# Mac?



## DMGrier

If I was looking at a computer for software purpose for like my music and movies would a mac be good for me? Whats your guys opinion's on mac's from a non gaming point of view?


----------



## `PaWz

Macbooks are overrated and overpriced.  It won't do anything that a PC laptop can't do with multimedia.


----------



## DMGrier

I'm not trying to knock regular pc's cause thats what I have always used and I like them but from what I have priced out on mac there reaLLY not that more expensive from what ive seen.


----------



## `PaWz

If you configure a lenovo or a dell laptop on their websites, you will see that you can get _much_ better hardware for your money than a macbook ever could.


----------



## Kill Bill

Ok I love macs personally from self experince of not having blue screens of death or kernel errors.

Mac:
Pro:
Not much Virus'es (wait for the guy that says ''because no one buys them''
More suited to media making - Photos,Movies,Music and playing or watching them aswell

Cons:
Can't run .EXE so you either need to buy the 100Euros paralles,vmware fusion or  use the bootcamp in it.
Video games wont run - Same as above all .exe unless you buy mac compadible ones but some are built using the Power processer instead of intel.


----------



## `PaWz

Kill Bill said:


> Ok I love macs personally from self experince of not having blue screens of death or kernel errors.


If you're implying that PC's get the BSOD on a regular basis, then you are just full if it.  

Please explain how a macbook gives a better multimedia experience.  And it can't be something that just makes the OS look fancy.


----------



## Kill Bill

`PaWz said:


> If you're implying that PC's get the BSOD on a regular basis, then you are just full if it.
> 
> Please explain how a macbook gives a better multimedia experience.  And it can't be something that just makes the OS look fancy.



Ok lets see

1. iMovie does not have a crash every two hours (like WMM) 
2. It's more orginazed than windows
3. Time machine - So you dont need 400 discs to back up 40days of your life
4. Spaces - I really use this feature alot. It can have upto twelve screens on one monitor. Just hit CTRL And the Up,Down,Left,Right button and you get a new screen and you can go back and foward
5. Garage band - I get alot of fun out of this - What does Windows have, Oh yea Sound recorder
6. No drivers need to be diggen.

Oh yea. Every person I know who has a pc got a blue screen of death atleast 13times


----------



## Gareth

Kill Bill said:


> Ok lets see
> 
> 1. iMovie does not have a crash every two hours (like WMM)


 If yours crashes a lot, then there is something wrong with your computer.


Kill Bill said:


> 2. It's more orginazed than windows


 The user organizes the interface, its up to you on how cluttered, or clean you want it.


Kill Bill said:


> 3. Time machine - So you dont need 400 discs to back up 40days of your life


  Its called Windows Restore, been around now since Windows ME, and we don't use floppies any more also, no good backing up to those. 


Kill Bill said:


> 4. Spaces - I really use this feature alot. It can have upto twelve screens on one monitor. Just hit CTRL And the Up,Down,Left,Right button and you get a new screen and you can go back and foward


 


Kill Bill said:


> 5. Garage band - I get alot of fun out of this - What does Windows have, Oh yea Sound recorder


 You can download a windows tool, forgot the name of it, does just that. 


Kill Bill said:


> 6. No drivers need to be diggen.


 all dependent on the hardware


Kill Bill said:


> Oh yea. Every person I know who has a pc got a blue screen of death atleast 13times


 Then they have either cheap and nasty software/hardware or they have viruses, also, you didn't say the operating system, so we'll presume its Windows 3.11 


Kill Bill said:


> Mac:
> Pro:
> Not much Virus'es (wait for the guy that says ''because no one buys them''


Exactly, why would coders waste their time on apple when they can spend the same time coding one for Windows, which has a MUCH bigger audience? Because Macs are not very 'popular' that is exactly why there are not many viruses.


There we go. 

Above all that, I wouldn't recommend a Mac strictly on the price, you can get a muchhhh better laptop for the price.


