# Two Laptops (Mac or PC)



## imaginaryD

I'm going to University next year, and I have a dilema facing two computers; a Macbook Pro or Asus U30JC-A1, here are the specs:

1) Asus U30JC-A1

- Intel® Core™ i3 Processor 350M 2.26 GHz
- NVIDIA® GeForce® G 310M, with 512MB & Intel GMA HD (Support NVIDIA Optimus Technology) VRAM
- 320GB HDD
- 4GB Ram

http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/PID-MX28876(ME).aspx


2) Macbook Pro

- Intel® Core 2 Duo Processor 2.4 GHz
- NVIDIA GeForce 320M graphics
- 250GB HDD
- 4GB Ram

http://store.apple.com/ca/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macbook_pro?mco=OTY2ODExMA

I don't plan on doing any gaming of any kind, schoolwork mostly...another dilema, iWork vs Microsoft Office? From the advice I got, I heard iWork is a lot more simple to use, Microsoft Office was put as "too clumped together"


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## Metallica17

If your using it for just school, save your money and don't get the mac. They aren't good anyways. The laptop you give has everything better about it over the mac, and the mac is still more expensive. Just go with the Asus.


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## FuryRosewood

some of the macs have had build quality issues due to nvidia lying about gpu issues...and continuing to sell them... however i dont think there are any issues with the core based MBPs... if your not planning on gaming, honestly you could probably cheap out on a laptop from anyone, i still will stress warranties, warranties warranties...

laptops are disposable to me, if they break your pretty much done, so get something that will cover you in event of stupid happening...cus trust me...with a laptop, stupid WILL happen


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## DMGrier

I would stick with a PC. If your going to college you might want to think about getting something with a good battery, probably like a 12 cell. Both Toshiba and Hp offer computer's with them. MS office is easy to use, I wasn't very good at it but I use it for work and I picked it up pretty quick. I use MS power point, word and excel. I would even go try bestbuy, they have good deals, I bought my laptop for 999$ about 4 months ago there (the one in sig) and for the price it is still better then the macbook other then graphics but I dont do a lot of gaming. Plus even though I bought it at bestbuy it came with a 2 year manufature warrenty from Dell. It's bestbuy blue tag computers.

I will recommend my laptop for 939.99, same as the one listed in my signature with 2 year warrenty from Dell. It has been a great computer and I am in the Navy so it spends a lot of time being moved around.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Dell+-+...cino/9718931.p?id=1218158732672&skuId=9718931

Here is a HP for 659.99$, not as nice as the Dell but does have blue ray.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/HP+-+Pa...lack/9700814.p?id=1218152462714&skuId=9700814

This Toshiba is nice 784.99$, 12 cell battery but the laptop is kinda big.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Toshiba...lack/9705212.p?id=1218154377590&skuId=9705212


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## jjsevdt

Metallica17 said:


> don't get the mac. They aren't good anyways. The laptop you give has everything better about it over the mac, and the mac is still more expensive.


 
I'm not really sure what you're basing this on?  I'm sure you've had years of experience to which you base you're claim [Said in sarcastic tone while noting you're only 16]  

Macs are a bit more expensive if you look at raw computing power, but that's not what they sell.  They're selling you a product that's going to last for years on end.  They're selling you the ability to take you're laptop to any Apple Store and not have to ship it in the mail and get lost in the shuffle.  The battery life on the Macs is excellent.  They actually get close to what they claim.  If you get a 12cell battery it's usually bigger and heavier.  Try to find a laptop that delivers the usability and power of a Mac in the same size.  It won't happen.  I searched for a month before purchasing.  Size and weight were big considerations due to traveling on a deployment.

As one person pointed out his laptops are disposible, but Macs actually have a resell value and you can usually get $1000 off a used MBP.  

Windows 7 is a great operating system.  I love it.  I usually keep it on my MBP as well.  There's a lot of things that Microsoft has derived from OS X.

Am I being biased because I own a Mac?  You may think so, but I'm just trying to point out the benifits and hate when people flat out say Macs suck without substantiating their claim.


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## imaginaryD

I was also looking for something with a pretty decent battery life, the Macbook gets about 10 while the Asus gets about 12, so roughly the same

As far as price is concerned, these will be about the same, the Asus is $959.99 + $159.99 (Student version of Microsoft Office) so that would end up being $1120.00
The macbook on the other hand would be (including iWork) $1250.00 (Since I`m going to university apple has this promotion on where I get about 20% off and get a free iPod Touch)
SO...now that price really isn't really a huge deal, I would like opinions on durability, performance and longevity  

Thank you for making other recommendations, but I`m going to have to stick with these two products, in my opinion HPs and Dells vary in quality...Asus is fairly consistent (in my opinion) when it comes to build quality, etc. But PLEASE do not start a discussion about that, I just said that to clarify that I`m making a decision between these two

Thanks in advance!


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## Cameldude

well ,maybe 10 hours ,12 hours, while you are making your self coffee, and not doing anything else with the computer other than just staring at it. 
ahm, also student office is, where did you get that number out, the hat or what. look here http://www.microsoft.com/student/office/en-us/default.aspx, full version of office 79,99. 
so here is my opinion. if you want something shiny, and are not going to play any games that are interesting, (although steam started offering their (valve) games on macs now) and will use it for studying then i would suggest the Mac, you don't need the performace, durability i think depends on where made, not by who. I think macs would be perfect for you. i agree with you on the note of quality of dells, perhaps not so of HP. my friend has the mac, and a) she managed to break the disc space, somehow.. (D ithink she steped on it accidently) but i think unless it is a IBM laptop you would not get a laptop which could withstand standing on it, b) just to ask do what course will you be doing, will you need the performance of the computer, compatability of software usable in your course, all needs to be considered. i dunno, but you could go for a bit bigger one, you will get more for your money, look here http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/PID-MX29130(ME).aspx, i5, 500 gb, Blu ray. for prety much the same price. ok i know you are looking for long life, you don;t have to buy sony, but buy a bigger screen size laptop for same money, ok if you like asus then go for this one http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/PID-MX27208(ME).aspx.

Ok sorry i think i dragged on a little there. Ok my final thoughts, if as i said you are not going to be using it for anything other than office/iwork and internet than go for mac, anything else go for the asus, there good enough for you.


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## imaginaryD

yes I do realize the 10 and 12 hour battery lives are when the computer is doing minimal tasks on minimal brightness (something along those lines), I just would like something I could bring to school on a single charge, and use the whole day without having to worry about it dying
this is where I got the price for Office, sorry but my original price was definitely off http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product...spx?path=198d9d77f2a0e5b4855bd42827578453en02

Thank you for your suggestions for computers from MemoryExpress, I will definitely take them into consideration, I`m open to buying Vaio. I would prefer something under 16 inches for the simple fact of portability, so I guess really I'm going for value, battery life, and portability (and I know prior to your mention that Steam is available for mac, I was also thinking about that too)
also...what`s you opinion on the whole i3, i5 processor in the Vaio/Asus vs the Core 2 Duo processor in the Mac? I do realize the i3 and i5 are faster processors, but how significant of a difference do they make?


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## iGeekOFComedy

Steam is avaliable for mac and their trying to transition all of their titles over. Plus if your in college theres a chance you will have a digital camera. iPhoto kicks the windows counterpart so far. And if you have a girlfriend/Boyfriend depending on sex theres a faces features where it will look through all of the photos with faces and you can view a gallery of photos a specific person is in. Plus if your camera is geo tag enabled. Well theres places so you can zoom in on paris and if you taken any photos there, it will show in a selection. Most people do fine with Core 2 Duo, Sure it's an older technology but the CEO decided either i3 + Integrated HD or Core 2 Duo + Good graphics. Plus the 10 hour battery is supposedly nearly true. A blogger named Veronica Belmont tweeted she used her MacBook Pro at a coffee shop for 5 hours and there was still battery left and she hadn't fully charged it the night before. 1080p plays fine for me on youtube so..


