music Pass, http://www.zune.net/en-US/marketplace/default.htm
> 
> It doesn't work with iPods, but the Zune itself, is better than the iPod, IMO, its built better and its lasted longer than my iPod Video.



agreed! I went through 2 ipods and their crappy music store before finally learning my lesson and going with Zune!


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## tlarkin

ukulele_ninja said:


> agreed! I went through 2 ipods and their crappy music store before finally learning my lesson and going with Zune!



disagree, iPod Touch for the win!  I could never go back after using a touch, and love my touch.  Best swag I ever got!


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## massahwahl

tlarkin said:


> disagree, iPod Touch for the win!  I could never go back after using a touch, and love my touch.  Best swag I ever got!



how much did you spend on the ipod touch for how much memory?

I fail to see how a touch screen somehow makes the device worth so much! With the zune, it never leaves my car. In the morning before I leave I connect wirelessy to our home network from the driveway and download any new songs i added the night before and away I go! Not only that but after almost three years, the battery still lasts about 5 days with normal driving use. 

I guess im just not into the whole touch screen fad. I hate them all the stupid new phones coming out and dont see a purpose for it on the ipod. Just my opinion though


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## tlarkin

ukulele_ninja said:


> how much did you spend on the ipod touch for how much memory?
> 
> I fail to see how a touch screen somehow makes the device worth so much! With the zune, it never leaves my car. In the morning before I leave I connect wirelessy to our home network from the driveway and download any new songs i added the night before and away I go! Not only that but after almost three years, the battery still lasts about 5 days with normal driving use.
> 
> I guess im just not into the whole touch screen fad. I hate them all the stupid new phones coming out and dont see a purpose for it on the ipod. Just my opinion though



It was S.W.A.G. (Stuff We All Get - it was free).  It is an 8gig model and it is more than just an iPod.  I can VNC control my desktop with it, I can sync and stream music off my library at home over the the internet, so I have access to over 100gigs of music.  I have games and other apps on it, and the touch screen interface is slick and very nice.

I wish it was a 32 gig though.


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## massahwahl

tlarkin said:


> It was S.W.A.G. (Stuff We All Get - it was free).  It is an 8gig model and it is more than just an iPod.  I can VNC control my desktop with it, I can sync and stream music off my library at home over the the internet, so I have access to over 100gigs of music.  I have games and other apps on it, and the touch screen interface is slick and very nice.
> 
> I wish it was a 32 gig though.



Oh cool, well if it was free then that makes anything sweet!  

I guess i dont mind not having the remote desktop and such on the Zune because I can do that on my Blackberry. I strictly use the Zune for music, as thats all I wanted in a music player... Music!


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## tlarkin

ukulele_ninja said:


> Oh cool, well if it was free then that makes anything sweet!
> 
> I guess i dont mind not having the remote desktop and such on the Zune because I can do that on my Blackberry. I strictly use the Zune for music, as thats all I wanted in a music player... Music!



I also have a blackberry for work and it can't hold a stick to the interface of my Touch.  I want an iPhone really bad now, but hate AT&Ts plans and rates, and their coverage sucks IMO, but I can't justify dropping $600 for a phone so I can unlock it and toss it on T-Mobile.

I mean web browsing on a touch versus my Blackberry 8330 is night and day difference.  My blackberry sucks a big one, and I am using the Opera mini browser on it.

If you jail break your iPod touch it opens up a whole world of apps for you as well.  It is almost like a pocket computer that plays music.


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## gamerman4

Most likely that software does something that is illegal. You may not be modifying the DRM file but I would consider it under the category of "circumventing".


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## DirtyD86

Not saying any names, but I love how people frown on those who mention piracy, when you know damn well you do it yourself. I wouldn't go so far as to call you a hypocrite, but.... yeah, you're a hypocrite.


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## massahwahl

tlarkin said:


> I also have a blackberry for work and it can't hold a stick to the interface of my Touch.  I want an iPhone really bad now, but hate AT&Ts plans and rates, and their coverage sucks IMO, but I can't justify dropping $600 for a phone so I can unlock it and toss it on T-Mobile.
> 
> I mean web browsing on a touch versus my Blackberry 8330 is night and day difference.  My blackberry sucks a big one, and I am using the Opera mini browser on it.
> 
> If you jail break your iPod touch it opens up a whole world of apps for you as well.  It is almost like a pocket computer that plays music.



I'm in love with the Opera browser! I will say that I have not had the chance to play with the web browsing on the itouch so I really can't comment on it but overall I've never been a fan of touch screens. 