----------



## Kill Bill

Garethman!!` said:


> If yours crashes a lot, then there is something wrong with your computer.
> The user organizes the interface, its up to you on how cluttered, or clean you want it.
> Its called Windows Restore, been around now since Windows ME, and we don't use floppies any more also, no good backing up to those.
> 
> You can download a windows tool, forgot the name of it, does just that.
> all dependent on the hardware
> Then they have either cheap and nasty software/hardware or they have viruses, also, you didn't say the operating system, so we'll presume its Windows 3.11
> 
> 
> There we go.
> 
> Above all that, I wouldn't recommend a Mac strictly on the price, you can get a muchhhh better laptop for the price.


My hardware is top notch and got good results. And everyone else had either  ACER,Toshiba,Fujutsi Siemens,Apple


----------



## cohen

I would go for a mac... a friend of mine has one and i love it!

I'm starting to save my $$$ for one now. With what i have heard on vista is not good and i would now go for the Mac OS. 

All though they are over priced they are very good in the tools for editting and that they don't get viruses.


----------



## Gareth

People say Vista is no good, but those are generally the people who

+Have never used it
+Have a slow computer
+Paranoid
+Going off one persons review
+Not detailing enough about why they do not like it.


I hate to say it also, but Macs Do Get Viruses. No operating system is 100% immune, no matter what.


----------



## ducis

if your just into movies and music it wont make a diffence
both are excellent however i prefer media center in windows as there isnt a apple made equivalent that i know of of course what i would do if i where you is id get a Asus Eee load windows xp media center edition on to it and have a computer that more then suited your needs.
macs do get viruses by the way its just no one scans on macs/very little anti-virus is available

^my unbiased opinion^
my biased opinion:
MACS SUCK I CANT BELIEVE THERE MARKETING A UNIX architecture WTF AT LEAST WINDOWS IS BASED ON SOMETHING THAT WASNT OPENSOURCE THEY DONT EVEN SELL IT RETAIL

i hate apple as a company there in your face obnoxious marketing hurts my love of computing they dont deserve a penny


----------



## ducis

Garethman!!` said:


> People say Vista is no good, but those are generally the people who
> 
> +Have never used it
> +Have a slow computer
> +Paranoid
> +Going off one persons review
> +Not detailing enough about why they do not like it.
> 
> 
> I hate to say it also, but Macs Do Get Viruses. No operating system is 100% immune, no matter what.



WTF i know a guy who didnt know that he had to download a flash plugin so he couldn't play his internet games and he blamed it on vista


----------



## speedyink

Wow, this thread escalated quickly

Man am I really getting sick of hearing "I heard Vista blah blah blah".  You know what, stfu or try it out before spreading crap about it.

Not talking to anyone in particular, but I'm just saying...


----------



## Gareth

firsttimebuilder said:


> WTF i know a guy who didnt know that he had to download a flash plugin so he couldn't play his internet games and he blamed it on vista



Proves my point entirely.


----------



## Kill Bill

vk3fcll said:


> I would go for a mac... a friend of mine has one and i love it!
> 
> I'm starting to save my $$$ for one now. With what i have heard on vista is not good and i would now go for the Mac OS.
> 
> All though they are over priced they are very good in the tools for editting and that they don't get viruses.



DITTO. which one are you getting? I'm saving up for the pro + First time builder - We use front row


----------



## cohen

Kill Bill said:


> DITTO. which one are you getting? I'm saving up for the pro + First time builder - We use front row



I'm going for a Mac Book Pro... 15 inch 2.5GHZ... 2GB Ram.. Glossy Screen..

Not getting a mouse... getting a bag and i don't know about a remote yet... but when i start my job next year in jan... i have a few projects before getting money for mac.....

ipod video
dual screen
other computer bits
mac book pro !!!!


----------



## `PaWz

So, DMgrier, the conclusion is basically that buying a mac is not worth it.  A PC laptop will do everything you need it to do at a much lower price


----------



## Kill Bill

vk3fcll said:


> I'm going for a Mac Book Pro... 15 inch 2.5GHZ... 2GB Ram.. Glossy Screen..
> 
> Not getting a mouse... getting a bag and i don't know about a remote yet... but when i start my job next year in jan... i have a few projects before getting money for mac.....
> 
> ipod video
> dual screen
> other computer bits
> mac book pro !!!!