@cameldude



> Ok sorry i think i dragged on a little there. Ok my final thoughts, if as i said you are not going to be using it for anything other than office/iwork and internet than go for mac, anything else go for the asus, there good enough for you.


[/QUOTE] Why would the Asus be needed because the 320M is perfectly capable for some games. It's the most advanced integrated graphics chip platform out there. Plus if he wants to do video editing the asus should be out of the picture along with other PCs because nothing has the ease of use as Final Cut Express if he wants to go that Pro. But iMovie 09 should be fine.


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## imaginaryD

for the record I most likely will not be doing very much video editing, maybe the odd guitar video for youtube, but that's about it, nothing hardcore


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## bkribbs

If you have the money, I would go mac, as I really like macs, and have a good experience with them. If you don't, I would stick with the Asus. Just my opinion.


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## PabloTeK

Metallica17 said:


> If your using it for just school, save your money and don't get the mac. They aren't good anyways. The laptop you give has everything better about it over the mac, and the mac is still more expensive. Just go with the Asus.



Please don't post misinformation KTHX.

The Mac is a better day to day machine because unlike the Asus it's been designed with professional use in mind, I use mine most days for a few hours and it's worked for over a year with 0 battery degredation. My HP on the other hand has been used on and off for 2 years and now has a battery life of... 5 minutes. You can install Windows if you REALLY want to on a Mac (People seem to thinks Macs and PC's are mutually exclusive) but all the software most people need is on OSX.

On the iWork issue, I prefer iWork myself to Office for Mac and the whole set of MS applications which seem to be made of fail and old Italian car parts.


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## Drenlin

The Asus is going to have higher quality internals, and probably a tougher shell as well, knowing Asus. Also has a better CPU. Also uses windows, which will be more convenient for a college student, IMO...simply because most other people use it too. Software compatibility and all that. Has 1-year of accident protection, the usefulness of which is obvious. "You break it, we'll fix it for free...."

The mac will have better battery life, a more powerful GPU, lots of smaller features, and Apple's customer support. (Not that Asus's is bad...far from it. But, Apple's is really awesome.) Uses OS/X, which is easier to maintain, better on the battery, and doesn't degrade as fast as Windows if not properly maintenanced.


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## PabloTeK

Drenlin said:


> The Asus is going to have higher quality internals, and probably a tougher shell as well, knowing Asus. Also has a better CPU. Also uses windows, which will be more convenient for a college student, IMO...simply because most other people use it too. Software compatibility and all that. Has 1-year of accident protection, the usefulness of which is obvious. "You break it, we'll fix it for free...."
> 
> The mac will have better battery life, a more powerful GPU, lots of smaller features, and Apple's customer support. (Not that Asus's is bad...far from it. But, Apple's is really awesome.) Uses OS/X, which is easier to maintain, better on the battery, and doesn't degrade as fast as Windows if not properly maintenanced.



Actually the Mac is an aluminium unibody which seems in my experience to be better than the old body-on-frame methods most laptops use. The Apple internals are also off the shelf parts (taking apart my external drive which houses my old MBP HDD I can note it's a Hitachi drive) apart from the logic board.

I had a similar choice. I made it and I've never ever looked back.




Though I do wish Apple would make their updates smaller.


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## Drenlin

^ The Asus has an aluminum frame as well, and knowing Asus, the lid is probably much more solid than the Apple's, which is rather flimsy.


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## PabloTeK

Drenlin said:


> ^ The Asus has an aluminum frame as well, and knowing Asus, the lid is probably much more solid than the Apple's, which is rather flimsy.



I dunno I use my laptop a lot and the lid feels solid enough, more solid than the HP though but then again I suppose melted cheese is more solid than that POS...


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## Drenlin

Haha, true that. As far as corner to corner flex goes they're fairly solid, but push down near the Apple logo...every one I've used so far has had a lot of flex there.


Also, nobody's mentioned the screens yet...oops. Apples use IPS screens, the main advantage of which, at this point, is the ability to cram a lot of resolution into a small space. They also have great contrast and color reproduction...though both of these laptops will be well above average in that respect. The apple will probably be better though.


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## mihir

jjsevdt said:


> I'm not really sure what you're basing this on?  I'm sure you've had years of experience to which you base you're claim [Said in sarcastic tone while noting you're only 16]
> 
> Macs are a bit more expensive if you look at raw computing power, but that's not what they sell.  They're selling you a product that's going to last for years on end.  They're selling you the ability to take you're laptop to any Apple Store and not have to ship it in the mail and get lost in the shuffle.  The battery life on the Macs is excellent.  They actually get close to what they claim.  If you get a 12cell battery it's usually bigger and heavier.  Try to find a laptop that delivers the usability and power of a Mac in the same size.  It won't happen.  I searched for a month before purchasing.  Size and weight were big considerations due to traveling on a deployment.
> 
> As one person pointed out his laptops are disposible, but Macs actually have a resell value and you can usually get $1000 off a used MBP.
> 
> Windows 7 is a great operating system.  I love it.  I usually keep it on my MBP as well.  There's a lot of things that Microsoft has derived from OS X.
> 
> Am I being biased because I own a Mac?  You may think so, but I'm just trying to point out the benifits and hate when people flat out say Macs suck without substantiating their claim.


+1
Macs are always considered expensive but they are worth each and every penny.
What apple does the best is design the interface of its devices and I find the mac os x really awesome i use windows 7 only because of compatibility I love using the mac OS x much more fun you just need to get used to it.

Apple keeps it functional and simple in usablity
the looks of the macs are also killer


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## Cameldude

i think you might have seen my biased view away from the macs and towards the Windows based pc, just for the simple fact that Mac, rip you off massively. appologies but it is just i am a bit biased, i mean look at my laptop below, i bought that for 1100 dollars, its got full HD screen, i5, 4 gb DDR3, nice sleek design, portable. Blu ray player. tell me how much a mac with all these would cost, 1500$, 2000$... My computer would probably run those programs you mention (obviously the Final cut would not work since it is only for mac, but i mean in general for those programs available for both, or if that program was available for windows) much smoother and faster than the mac that was suggested. but i try not to say that windows based pcs are better than macs, macs are usefull for other things too..., you just have to see that for the same price you can get a kick ass Windows PC, that would run all your mac programs much better.
But getting back to the subject, i guess you are right imaginaryD, and as i said before i think the mac would fit you well. 
and in the answer to your question the i5 has 4 processors (although recently they started to have 2, as explained in the wikipedia link), where i3 and core 2 duo have 2, the i3 processor is a faster processor. you can sort of see the difference here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core, read down you will get, the thing to look out here is the cache, its L3, not L2 and more of it. in my opinion i really saw the difference between core 2 duo (i had core 2 duo 2.4) and the i5, which i think is not a surprise. so if money is not an issue get the i5 processor with the mac. just to add even if you go for the dual core, try and get the one with an SSD, will definately be better. 
PS: iGeekOFComedy i agree if you want to use the Final Cut Express program you would need a mac (lol, since it is only for mac) but i did not say which asus to take. Me as a windows boy, if choice was between mac and equally prices Windows PC, it would have to be the windows PC, since it would kick mac bottom with specs. and there are other good programs to use for video editing.


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## Cameldude

mihir said:


> +1
> Apple keeps it functional and simple in usablity
> the looks of the macs are also killer



Exactly what they want you to think, D


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## DMGrier

+1

I have used a friend's mac before and didn't find it that easy to use, not considering that with windows just about everything is in your start menu. Plus if you do any reading online you will find the windows 7 is extremely close in performance to OSX, My laptop multi task better then my friend's macbook but being I have a i5 I do have the faster computer (he paid the same price for his mac though). Even apple has there quality problem, if you don't believe me bing/google "macbook logic board failure". Some of the people who used apple before they went to building computer's hardware like the other companies have been complaining about loss of quality. All computers have there problems. I have no problem with apple other then there high prices and the users who are apart of there apple crazy cult. Most apple users I find will not admit to the pro's of windows based systems and the issue's with the OSX based computers. There is even a apple church these days where steve jobs has his own bible.