Here in Ohio ATT has the absolute best coverage. My girlfriend has a phone with my plan and a verizon phone from her parents former contract. Her Verizon looses service in some stores and several times lost service during our trip to Myrtle Beach in September, while our ATT service ONLY lost service when we drove the tunnels in West Virginia. I used to have Sprint and well, no one needs to tell you how miserable their service and customer support is! 

I've hard good things about T-Mobile though.


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## tlarkin

ukulele_ninja said:


> I'm in love with the Opera browser! I will say that I have not had the chance to play with the web browsing on the itouch so I really can't comment on it but overall I've never been a fan of touch screens.
> 
> Here in Ohio ATT has the absolute best coverage. My girlfriend has a phone with my plan and a verizon phone from her parents former contract. Her Verizon looses service in some stores and several times lost service during our trip to Myrtle Beach in September, while our ATT service ONLY lost service when we drove the tunnels in West Virginia. I used to have Sprint and well, no one needs to tell you how miserable their service and customer support is!
> 
> I've hard good things about T-Mobile though.



Yeah the opera mini is like a billion times better than the bb browser, but safari on an ipod touch or iphone is a billion times better than that.  I wish I could screen capture my ipod touch, I would post videos of what I am talking about, and do side by side comparison to my blackberry, which is 3G CDMA through verizon.

My blackberry is for work, and we have gone throgh:  nextell, sprint, verizon, ATT, and my personal cell phone is T-Mobile.  T-mobile has the best coverage nation wide hands down in my personal experience.  I have traveled all over and my phone always got way better reception than my work phones ever did.

I don't know why you hate on touch screens so much, but to each their own I suppose.  I am telling you though just browsing through multiple pages is so bad ass and smooth.  I was looking up movie times, the weather, my email, and logged into my personal web site all at once.  Seeminglessly switching between pages with my ipod touch.

I just need to figure out how to make a mobile version of my site to make it so it loads perfect on the hand helds.


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## gamerman4

DirtyD86 said:


> Not saying any names, but I love how people frown on those who mention piracy, when you know damn well you do it yourself. I wouldn't go so far as to call you a hypocrite, but.... yeah, you're a hypocrite.



lol
that's like saying, I'm not gonna call you retarded.....but you're retarded! 
I don't frown on all pirates, I think breaking the law can sometimes get things done right (Spore for example) but when you can pay a small monthly payment and get as many DRM-free songs as you want and often at the same or higher bitrate (higher than limewire and other similar P2P apps, torrents are a different story) as those that you can pirate, then it is a good alternative since it doesn't break rules. I think any service that requires a pay-per-song policy won't work in tody's world where people want thousands of songs and want to download hundreds more. How would you possibly fill up a 160GB iPod with legal music if you have to per for every single file?


Also, about the opera browser. I have an Archos 604 Wifi with a touchscreen (30GB HDD) and the opera browser is so much better than my PSPs browser even though the PSP has a faster CPU and more RAM.


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## Punk

lovely? said:


> yeah ipods are pains in the ass if you insist on doing things legally.
> 
> (i'll go ahead and shut up now)



What are you talking about?

I have an ipod video, I buy my music of the Itunes store and have no problem whatsoever.


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## rickydumm

gamerman4 said:


> Most likely that software does something that is illegal. You may not be modifying the DRM file but I would consider it under the category of "circumventing".



Why call it illegal?As far as I read that Tunebite "legally re-records" the files, it does not in any way modify the original drm'ed files.
So my thoughts are,feel free to correct me, as far as I know in the Windows accessories there's a little proggie called sound recorder which records what comes through your soundcard, this also works with any music u might listen The basic principles are the same, only the quality is way better  and u have more options when using a certain program for doing the recordings.If that option exist in windows and is perfectly legal, why should such programs be otherwise.


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## netrick

Has anyone tried Radiotracker? The May 2008 issue of Maximim PC magazine gave this one of their "softy awards". I have not tried it so I cannot vouch for how well it works, but Maximum PC seemed to like it. It looks like the software itself costs $40, but there is a free trial. http://www.maximumpc.com/article/maximum_pcs_sixth_annual_softy_awards?page=0%2C2

Quote from the description.


> If you don’t mind compromising a smidgen on audio quality, Radiotracker offers an incredibly easy way to build a huge library of free—and legally acquired—digital music.



Just a thought on a legal way to download songs.


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## rickydumm

Never did try it, but I also read about it when I was poking around some sites on the web.It's quite  interesting the idea to get a lot of music legally.Tell me how it works if u try it.


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