I'm getting the 17'' with the 2.6GHz at least I know when upgrades come next year (target) The 17'' be upgraded first. Heres the rig I want

Intel core 2 duo 2.6GHz
2gb ram - Normal (I'll be 4gb ram later on and install it)
8600M GT 512mb GDDR3
250GB HDD
iWork 08 Installed
(Have final cut express in a disc so thats k)
Big glossy Screen
________________
Extras:
Nylon Sling Bag
Laptop Cooler

-------------Back on topic after spamming for a reply-------------------------
Generally if you just want to do word documents and watch films get a cheap laptop + If you dont mind reparing it from blue screen of deaths


----------



## TrainTrackHack

Kill Bill said:


> Ok lets see
> 
> 1. iMovie does not have a crash every two hours (like WMM)
> 2. It's more orginazed than windows
> 3. Time machine - So you dont need 400 discs to back up 40days of your life
> 4. Spaces - I really use this feature alot. It can have upto twelve screens on one monitor. Just hit CTRL And the Up,Down,Left,Right button and you get a new screen and you can go back and foward
> 5. Garage band - I get alot of fun out of this - What does Windows have, Oh yea Sound recorder
> 6. No drivers need to be diggen.
> 
> Oh yea. Every person I know who has a pc got a blue screen of death atleast 13times



1. I've never had WMM crash on me. As a matter of fact, I think most of us haven't - if it crashes on you every two hours, there's something wrong with your computer. That's like saying "I like car #1 better because car #2 doesn't work too well for me. I know that it needs maintenance but I'm too dumb to fix it, so I'll just blame it for being that way!"

2. The user is the one who organizes his/her stuff. I'd love to believe that macs have a feature that sets up the interface the way you like it and oranizes your file/stuff perfectly with a single click of a button, but I don't think they do...

3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Restore been around for a while...

4. I can go to nView desktop management and do the same trick, *and* I can use some bit easier keyboard combinations that don't require you to have your buddy with you to help press all the damn buttons.

5. In the "internet" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet ) there's thousands of programs classified as "freeware" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeware ) that you can freely download, use, distribute and so on. Oh and btw, these don't work on mac since they're ".exe" files... so while I'm off to my pro studio, you're stuck in your dusty "garage". Beat that!

6. And no hardware can be customized. Oh yes, you can add more memory... and even change your HDs, right? and even the PSU??? Really? Wow... beats PC, alright *cough* *cough*.

Oh yea. The only OS that has *ever* BSOD on me is windows 98... and all it takes is "pressing a key to continue". Wham, the BSOD is gone and it's stable. The only time I had to restart my machine because of a BSOD was when I pulled a memorystick and other random components off my computer while it was up and running. BSOD, to me, has never been more than a "Bluescreen of momentary annoyance a couple of times a year".

I've absolutely nothing against macs/mac users, but exaggerating faults of PCs/windows is just bloody annoying - like macs were perfect or something. They're not, they might be (and are) better than PCs in many ways, we all know that, but PCs have their advantages, too. Don't forget that majority of people have PCs/windows, probably for a reason...


----------



## Kill Bill

hackapelite said:


> 1. I've never had WMM crash on me. As a matter of fact, I think most of us haven't - if it crashes on you every two hours, there's something wrong with your computer. That's like saying "I like car #1 better because car #2 doesn't work too well for me. I know that it needs maintenance but I'm too dumb to fix it, so I'll just blame it for being that way!"
> 
> 2. The user is the one who organizes his/her stuff. I'd love to believe that macs have a feature that sets up the interface the way you like it and oranizes your file/stuff perfectly with a single click of a button, but I don't think they do...
> 
> 3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Restore been around for a while...
> 
> 4. I can go to nView desktop management and do the same trick, *and* I can use some bit easier keyboard combinations that don't require you to have your buddy with you to help press all the damn buttons.
> 
> 5. In the "internet" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet ) there's thousands of programs classified as "freeware" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeware ) that you can freely download, use, distribute and so on. Oh and btw, these don't work on mac since they're ".exe" files... so while I'm off to my pro studio, you're stuck in your dusty "garage". Beat that!
> 
> 6. And no hardware can be customized. Oh yes, you can add more memory... and even change your HDs, right? and even the PSU??? Really? Wow... beats PC, alright *cough* *cough*.
> 
> Oh yea. The only OS that has *ever* BSOD on me is windows 98... and all it takes is "pressing a key to continue". Wham, the BSOD is gone and it's stable. The only time I had to restart my machine because of a BSOD was when I pulled a memorystick and other random components off my computer while it was up and running. BSOD, to me, has never been more than a "Bluescreen of momentary annoyance a couple of times a year".
> 
> I've absolutely nothing against macs/mac users, but exaggerating faults of PCs/windows is just bloody annoying - like macs were perfect or something. They're not, they might be (and are) better than PCs in many ways, we all know that, but PCs have their advantages, too. Don't forget that majority of people have PCs/windows, probably for a reason...