The i3 are better then the core 2 duo and the i5 and extremely better then the core 2 duo.


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## PabloTeK

Cameldude said:


> i think you might have seen my biased view away from the macs and towards the Windows based pc, just for the simple fact that Mac, rip you off massively.



>_>

*tlarkin*, your thread is here!


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## mkeyfoo34

Metalica 17
What a stupid statement to say Macs are no good, obviously you have never used one
to it's full intention
I have used every Mac since the old MacPlus
Best computer produced bar none !you couldn't do good graphics on a PC.


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## mkeyfoo34

You lot talk a load of crap about Macs.....get your facts right don't talk rubbish


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## Cameldude

mkeyfoo34 said:


> Metalica 17
> Best computer produced bar none !you couldn't do good graphics on a PC.



Metalica 17, lol, this is not a fact, this is an opinion, a normative statement that you believe to be true. Like some people who use macs believe what you said here, but it is just a thought, an opinion. trully if you have a good Windows based PC, you could outdo any high end macs with graphics. 

farily, also funny, This is not true either - "The first myth is that Macs can’t do everything a PC can do. This just isn’t true, especially with the newest technology Mac has been using, such as the Intel Core Duo processor found in new iMacs and MacBooks.", firstly i would like to attack you on this statement on something you call newest technology, Intel core 2 duo was developed in 2006, not very new. i would have agreed with your opinion if you said something like, intel i5 processor, and the use of SSDs in macs. now that is newest technology available. Also you say macs can do everything that pc can. i tend to disagree on this note, and tend to say myself that Macs can do some things that Windows based pc's can't, and windows based pcs can do things that Macs can't. this would be a more factual statement.

Quote from you again, "the popular belief that PCs are less intuitive, prone to viruses, and more difficult to use and upgrade are all based in fact", hmm, perhaps agree here for now, but Macs can still get trojans, malware, spyware, at least pc users (or most of them) are protected against this with antiviruse programs, some mac users tend to be less protected since they think they can't get infected. well they can. (i am not saying that macs do not have added protection, they do and i know this) PC is a personal computer, not software, thats why i call "them" windows based pc's, if you are talking about intuitive OS, then Windows 7, will match the latest OS from Mac, no problems. i think now it is down to preferences as you rightly suggest. 
What i am trying to point out, and with use of facts "...Mac, rip you off massively..., i mean look at my laptop below, i bought that for 1100 dollars, its got full HD screen, i5, 4 gb DDR3, nice sleek design, portable. Blu ray player. tell me how much a mac with all these would cost, 1500$, 2000$"
you are not a rational person if you don't think that Mac is a rip off, it a good rip off though, i think if apple removed their brand it would cost less than current windows based pc's. 

On the note of PC (personal Computer) i know that people have called all windows based a PC and Macs are Macs. but in my view (this is an opinion, but i believe it is to be true) Personal computer is just a way of saying that the computer is for your use privately. those adverts that apple made PC v Mac, they just did not want to write Microsoft Windows. 
I think i dragged on here. please do post more "Factual" comparisons. and if you are comparing laptops, macpro, please do compare on price, so if Mac costs 1500$ then compare a 1500 $ Windows based pc. and there you would really see the difference. 

I do realise we are going off topic here yet again, sorry for that, main poster. 

Good day sirs/ladies (if there are any )


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## iGeekOFComedy

Woah, Find me a HD laptop with a IPS screen. Then come back. You know Macs today DO have i5  / i7 Processors but Apple decided either fast processor or better graphics in their 13" MacBook Pro line. SSDs are options on Macs up to 512GB SSD sans the Air It's not really a rip of because they have other fancy technologies in their computers like a internal IR Sensor, Magnetic Power Supply, SMS technology for clumsy people and the battery life is almost as Apple advertises. Sure it's not user replaceable but for people with laptops post a webcam photo of all your batteries, I'm sure only a Percentage of PC users have backup batteries

Also: 



> 1100 dollars, its got full HD screen, i5, 4 gb DDR3, nice sleek design, portable. Blu ray player. tell me how much a mac with all these would cost, 1500$, 2000$"



OK 13" MacBook Pro

1280x800 Screen 16.10 sometimes better than HD because people need vertical resolution for computing and this is IPS technology

Ok, Sure it's i5, This has a 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo
It's made out of a single piece of Aluminium, 0.95" Thick, Superdrive SLOT Load, Sure it's not blueray but if you live in downloading digitally iTunes has a HD Movie store.  Also could you link us to said laptop  

Yes your laptop has better performance to be sitted at a desk, Now on the go you will run into all sorts of problems with batteries, You would probably get 3 Hours if your lucky on that computer.

@ mkeyfoo3 you can do good graphics on PC with aftereffects and photoshop now if your talking about final cut then yes, But PCs do have better GPUS sans intergrated graphics.

This may not apply to every user but @ OP look at the threads in the laptop section and count how many threads include: Wheres the driver, Overheating, etc.


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## mtb211

man id def for the asus,  I do love macs tho, just way to expensive for what you get


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## DMGrier

I actually was walking around best buy yesterday and there was a 2000$ macbook pro and the only difference between my computer and the mac was it had a better graphics card.  I only paid 999$. I do think apple computers are nice but you are paying for the name. I'm not saying the mac dont have a few nice features but nothing worth there price. And I cant think of anything a mac can do that a pc can't. They both have basic video/photo editing software. And they both can run photo shop and pro tools for music production. Honestly the difference is a preference in OS. Yes you do see more problems with PC on this forum cause there  are more PC users on this forum. Go to a apple forum and you will see them have as many issue. I became a member on a apple forum when I considered getting a apple computer and every person who responded to my post said that there pc's that they paid the same amount for as there mac where as just as good in quality and last just as long. It is preference, and a question of a persons budget for what they want out of a computer. People who do like PC where the ones who bought a 400$ Toshiba during the years of vista and wonder why it had problems.


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## cciotify

I started uni with a white MacBook and personally, I'm so glad I did. There really aren't any compatibility issues, iWork is an easy suite to use (except maybe exporting documents, but one you get the hang of it, it's easy), and if you're not too into gaming, MacBook Pro should have all the things you need. 

If you're into recording videos and/or music, the GarageBand application on the Macbook (which comes as standard, for which there is no PC equivalent) is pretty awesome. Also, I find that the battery life of a MacBook Pro is superior (having used both Asus and MacBook Pro). 

Definitely recommend a MacBook!


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## Cameldude

OK here we go iGeekOFComedy
IPS technology, i know what it is, but on my laptop i really have no probelms with viewing angles. be that vertical or horizontal. i can see the screen in its upmost. 
Next i think you misunderstood me, i was telling farily that if he mentioned the i5 and the SSD, then his argument would be more productive. Saying that at the time of my posting i was trying to make his argument better, knowing that Macs do come with i5, and the SSD's. i think there is no argument there.
I will skip your very nice comparison and will talk about it at the end.

"This may not apply to every user but @ OP look at the threads in the laptop section and count how many threads include: Wheres the driver, Overheating, etc. "
Hmm, with windwos 7, the driver problem is gone, ok not for all devices, but for 99.99%., windows update will find the drivers and install them for you. overheating, just for those who try to push their computers too far from their actual performace. 

Now i bought my computer in Russia, but here is a translation from the Sony.ru website using google translate, http://translate.google.com/transla...//www.sony.ru/product/vn-e-series/vpceb1z1r-b

Lets get to the topic of comparison:
Fancy staff: internal IR Sensor, haha, ok maybe HP has this thing
Magnetic Power Supply, wow, really neccesary
SMS technology - all latest laptops will have such technologies. 
battery life - now here is a topic on discussion. i would be insane to argue that my laptop has better or similar battery life. i accept defeat on this one, but if you really want to compare, as you so magically said, my computer sits on a desk, if you look at other laptops, windows based, some of them have similar or even greater battery life for less, money, especially for those traveling type. now i would say when you are watching HD material on a Mac timewise the battery would go down, i do not have any facts on how long it will last, but i would guess the battery life would go down at least to 3 hours. 
Superdrive SLOT Load - so what?
single piece of Aluminium, 0.95" Thick, ok very nice there. 
Sure it's not blu ray but if you live in downloading digitally iTunes has a HD Movie store - i laughed at this. 
ok, i did not know about HD itunes, i have not seen it in UK, or Russia, i know i can download HD TV shows at 720p, but did not know about movies. 

ok i hope you agree on this - Macs can do some things that Windows based pc's can't, and windows based pcs can do things that Macs can't. I am just saying that Windows based pc's are better in some areas, and Macs are better in some other areas. Battery life, yes, the rest i am not so sure. that IPS technology, hmm, as i said i see my screen at angles, no problems at all. and i really do not need more battery life than what i have now. i think normal macs would have something like 3-4 hours hard use, while mine has around 2-3.5 hours hard use. ok aa bit of difference, but mac could watch a film, and i could watch a film. i could watch a blu ray, mac can watch an HD film. this is all on battery. 
13" laptops which are windows based, also have long battery life
i shall say i would end argument here, but i know that it will not. Some people prefer Macs, some people prefer Windows based PCs, neither me nor you have the right to say which is better. i will acept defeat, since i am in a suit and you are in a t-shirt (link to the PC v Mac advert) trying to make joke man, a joke. D


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## tlarkin

PabloTeK said:


> >_>
> 
> *tlarkin*, your thread is here!



I've been lurking, no time to argue with people who won't use and/or acknowledge facts.  However, if you ever work retail or a job that involves some sort of sales you are trained to take yourself out of the picture and quality your customer for their needs.

People tend to get too personal.  A Mac is a tool.  A PC is a tool.  Different tools for different jobs, different preference on what tools you want to use.  Those of you that say Mac is non intuitive, how long have you used one?

I can list the plethora of reasons why I really dislike Windows, all of my reasons are very valid, but to the end user they mean nothing.  Do you think end users know what a self contained application even is?  Or the registry for that matter?  How about Kernel Hooks?  Or direct kernel access via driver APIs, which is a still current and HUGE security risk.  Or the fact I started some sentences in this paragraph with a conjunction, which is not grammatically correct?

No, end users give two craps about it.  I have been using Macs since about 1999 and was forced to use them.  I was forced as part of my job and I hated them.  However, after using them for 11 years now I can honestly say I prefer them.  For many valid and technical reasons.  Ones which I will not go into because I am just tired of the debate, especially with people who have no knowledge of what they are talking about.

I wrote this a long time ago, and is out dated, but it is a starting point

http://www.computerforum.com/120762-macintosh-platform.html

I eventually (time permitting) will do an official write up for this site I just have not had time to make a new one.  My opinion is that Apple makes the best laptops you can buy, period.  My opinion is biased, and it is biased as a long time power user, System's Administrator, and amateur software developer.  Some people hate Macs, and their reasons are as simple as, "I just don't like them."  Other people play the elitist role.  I have a Windows box at home for 2 reasons.  1) games 2) to stay current.  Otherwise, I, after using computers for nearly 20 years, am starting to loathe Windows compared to every other OS in the universe I have tested and tried.  With the exception of Microsoft's back end.  Their server side stuff is, well, it is pretty damn good actually.


----------



## Cameldude

"I can list the plethora of reasons why I really dislike Windows, all of my reasons are very valid, but to the end user they mean nothing. Do you think end users know what a self contained application even is? Or the registry for that matter? How about Kernel Hooks? Or direct kernel access via driver APIs, which is a still current and HUGE security risk."

i hope you are not saying that Macs are safer, because they are not, only recently Apple issued an update (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/security/358837/apple-slammed-for-stealth-security-update), meaning that macs are not as safe as people perseive them to be, i suppose that Kernel is perhaps indeed a security risk. 
I think the argument in this thread is by end users, so some of us do give a crap. 
I would really love to see your reasons why you hate windows, lets not talk about any other version other than Windows 7. 
OK and my main opinion, which i try to stick with is, DO not compare Microsoft (windows) and Macs, you just can;t compare them, it is impossible. there is nothing that you can say that would make your argument in comparing Apple and Microsoft legit. Microsoft Software maker, apple computer manufacturer, ok they do have OS, then compare OS to OS only nothing else, no computer specs and any fancy staff that comes with it. on the basic things, i am talking from as much as i know, having spent more time using Windows, you can;t say that Windows 7, is worse than Mac OS, at least it is on the same level. 
you cannot say Mac's aren/t a rip off, if you strip them down there is nothing there that stands out massively, yes it has toys, wow, amazing...
I understand you have experience, i respect that. and i can't wait for you argunment, because while you concentrate on Windows disadvantages somewhere out there there will be someone who will concentrate on Macs disadvantages, in the end as i said and you said, it is down to preferences , said by you "Different tools for different jobs, different preference on what tools you want to use"
Said by me "Some people prefer Macs, some people prefer Windows based PCs, neither me nor you have the right to say which is better"


----------



## tlarkin

Cameldude said:


> "I can list the plethora of reasons why I really dislike Windows, all of my reasons are very valid, but to the end user they mean nothing. Do you think end users know what a self contained application even is? Or the registry for that matter? How about Kernel Hooks? Or direct kernel access via driver APIs, which is a still current and HUGE security risk."
> 
> i hope you are not saying that Macs are safer, because they are not, only recently Apple issued an update (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/security/358837/apple-slammed-for-stealth-security-update), meaning that macs are not as safe as people perseive them to be, i suppose that Kernel is perhaps indeed a security risk.
> I think the argument in this thread is by end users, so some of us do give a crap.
> I would really love to see your reasons why you hate windows, lets not talk about any other version other than Windows 7.
> OK and my main opinion, which i try to stick with is, DO not compare Microsoft (windows) and Macs, you just can;t compare them, it is impossible. there is nothing that you can say that would make your argument in comparing Apple and Microsoft legit. Microsoft Software maker, apple computer manufacturer, ok they do have OS, then compare OS to OS only nothing else, no computer specs and any fancy staff that comes with it. on the basic things, i am talking from as much as i know, having spent more time using Windows, you can;t say that Windows 7, is worse than Mac OS, at least it is on the same level.
> you cannot say Mac's aren/t a rip off, if you strip them down there is nothing there that stands out massively, yes it has toys, wow, amazing...
> I understand you have experience, i respect that. and i can't wait for you argunment, because while you concentrate on Windows disadvantages somewhere out there there will be someone who will concentrate on Macs disadvantages, in the end as i said and you said, it is down to preferences , said by you "Different tools for different jobs, different preference on what tools you want to use"
> Said by me "Some people prefer Macs, some people prefer Windows based PCs, neither me nor you have the right to say which is better"



Notice how I said Microsoft and not PC when stating what I did.  You know why?  Well, of course you don't know you cannot read my mind so I shall inform you.  It is because of several reasons, but mainly because Linux as has 2% market share of PCs sold, and Unix has less.  Sun, well, Sun might as well be compared to Mac since they also sell closed platform systems, write their own OS and design their own hardware.   Though Solaris is now available open source for a few years now.  So really when you are comparing a Mac to a PC you are comparing the two most commonly purchased consumer computers.  Second reason is every PC I own (3 of them) with exception of 1, runs Linux over Windows.  

I agree, you cannot really compare Apples to Oranges, but in a discussion like this you are going to have to.  Apple now owns like 24% of consumer market share in the USA.  That is strictly consumer, not world market share which Apple is roughly 8% at world market share.   

Normally, when someone asks why should I get a PC over a Mac, or why should I get a Lexus over an Acura?  You basically make a list of pros and cons and compare them, even though the engineering is much different.  Then you make your decision.

The quick reasons why I really dislike Windows, and most of this has been happening since the 9x Kernel...