Why do you keep forgeting the one 3 letters that defines the sentence. IMO


----------



## `PaWz

Kill Bill said:


> Why do you keep forgeting the one 3 letters that defines the sentence. IMO


No, it really has nothing to do with "IMO"


----------



## Kill Bill

`PaWz said:


> No, it really has nothing to do with "IMO"



Yes it does. As i said before no one is right nor wrong


----------



## cohen

Kill Bill said:


> Yes it does. As i said before no one is right nor wrong



Agree - everyone has their own opinions


----------



## `PaWz

vk3fcll said:


> Agree - everyone has their own opinions


Opinions don't apply

It is a *fact* that you can get a PC laptop with better performance at a lower price.  This *cannot* be disputed.


----------



## [email protected]

i'd have to agree with macs being WAY to expensive, and you can get the same hardware in a mac for less, put it in a case, install a linux distro, add a dock and fake os x theme, and no one would no the difference from osx just from the monitor. and you can get WINE, which is totally legal, and run all your windows-only software(as long as it is legal) if you like osx so much. but anyway, DMGrier, i would get a pc or custom build a pc and get linux.


----------



## TrainTrackHack

Kill Bill said:


> Yes it does. As i said before no one is right nor wrong



Really? How about this: 2+2=4. Well you CAN go on arguing that it's just my opinion, and that in your opinion 2+2= -3.76 and no one is right nor wrong. And I can't recall you saying "IMO" when you listed those six over-exaggerated, at best half-true things why macs rule so hard. Just don't got over the edge when you're publicly worshipping the mighty apple, and everything will be fine.


----------



## Kill Bill

hackapelite said:


> Really? How about this: 2+2=4. Well you CAN go on arguing that it's just my opinion, and that in your opinion 2+2= -3.76 and no one is right nor wrong. And I can't recall you saying "IMO" when you listed those six over-exaggerated, at best half-true things why macs rule so hard. Just don't got over the edge when you're publicly worshipping the mighty apple, and everything will be fine.



I made a statment saying 2+2=4 is a statment 

Also`PaWz how do you know? every laptop cheaper than the mac could be badly built IMO.


----------



## TrainTrackHack

Kill Bill said:


> I made a statment saying 2+2=4 is a statment



What's this supposed to mean? You never made such statement...

Anyway, I've been using a lot of "cheapo" laptops, and I've never had any problems with them. Even though they all have had windows installed on them, they work just great. They're not "badly built" or anything like that.

AFAIK macs are overpriced, and that's the way I'll be thinking unless someone proves otherwise or mac prices come down. Period.

I'd go with [email protected]'s idea. PCs are cheaper than MACs, and with linux you won't have the stability/reliability/security issues of windows - and it's free. Of course, if money's not the problem you might as well go with a macbook, those things look damn nice + they've got this cool backlit keyboard (if that matters to you - but I'd really like one). And now that macs have intel CPUs in them, you can still use windows and/or linux. However, if budget matters, you'd probably better off with a PC.


----------



## cohen

All you have to do it search on youtube "mac vs PC"


----------



## `PaWz

Kill Bill said:


> Also`PaWz how do you know? every laptop cheaper than the mac could be badly built IMO.


But they aren't badly built.


----------



## CPTMuller

The thing is, when you buy a Mac, you are paying for software and for the aesthetics of a mac. KillBill, you are in the middle of a group of enthusiasts who like hardware. Personally I don't think that I could justify buying a mac because it can't do anything that my PC can't do (with my customizations, and unique software library). The fact that so many people think that iMovie, and some simple applications such as "Spaces", which are not useful unless you want the feature, and can be easily replicated on a windows PC, if you desire.