1)  Registry - why on earth would you build an OS with a single point of failure?  It is clunky, it is hard to read, it is damn right annoying.  give me config files any day over a registry.

2)  All users run as root (this actually changed with Vista/7 - but not totally) which means escalated code doesn't need authentication to high jack your system.  Hence, why Windows has script kiddies as hackers, and every other OS doesn't (for the most part generalization to some extent).

3)  Lack of self contained apps, see #1.  If I have an app crash I don't want it crashing the registry thus crashing the whole damn system.

4)  Lack of POSIX or any other standards.  Though this is part of the security which goes into how I think an OS should be.   Owner : group : everyone, and while MS has shifted more towards a Unix-like POSIX system over their last two releases, they are not quite there yet.

5)  Security Access Control, I want to punch Windows in the face when this annoying message pops up.

6)  Security - Windows boxes will NEVER be secure EVER as long as they allow things like drivers direct access to the kernel and applications kernel hooks.  Giant security firms have caught onto this and Symantec for example makes billions of dollars a year making an insecure product slightly more secure.  You are being played, and trust me, every giant corporation plays nice with each other.  There are kick backs and money being exchanged.  Symantec knows that MS cannot fix these known security holes or it may hurt  their biz, so they lobby MS to keep them.   If go back and read about when MS was going to drop kernel access from everything outside the shell and ask for authentication there were several giant software companies that said if MS does that they will drop support.

7)  Total resource hog.  Every other OS performs better on less hardware, this is most likely due to many things but the bulk of it is legacy support.  Stop supporting software from the 90s, force your customers to upgrade, drop the old legacy code, stream line your OS and make it faster and more efficient.  

I could go on and on but I don't have the time.


----------



## DMGrier

tlarkin,
You have many good point's but one, I must ask have you used 7? You made the statement that it is a system hog, It is actually runs very efficient. Many friends of mine have macbook's and from what I have seen when it comes to boot up and multi tasking I have seen no difference between the two.

everyone,
Apple is more secure then windows cause it is based on a UNIX os, but I have seen mac get viruses still.  If we want to argue security and light weight then we better start arguing Linux. And with ubuntu, Linux couldn't get any easier or user friendly. plus it has a ton of software support these days and they have made them easy to find.


----------



## tlarkin

DMGrier said:


> tlarkin,
> You have many good point's but one, I must ask have you used 7? You made the statement that it is a system hog, It is actually runs very efficient. Many friends of mine have macbook's and from what I have seen when it comes to boot up and multi tasking I have seen no difference between the two.



Yes I have windows 7.  Yes it is a vast improvement on resources over Vista.   However, you compare it to any other modern OS and the other OS will do the same with less.  Linux + Compiz and Beryl will run faster on lesser hardware than a Windows 7 box will.  I am not saying you are better off throwing your computer in a lake than use Windows, I am saying that compared to every other OS out there, it is a resource hog.  Why can't MS make it better?  



> everyone,
> Apple is more secure then windows cause it is based on a UNIX os, but I have seen mac get viruses still.  If we want to argue security and light weight then we better start arguing Linux. And with ubuntu, Linux couldn't get any easier or user friendly. plus it has a ton of software support these days and they have made them easy to find.



There are zero OS X viruses in the wild.  There are a few social engineering attacks where malicious software acts as legit software and end up being Trojan Horses, however every OS is subjected to that.  You cannot build an OS that will stop an end user from installing something stupid on their computer.


----------



## diduknowthat

What college are you going to? I know at my college the majority of students uses Macs. They're VERY nice machines. If it wasn't for all the engineering programs I'd have to run (which you can run on a mac with boocamp), I would have gotten one too.


----------



## Blurredman

Macintosh... PC, all the same


----------



## DMGrier

How can you say there no viruses out there for mac's? From what I have seen one of my friend get on his mac it seemed to be a virus to me considering he did not run any 3rd party software that might have messed up his os. I am just curious what proof you have.


----------



## tlarkin

DMGrier said:


> How can you say there no viruses out there for mac's? From what I have seen one of my friend get on his mac it seemed to be a virus to me considering he did not run any 3rd party software that might have messed up his os. I am just curious what proof you have.



The burden of proof is upon the person making the claim.  Find me a documented in the wild virus for OS X.  Viruses self propagate from system to system.  The only known malicious software for Macs are root kits and Trojan Horses, which are installed by either 1) downloaded pirated software with Trojan pre-installed or 2) social engineered to fool the user into installing it.

There were a couple of webkit and java exploits but java affects all systems since it runs on every OS and webkit only affected Safari which was patched, but details were never released on the exact info of said exploit.

Again, please show me an in wild virus for OS X, and I will gladly change my mind if you have solid proof.


----------



## DMGrier

are you talking about this?

http://www.macrumors.com/2006/02/16/the-first-mac-os-x-virus-a-new-os-x-trojan/


----------



## Cameldude

A quote from my friend
I once heard was that using a windows pc was like living in a bad area of town with big locks and metal bars on the windows, and that using a mac was like living in the country in the middle of nowhere with nobody near you but without any kind of locks to secure your house


----------



## tlarkin

DMGrier said:


> are you talking about this?
> 
> http://www.macrumors.com/2006/02/16/the-first-mac-os-x-virus-a-new-os-x-trojan/



That is not a virus, that is a social engineering attack.  It tricks you to install something over ichat, and is proof of concept.   I said show me a real virus in the wild that self propagates for OS X.  If you want to talk proof of concept, Windows itself is a vessel for viruses.

If you really want to get into the nitty gritty of OS X Security, the google MOAB or month of apple bugs when security experts were ripping apart OS X.  No one has been able to win the 10,000 dollar hack the mac contest with out using malicious code from a software or website.


----------



## Cameldude

tlarkin said:


> Notice how I said Microsoft and not PC when stating what I did.  You know why?  Well, of course you don't know you cannot read my mind so I shall inform you. ...  So really when you are comparing a Mac to a PC you are comparing the two most commonly purchased consumer computers.  Second reason is every PC I own (3 of them) with exception of 1, runs Linux over Windows.



Hmm , well you are so far comparing not computers but Software, but generally yes when you tal about Mac and a PC you compare the technical specs of the laptop.



tlarkin said:


> 5) Security Access Control, I want to punch Windows in the face when this annoying message pops up.



I agree with you on most points you made, and i would be stupid to disagree on those points, but this one i highlighted above, if you want you could turn it off, plus this is for your protection, any operation that windows does not say the computer can do will mentioned by this SAC. i think it is a very good function. it only pops up when you try to install something or doing something that requires admin privileges. 



tlarkin said:


> Total resource hog. Every other OS performs better on less hardware, this is most likely due to many things but the bulk of it is legacy support. Stop supporting software from the 90s, force your customers to upgrade, drop the old legacy code, stream line your OS and make it faster and more efficient.



Disagree, Windows 7 performs as good as Mac OS, or some people may say better. I can tel lyou from first hand experience that Windows 7, worked on my laptop from 2002, and now that laptop to some degree flys. so saying that Windows 7 is total resource hog is very very wrong. i would agree that before windows 7 it was, there is no question there, but windows 7 is very very different. 

Next point i have read on a bit and some people talks about viruses, i also have not heard about any actual viruses on Mac, but i think many people would be confused since all the "antiviruses" programs do protect you agains adware, malware, trojans, spyware, so on. although mac may be not be prone to Virus attacks, but it is definetaly prone to trojans, spyware, the rest. and while you so mentioned apple growing in size, hackers start to realise that they gain more from hacking Macs, and then eveyrthing would come out, How really safe are Macs. You say that there was a challenge to hack Mac, if Apple hides an improtant update bulliten, what else do you think they are hiding from us. how much information do you think we, you included do not know about the actual security of both Macs, and Windows. at least we know the risks with Windows and can protect ourselves from it, while macs are kept protected by apple, how long wil that last. 

Also you cannot compare windows and mac to others, Linux and so on, ok in the same market, different segments. of course linux would be better running since not using that many resources. linux is not safe compared with microsoft, i read a news articel about how a massive backdoor ( do not really rememebr the details but it was huge) was open into one of the linuxes brother os, i cannot find the article but surely you would remember something like that


----------



## PabloTeK

Cameldude said:


> Disagree, Windows 7 performs as good as Mac OS, or some people may say better. I can tel lyou from first hand experience that Windows 7, worked on my laptop from 2002, and now that laptop to some degree flys. so saying that Windows 7 is total resource hog is very very wrong. i would agree that before windows 7 it was, there is no question there, but windows 7 is very very different.



No. No no no no no. I've got a Mac and a Windows box and despite the Windows machine being much more powerful the Mac is quicker to start, shut down and doesn't lock up whenever I do a lot of file ops at once. Windows manages to bog down over time whereas OSX doesn't, partially thanks to the registry which is such a mess!


----------



## Cameldude

Do not know what you are talking about i ever since windows 7, have never had a probem, while running games, opeing files. using a lot of resources. my computer starts up in about 45 seconds. i think that is very fast.


----------



## PabloTeK

Cameldude said:


> Do not know what you are talking about i ever since windows 7, have never had a probem, while running games, opeing files. using a lot of resources. my computer starts up in about 45 seconds. i think that is very fast.



I did a test with my Mac and my PC, no password to boot etc and pressed the power button on each at the same time. The Mac took 47 seconds, the PC 2 minutes 3 seconds, even then Windows took time to get cranked up fully because it was barely usable.


----------



## tlarkin

Try running Windows 7 on 1 gig of RAM versus OS X or Linux on 1 gig of RAM and see which OS performs better.  All my desktops at work have 1 gig of RAM in them (but my boss just ordered me some 4gig upgrades), and they are all iMacs and they run snappy.  Even with 1gig of RAM.  Windows boxes cannot do that, therefore they are the worst OS when it comes to handling resources.



> Next point i have read on a bit and some people talks about viruses, i also have not heard about any actual viruses on Mac, but i think many people would be confused since all the "antiviruses" programs do protect you agains adware, malware, trojans, spyware, so on. although mac may be not be prone to Virus attacks, but it is definetaly prone to trojans, spyware, the rest. and while you so mentioned apple growing in size, hackers start to realise that they gain more from hacking Macs, and then eveyrthing would come out, How really safe are Macs. You say that there was a challenge to hack Mac, if Apple hides an improtant update bulliten, what else do you think they are hiding from us. how much information do you think we, you included do not know about the actual security of both Macs, and Windows. at least we know the risks with Windows and can protect ourselves from it, while macs are kept protected by apple, how long wil that last.
> 
> Also you cannot compare windows and mac to others, Linux and so on, ok in the same market, different segments. of course linux would be better running since not using that many resources. linux is not safe compared with microsoft, i read a news articel about how a massive backdoor ( do not really rememebr the details but it was huge) was open into one of the linuxes brother os, i cannot find the article but surely you would remember something like that



So, you would rather them post the exact security loop hole publicly like MS, and then watch script kiddies take control of all un-patched machines?  At best your point just doesn't quite hold as you are eluding to a big what if on Apple's end.  Where as we already know the issues with Windows.   Do you know how many zombie botnets are out there because of Microsoft's poor security policies?  I will give Microsoft credit that they do release updates and patches in a very timely manner, but in retrospect they have had a lot of practice.

Gonna need some citations on your claims to Linux security.  There was a huge security issue with DNS a while back ago, but that affected every system since every system uses DNS.


----------



## DMGrier

PabloTeK said:


> I did a test with my Mac and my PC, no password to boot etc and pressed the power button on each at the same time. The Mac took 47 seconds, the PC 2 minutes 3 seconds, even then Windows took time to get cranked up fully because it was barely usable.



I would get your windows machine checked, I use to run windows in the computer in my signature and it never took longer then 45 seconds. I am not joking, if it takes over two minutes to boot there is something really wrong with your computer.

That might explain why you where able to bog it down, I have ran anti-virus scans, WMP, video converts, Internet explorer, and small games all at once on the laptop below in my signature when it use to run windows and still had cpu/ram to run another task or two.

When cnet did a comparison of osx snow leopard  vs windows 7, they actually complimented how fast it open programs where as osx they said a few times they still got that spinning beach ball. And last time I checked cnet was a pretty good site to get your facts.

I am not saying that OSX can't multi task better then Windows, I would have to be stupid cause of the fact it is a unix based OS, What I am saying is 7 is a far improvement for windows and the apple users on this forum treat it like we are still talking about Vista. The apple users on macforums approve more of 7 then you do.

tlarkin,
Plus I do feel Linux is a better OS then OSX or windows, especially since ubuntu included that ubuntu software center to there OS. It was always easy to use but now linux users have easy to install software support. I was wondering as far as security goes how does OSX compare to the linux distro's?


----------



## tlarkin

DMGrier said:


> tlarkin,
> Plus I do feel Linux is a better OS then OSX or windows, especially since ubuntu included that ubuntu software center to there OS. It was always easy to use but now linux users have easy to install software support. I was wondering as far as security goes how does OSX compare to the linux distro's?



It is the same standards, same POSIX, the only differences are vendor specific and this is true of all *nix OSes.  Like SuSe Linux and Redhat Linux (enterprise versions) are going to have different vendor specific things about them.  However, for the most part they all operate the same under-the-hood.


----------



## Manta

jjsevdt said:


> I'm not really sure what you're basing this on?  I'm sure you've had years of experience to which you base you're claim [Said in sarcastic tone while noting you're only 16]
> 
> Macs are a bit more expensive if you look at raw computing power, but that's not what they sell.  They're selling you a product that's going to last for years on end.  They're selling you the ability to take you're laptop to any Apple Store and not have to ship it in the mail and get lost in the shuffle.  The battery life on the Macs is excellent.  They actually get close to what they claim.  If you get a 12cell battery it's usually bigger and heavier.  Try to find a laptop that delivers the usability and power of a Mac in the same size.  It won't happen.  I searched for a month before purchasing.  Size and weight were big considerations due to traveling on a deployment.
> 
> As one person pointed out his laptops are disposible, but Macs actually have a resell value and you can usually get $1000 off a used MBP.
> 
> Windows 7 is a great operating system.  I love it.  I usually keep it on my MBP as well.  There's a lot of things that Microsoft has derived from OS X.
> 
> Am I being biased because I own a Mac?  You may think so, but I'm just trying to point out the benifits and hate when people flat out say Macs suck without substantiating their claim.



You raise very good points. Another, is that macs cannot get viruses (only 1 known virus for macs)

I've had my macbook for about 3 years and its still great.
For the money, it is definitely worth it.


----------



## Cameldude

tlarkin said:


> Try running Windows 7 on 1 gig of RAM versus OS X or Linux on 1 gig of RAM and see which OS performs better



The laptop i talked about does have centrino M 1.5 Ghz processor and 1.5 Gb of ram, start times around 1 minute, a bit more some times. and application open very fast considering the ram, and processor. i do not think Mac os would run any better. i gave that laptop to my friend and i think he installed linux on it, D

also to the guy who said he did a test, khe khe, ahm, that 45 seconds i mentioned, that is from hitting the power button, till complete load in, i even have a password that i typed in. after 45 seconds the ocmputer if fully operational. you should really check your system. My old big computer, with 2.5 GB of ram DDR1, and Pentium 4, starts up around 1 minute 15 seconds. sometimes a bit faster some times a bit slower. 



tlarkin said:


> So, you would rather them post the exact security loop hole publicly like MS, and then watch script kiddies take control of all un-patched machines? At best your point just doesn't quite hold as you are eluding to a big what if on Apple's end. Where as we already know the issues with Windows. Do you know how many zombie botnets are out there because of Microsoft's poor security policies? I will give Microsoft credit that they do release updates and patches in a very timely manner, but in retrospect they have had a lot of practice.