----------



## Kill Bill

CPTMuller said:


> The thing is, when you buy a Mac, you are paying for software and for the aesthetics of a mac. KillBill, you are in the middle of a group of enthusiasts who like hardware. Personally I don't think that I could justify buying a mac because it can't do anything that my PC can't do (with my customizations, and unique software library). The fact that so many people think that iMovie, and some simple applications such as "Spaces", which are not useful unless you want the feature, and can be easily replicated on a windows PC, if you desire.


Spaces is not useful. Only if you knew. I didnt want it when I used leopard it just became very convienent


----------



## speedyink

vk3fcll said:


> All you have to do it search on youtube "mac vs PC"



Errr, no thanks.  I hear that shit enough from the Mac users in real life.  

Every laptop cheaper than a Mac badly built?  Thats a laugh.  Sure, Macs have quality parts in them, and cheap PC's most likely don't, but don't forget the in between here.  There are more expensive PC's (which still don't run as pricey as a Mac) which are built great with quality parts, some of which are better than whats in a Mac.  What are you paying for in a Mac then?  Style, Little extra features (backlit keyboard...errr...and...a backlit apple logo?), and of course the Apple tax.  

Now I have to stress out that I dont hate Macs.  I used them for a full semester for Video class.  I did really like the Mac, and did want one, but I could not justify the price to performance ratio.  I also didn't like the lack of support for the programs I know and love.  I also learnt first hand that Macs aren't perfect like a lot of the users like to say.  Just like if you don't take care of a PC, if neglected (I'm talking software here), Mac's run just as crappy as a neglected PC.  10-20 Minute startup times, random crashes (which are worse in Mac because instead of trying to explain what happened, It gives you THE most half assed errors ever that pretty much say "I'm closing this program because I feel like it"), and total system lockups.  As for the OS itself I don't find it to be any more organized than Windows...IMO (<-- Thats for you Kill Bill). 

SO in conclusion to the OP, Mac, PC, it's YOUR choice and YOU have to make the decision.  There are too many people in this world that will try to sway you one way or the other, and most likely they're full of shit.  If you can afford it and have used OSX before (and like it of course), then by all means get a Mac.  If you just want it for playing music and watching movies and stuff, be like ING Direct and "save your money" and get a much cheaper PC.


----------



## CPTMuller

Kill Bill said:


> Spaces is not useful. Only if you knew. I didnt want it when I used leopard it just became very convienent



I use a windows UI shell that lets me use multiple desktop spaces. I just think that it is a null point because there are a lot of free ways to do it.


----------



## PunterCam

For a laptop, mac handsdown. You can spec the equivalent pc laptop better, but it would still be pretty useless for any hardcore processing or gaming at that price level. For what you want a macbook would be great - they are small though, check them out in the shops - you may want a bigger screen if you plan on doing anything in great detail (design work or something).


----------



## `PaWz

PunterCam said:


> For a laptop, mac handsdown. You can spec the equivalent pc laptop better, but it would still be pretty useless for any hardcore processing or gaming at that price level. For what you want a macbook would be great - they are small though, check them out in the shops - you may want a bigger screen if you plan on doing anything in great detail (design work or something).


So, what are the actual benefits of a macbook, again?


----------



## CPTMuller

`PaWz said:


> So, what are the actual benefits of a macbook, again?



Hehe, well played.


----------



## TrainTrackHack

`PaWz said:


> So, what are the actual benefits of a macbook, again?



Good looks and a few nice features. And it makes your wallet lighter, too, which of course means that it's easier&more convenient to carry.


----------



## `PaWz

hackapelite said:


> Good looks


Yes, let's all spend hundreds of dollars extra on a laptop because it looks pretty and gives you absolutely nothing else.


hackapelite said:


> and a few nice features.


There's nothing that Mac OS has that XP or Vista can't do.


hackapelite said:


> And it makes your wallet lighter, too, which of course means that it's easier&more convenient to carry.


You mean a macbook eats through your wallet?  You're definitely right on that one!


----------



## Irishwhistle

I'd go Mac... I don't use it on a regular basis (as it's not compatible with my rig. Since I hate Windows I usually use Ubuntu Linux.) Mac is awesome! Very secure, easy to use, fast, with a cool looking clean interface. Leopard is REALLY cool.


----------



## UriA702

I own a thinkpad, a sony vaio, and a macbook pro. 

My Vaio costed $1200, macbook pro costed double that and the Vaio will outperform it in just about every way. I would not go for a mac, as others have mentioned it is simple marketing strategy that leads you to believe you will gain some sort of experience that is missing from windows. Macs are not susceptible to as many malicious softwares as Windows, but that's merely because of the hundreds of millions of Windows machines out there. 
I've owned multiple macs and windows machines. The cons of the mac outweigh the pros by a landslide. Get yourself a nice thinkpad, or a nice vaio and you will be sit.


----------



## BiscuitAdvisory

*mac....humm*

well, if your looking for something that will last you forever,.. a computer that you wont buy accessories for or paying a bit more for, a macs for you.
when we speak of APPLE, its either pay a lot for a stable, overestimated machine, or pay alot more for a stable, fine peice of machinery that will cost you an arm and a leg to get anything else FOR it... and if you want writing programs, or games...or other software that has nothing to do with multimedia (since macs reign in that category), then get a PC....
PC fills in all the other blanks..... they have a range of pretty much everything...alot of selection.


----------



## `PaWz

BiscuitAdvisory said:


> well, if your looking for something that will last you forever,.. a computer that you wont buy accessories for or paying a bit more for, a macs for you.
> when we speak of APPLE, its either pay a lot for a stable, overestimated machine, or pay alot more for a stable, fine peice of machinery that will cost you an arm and a leg to get anything else FOR it... and if you want writing programs, or games...or other software that has nothing to do with multimedia (since macs reign in that category), then get a PC....
> PC fills in all the other blanks..... they have a range of pretty much everything...alot of selection.


Where is your evidence that macbooks last longer?


----------



## UriA702

I would put sony or lenovo's engineering up against apples anyday of the week. Have you ever even opened up an apple machine? It's not pretty. sub-par engineering to many PC brands, especially Sony who make great products across the board.


----------



## cohen

For a good laptop i would go for HP or a mac... i find apple are good with some of their things.

I love some of the apple products!!!


----------



## CPTMuller

Lenovo makes some amazing machines as well, definately worth looking I love my X61 to death.


----------



## Sir Travis D

If you can spend above $2200, you can get a good mac laptop. It will not be the same as a pc for the price. I have compared this with a customized dell laptop and macbook. In order to get the nvidia 8600 graphics card, you need to spend $1999 on a macbook pro versus a $1150 dell xps notebook. Aside from the price difference, macs are known to get good battery life. If you want good battery life, can pay a somewhat high price, and want to stand out from the crowd, the mac will be a good choice for you. Don't listen to people who say they want a mac because vista is "bad". You can easily install xp if vista is "bad". You should read in depth reviews before making assumptions about a whole operating system. In terms of software and hardware there is no difference between a mac and a windows laptop. You can get better graphics cards, processors, ect. in a pc for a generally lower price if you shop around.


----------



## cohen

Yeah really it depends all on budget.


----------



## TrainTrackHack

`PaWz said:


> Yes, let's all spend hundreds of dollars extra on a laptop because it looks pretty and gives you absolutely nothing else.



I did (in my previous post) imply that you might want to go for mac "if money is not a problem". For everyday users/us who don't own the world, of course, I think there's not much point in wasting money for a laptop with a glowing apple.

The backlit apple, btw, when you actually think about it, is pretty funny... what would you say if you saw me walking around with a laptop that's got a glowing banana or strawberry sticker on it? 



`PaWz said:


> There's nothing that Mac OS has that XP or Vista can't do.



Macs have a backlit keyboard and other little+nice features, IMO not worth the extra money you have to put in a macbook, but thenagain, if you have all the money in the world, why wouldn't you just go for it? I was actually referring to the piece of hardware, not OS... I have to agree that OSX can't do anything windows/linux can't.