If Mac os is so good what is the problem, you just admited that you think that they might have some loop holes. and as i said we better know about it so we can protect ourselves.


----------



## Cameldude

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/22/security_report_windows_vs_linux/


----------



## tlarkin

Cameldude said:


> The laptop i talked about does have centrino M 1.5 Ghz processor and 1.5 Gb of ram, start times around 1 minute, a bit more some times. and application open very fast considering the ram, and processor. i do not think Mac os would run any better. i gave that laptop to my friend and i think he installed linux on it, D



What I am saying is the OS X and perform as equal as Windows 7, but with less resources.  OS X has a lot of fancy OpenGL stuff going on in their desktop environment all the time, and Windows has it's version called Aero.  My Vista and 7 installs sit at about 25% RAM used when idle.  My Mac sits at about 18% idle, but it uses Unix memory management.  Which means on the fly RAM gets allocated to different apps, but only when in use.  I can't tell you how many times I have had uTorrent or Firefox run amock and eat up gigs and gigs of RAM in Windows.



> also to the guy who said he did a test, khe khe, ahm, that 45 seconds i mentioned, that is from hitting the power button, till complete load in, i even have a password that i typed in. after 45 seconds the ocmputer if fully operational. you should really check your system. My old big computer, with 2.5 GB of ram DDR1, and Pentium 4, starts up around 1 minute 15 seconds. sometimes a bit faster some times a bit slower.



results always vary on a PC because there are so many configurations you can possibly have.  One configuration change can drastically change results.  



> If Mac os is so good what is the problem, you just admited that you think that they might have some loop holes. and as i said we better know about it so we can protect ourselves.



No OS is bullet proof, but the results speak for them self.  OS X is more secure than Windows just by looking at how many exploit are out there for each OS.   When organizations offer up $10,000 cash prizes for anyone who can remotely hack a mac and no one wins, what do you think happens?  When you are allowed to run code to escalate access on the machine, all machines do eventually get hacked, but Windows is always the quickest.

You pointed out Apple's super secret policy on their product is hurting the customer, where I pointed out, open security policies don't help either.  It is give and take, and the reason why you have 100s of thousands of botnet windows boxes out there is because people don't update and secure their OS.


----------



## Cameldude

tlarkin said:


> the reason why you have 100s of thousands of botnet windows boxes out there is because people don't update and secure their OS.



The reason is that Windows has over 80% of worlds use thus hackers take advantage. MAc will see its hand fulls of attacks very soon, as it gets more and more popular. 



tlarkin said:


> results always vary on a PC because there are so many configurations you can possibly have. One configuration change can drastically change results.



It should not be any more than 1 minute and 30 seconds. if it is you should optimise it more.

I look forward to Windows 2012, we shall see how that would compare...


----------



## tlarkin

Cameldude said:


> The reason is that Windows has over 80% of worlds use thus hackers take advantage. MAc will see its hand fulls of attacks very soon, as it gets more and more popular.



Your link clearly points out that market share has little to do with security, and trying to defend Windows being less secure because it has more of a market share is not a solid defense.





> It should not be any more than 1 minute and 30 seconds. if it is you should optimise it more.
> 
> I look forward to Windows 2012, we shall see how that would compare...



It all depends, one chipset driver can botch up everything, and since drivers have direct access to the kernel they can botch up performance heavily as well.  So you can't always optimize your performance unless you change parts or software out and sometimes that is not an option.  I had an older PC that the sound would cut out in half the games I owned because of a glitchy driver and every time I updated it, it would blue screen and kill the PC.  

It is give and take with PCs, and unless you buy quality parts you are gambling on performance.  Even quality parts can have driver issues which can botch windows, and it may be your specific combination of parts.  Like I have read stories where brand x motherboard would not work as well with brand Y video card as other motherboards did in comparison.

Sure you can optimize it, but out of the box the Mac is always optimized.


----------



## DMGrier

Cameldude said:


> The reason is that Windows has over 80% of worlds use thus hackers take advantage. MAc will see its hand fulls of attacks very soon, as it gets more and more popular.
> 
> 
> 
> It should not be any more than 1 minute and 30 seconds. if it is you should optimise it more.
> 
> I look forward to Windows 2012, we shall see how that would compare...



I'm not looking forward to windows 8, MS usually makes a good os, then a bad one.  Just look at there history, I wouldn't be bragging. They should hold onto 7 for a little bit longer then what they are.


----------



## Cameldude

DMGrier said:


> I'm not looking forward to windows 8, MS usually makes a good os, then a bad one.  Just look at there history, I wouldn't be bragging. They should hold onto 7 for a little bit longer then what they are.



They promised a 128bit support, D, i need to ask my self why.


----------



## PabloTeK

Cameldude said:


> They promised a 128bit support, D, i need to ask my self why.



IBM has it on I think their System z mainframes, so Microsoft want it.


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## DMGrier

I am sorry to break this to you but 128 bit security is better but still breakable. People hac the servers at my work that are 128 bit security. Plus viruses still break through, people where I work that go into restricted web sites have crashed our server's from viruses. I am excited to see how windows will develope and they are making baby steps right now but I am hoping they slowly continue moving towards a unix OS. They have done this already by the way the OS does it's boot up.


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## Cameldude

DMGrier said:


> I am sorry to break this to you but 128 bit security is better but still breakable. People hac the servers at my work that are 128 bit security. Plus viruses still break through, people where I work that go into restricted web sites have crashed our server's from viruses. I am excited to see how windows will develope and they are making baby steps right now but I am hoping they slowly continue moving towards a unix OS. They have done this already by the way the OS does it's boot up.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/32-bit

I do not think 128 bit, is meant the way you mention it, (security)
although do correct me if i am wrong


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## tlarkin

Cameldude said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/32-bit
> 
> I do not think 128 bit, is meant the way you mention it, (security)
> although do correct me if i am wrong



You are right, I think he is confused with encryption level.


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## Xiaozhu

imaginaryD said:


> The macbook on the other hand would be (including iWork) $1250.00 (Since I`m going to university apple has this promotion on where I get about 20% off and get a free iPod Touch)


Is the 20% off for the campus computer store, or for all Apple stores? I'm a university student too, and 20% off an expensive Mac Pro would be awesome. And it applies to all Apple laptops?


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## bkribbs

Xiaozhu said:


> Is the 20% off for the campus computer store, or for all Apple stores? I'm a university student too, and 20% off an expensive Mac Pro would be awesome. And it applies to all Apple laptops?



http://store.apple.com/us-hed/findyourschool


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## tlarkin

Xiaozhu said:


> Is the 20% off for the campus computer store, or for all Apple stores? I'm a university student too, and 20% off an expensive Mac Pro would be awesome. And it applies to all Apple laptops?



Apple gives every student and employee for a valid educational organization a 10% flat discount.  Anything beyond the 10% would be a deal the university or school has done.


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## DMGrier

Well I thought you where saying that was a security feature they where adding, As far as them creating a 128 bit system, That would be cool, it won't really matter cause so will apple and the Linux distro's will release one two. Lets just hope that if they create a 128 bit system it isn't like when MS gave us the 64 bit system aka vista.


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## Xiaozhu

bkribbs said:


> http://store.apple.com/us-hed/findyourschool


Oh maybe Canada doesn't have the 20% off promotion then? These look like regular prices to me:

*Apple Store - Education (Canada)*



tlarkin said:


> Apple gives every student and employee for a valid educational organization a 10% flat discount.  Anything beyond the 10% would be a deal the university or school has done.


Oh I see, it applies to Canada too? I'll call my campus store later to check.


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## tlarkin

DMGrier said:


> Well I thought you where saying that was a security feature they where adding, As far as them creating a 128 bit system, That would be cool, it won't really matter cause so will apple and the Linux distro's will release one two. Lets just hope that if they create a 128 bit system it isn't like when MS gave us the 64 bit system aka vista.



128bit hardware isn't even really viable, not to mention almost all applications still run 32bit.  On my win7 box at home if I open task manager all my apps are running in 32bit mode, because the developers have not made 64bit versions yet.


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## DMGrier

I am just saying when MS gives us new technology it is sometimes best to wait till there next OS or at least a service pack or too.


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## Metallica17

jjsevdt said:


> I'm not really sure what you're basing this on?  I'm sure you've had years of experience to which you base you're claim [Said in sarcastic tone while noting you're only 16]
> 
> Macs are a bit more expensive if you look at raw computing power, but that's not what they sell.  They're selling you a product that's going to last for years on end.  They're selling you the ability to take you're laptop to any Apple Store and not have to ship it in the mail and get lost in the shuffle.  The battery life on the Macs is excellent.  They actually get close to what they claim.  If you get a 12cell battery it's usually bigger and heavier.  Try to find a laptop that delivers the usability and power of a Mac in the same size.  It won't happen.  I searched for a month before purchasing.  Size and weight were big considerations due to traveling on a deployment.
> 
> As one person pointed out his laptops are disposible, but Macs actually have a resell value and you can usually get $1000 off a used MBP.
> 
> Windows 7 is a great operating system.  I love it.  I usually keep it on my MBP as well.  There's a lot of things that Microsoft has derived from OS X.
> 
> Am I being biased because I own a Mac?  You may think so, but I'm just trying to point out the benifits and hate when people flat out say Macs suck without substantiating their claim.



I could give an infinite amount of reasons to not get a mac. I own one. It is complete GARBAGE. I'm not being bias like you think I am, (Since I'm just some 16 year old whose opinion doesn't matter apparently) but I will never waste money on a Mac again. Period.


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## Metallica17

mkeyfoo34 said:


> Metalica 17
> What a stupid statement to say Macs are no good, obviously you have never used one
> to it's full intention
> I have used every Mac since the old MacPlus
> Best computer produced bar none !you couldn't do good graphics on a PC.



I have a mac laptop that is useless to me, and my parents have an iMac. So don't tell me I have never used one.


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## DMGrier

I don't think there isn't anything wrong with you being 16, I think what he meant to say was some of us remember using windows 3.1, and I remember back when the imac really did suck. I don't know how many school's still use them but my god the imac's sucked so bad always a spinning beach ball when you clicked on something. 

Apple are not bad computer's if you know how to use them. Like I would argue the best OS is ubuntu, it has been able to do everything windows 7 could, and it is actually easier to use then 7 in my opinion. It is just how you use a OS, I know a guy who does amazing stuff with the FreeDOS OS.


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## tlarkin

Metallica17 said:


> I could give an infinite amount of reasons to not get a mac. I own one. It is complete GARBAGE. I'm not being bias like you think I am, (Since I'm just some 16 year old whose opinion doesn't matter apparently) but I will never waste money on a Mac again. Period.



I have 2 Macs at home, and 8 in my office.  I manage 8,000 macs at work and 40 xserves.  I also own two PCs at home, my previous job was helping manage 10,000 PCs (all windows) and about 80+ HP Proliant servers (mix of win2k3 server and Novell.

I would say I have had a bit of experience on both sides, and I would never call one or the other complete garbage.  Though these days I do think Windows is the worst OS out there.


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## DMGrier

I will say in his defense that at least he has owned a Mac unlike some of the people that argue on this subject. Now if he wanted some respect with his comment then I would say they he can call them garbage but he should  support it with some facts.

I like apple and it took me to play around on one while I was fixing a buddies window pc and need to use the mac to get drivers from the internet. But I hated apple for years cause I used the first imac's in public school and they where so slow, they may have never froze and crashed like windows but sometimes the length of time it took them to do some task Windows was still faster with the crash.

But Since intel and nvidia came into the picture they have pretty good performance. The price still way to high. And with Apple there are a few thing where they are behind like not offering bluray, which wouldn't be bad if itune video was 1080p but from what I read online there only 720p.


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## tlarkin

DMGrier said:


> I will say in his defense that at least he has owned a Mac unlike some of the people that argue on this subject. Now if he wanted some respect with his comment then I would say they he can call them garbage but he should  support it with some facts.
> 
> I like apple and it took me to play around on one while I was fixing a buddies window pc and need to use the mac to get drivers from the internet. But I hated apple for years cause I used the first imac's in public school and they where so slow, they may have never froze and crashed like windows but sometimes the length of time it took them to do some task Windows was still faster with the crash.
> 
> But Since intel and nvidia came into the picture they have pretty good performance. The price still way to high. And with Apple there are a few thing where they are behind like not offering bluray, which wouldn't be bad if itune video was 1080p but from what I read online there only 720p.



There is this engineer for Apple, who went to a college once and asked all the college students about their thoughts on Apple.  All the kids said that the Apple computers at the school sucked.  He went to investigate and sure enough, the Mac labs were crappy.

Why was that?

Well, back then Apple didn't have many back end tools to manage labs, so back in the day you had typically 1 guy (since there are IT snobs that refuse to use Macs - Haters gonna hate! ) running around fixing, maintaining each computer by hitting them one at a time.  

So, this Apple employee wrote a software called Netrestore (now it is a retired app) which allowed central imaging over netboot for Mac clients.  This spawned off a whole bunch of enterprise support for Macs, and helped techy people in the back end make the end user experience better.

Most likely your work/school computer is going to suck compared to your personal one.  That is because they are managed, and have certain policy enabled on them because they are purchased to do one function.  Either help you with school work, or your job work, and not meant to play games, music, movies, etc....

So anyone that says a Mac sucks because they use them at school and it sucks really is probably not getting the full experience of what OS X is.   

I agree though, at least that guy owns one.  I see so many people say I've used OS X for a month and it sucked.  How can you learn how to efficiently use an OS in 1 month?


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## iGeekOFComedy

Metallica17 said:


> I have a mac laptop that is useless to me, and my parents have an iMac. So don't tell me I have never used one.



Pics or it didn't happen


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## DMGrier

No I firmly believe that the first imac's just sucked. I remember using actual Macintosh computers and they ran smooth with no hardware failure. The imac's always gave the spinning beach ball and where always breaking. The school system eventually switched over to Dell and they ran much smoother and far more reliable. 

I do understand the a personal computer over a school system computer will run much better but what I am saying is that there where some systems that ran better then others.


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## tlarkin

DMGrier said:


> No I firmly believe that the first imac's just sucked. I remember using actual Macintosh computers and they ran smooth with no hardware failure. The imac's always gave the spinning beach ball and where always breaking. The school system eventually switched over to Dell and they ran much smoother and far more reliable.
> 
> I do understand the a personal computer over a school system computer will run much better but what I am saying is that there where some systems that ran better then others.



Dell?  More reliable?  I hate Dell, and I used to have a ton of them at work....


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## DMGrier

Hey man I am telling you a experience from when I was back in school. Plus I have never had a problem with Dell's I have owned many of there laptops and desktops and they have always been great, there just a company you never buy there base line models from, just like everywhere else.

I am not comparing a Dell to a apple product it quality build, what I am telling you that the first gen imac where garbage, not at all saying that is the case now. I also prefer Dell cause ubuntu drivers work on 90% of Dells.


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## FuryRosewood

i think this best sums up the whole NIX vs WIN vs MAC debate:

http://www.deadtroll.com/index2.html?/video/ossuckscable.html~content

to be totally honest i dont know how you guys got soo off topic...but all he was asking for was what was a better recommendation, now why which os is better than which c.c;


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## DMGrier

Linux is perfect


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## bkribbs

DMGrier said:


> Linux is perfect



I do hope your kidding. There are most definitly flaws.


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## DMGrier

One it was a joke from the link. Next of all it has just as many flaws as the other OS companies.


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## mkeyfoo34

*macs*

I have always used a Mac and HP
Some years ago if you typed in the Icon at the top right of a Mac to make it your Mac.....typing in the word Sony, would crash the Mac.


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## mkeyfoo34

Have some posts been deleted ?


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## DMGrier

What you mean?


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