----------



## Sir Travis D

You can get a led screen in the dell xps for $1200.. What's this about a backlit keyboard? The alienware m15x has that plus it lights up on the touchpad and screen. What's the point of getting a mac if you have a lot of money? A fully tricked out macbook still won't beat an alienware or dell gaming computer or even a thinkpad or panasonic for toughness.


----------



## tlarkin

*sigh* I tried to resist posting on this thread, but there is just too much ignorance and misinformation I could not resist.

Are there any viruses for OS X?

NO, there are NO known viruses in the wild for OS X at all.  Yes, hackers are trying to exploit it because they can get the bragging rights for the first wide spread virus.  It has nothing to do with market share at this point because there are plenty of hackers who also hate apple and think they are arrogant, after all Apple is a large company just like Microsoft, Dell, IBM, so on and so forth.  It has to do with Unix POSIX permissions that would not allow anything to run automatically with out authentication, why do you think Vista finally started creating an Admin and non admin accounts?  It is because it is a security liability.

Are Macs over priced?

No, not at all.  When you go to a Porsche dealer, you pay Porsche prices.  They are sleek (1" thick) and have features no other laptop has like Ambient light senor, sudden motion sensor, FW800, ABGN wireless, blue tooth, gigabit ethernet, camera, 2gigs of ram standard (on the pro laptops), back lit keyboard, so on and so forth, and that is just the hardware.  Out of the box they can also record and master digital audio, author DVDs, edit video, manage and maintain all your digital pictures.  Out of the box the Mac offers way more features than any PC, and it is all streamlined and native.  WMP still can't even play a DVD out of the box with out some codec you need to download.  You get what you pay for period.  Sure there could be a Ford car that has similar specs to a Porsche, but it will not have all those features a Porsche has.  Can your 1200 dollar PC laptop which is similar spec'd to a 1999 dollar macbook pro do everything the macbook pro can out of the box?  No, it can't and by the time you add all the software costs and extra features you easily have bought yourself the macbook pro.  The problem is that Macs don't really have any midranged systems, they are all high end, and you can't really buy a barebones Mac at all.  So, if you are a very simple user and would never need any of the features and have no preference over mac or PC, then get a PC because it will in the end be more cost effective.

I have owned 3 Apple laptops and probably 6 or 7 PC laptops my entire life, and I also manage and repair just about every laptop you can think of, and in my personal experience the Macbook Pro is the best damned laptop I have ever owned.

Also, Macs can run windows, so if you really need to run windows for an application or two you can.


----------



## Kill Bill

tlarkin said:


> *sigh* I tried to resist posting on this thread, but there is just too much ignorance and misinformation I could not resist.
> 
> Are there any viruses for OS X?
> 
> NO, there are NO known viruses in the wild for OS X at all.  Yes, hackers are trying to exploit it because they can get the bragging rights for the first wide spread virus.  It has nothing to do with market share at this point because there are plenty of hackers who also hate apple and think they are arrogant, after all Apple is a large company just like Microsoft, Dell, IBM, so on and so forth.  It has to do with Unix POSIX permissions that would not allow anything to run automatically with out authentication, why do you think Vista finally started creating an Admin and non admin accounts?  It is because it is a security liability.
> 
> Are Macs over priced?
> 
> No, not at all.  When you go to a Porsche dealer, you pay Porsche prices.  They are sleek (1" thick) and have features no other laptop has like Ambient light senor, sudden motion sensor, FW800, ABGN wireless, blue tooth, gigabit ethernet, camera, 2gigs of ram standard (on the pro laptops), back lit keyboard, so on and so forth, and that is just the hardware.  Out of the box they can also record and master digital audio, author DVDs, edit video, manage and maintain all your digital pictures.  Out of the box the Mac offers way more features than any PC, and it is all streamlined and native.  WMP still can't even play a DVD out of the box with out some codec you need to download.  You get what you pay for period.  Sure there could be a Ford car that has similar specs to a Porsche, but it will not have all those features a Porsche has.  Can your 1200 dollar PC laptop which is similar spec'd to a 1999 dollar macbook pro do everything the macbook pro can out of the box?  No, it can't and by the time you add all the software costs and extra features you easily have bought yourself the macbook pro.  The problem is that Macs don't really have any midranged systems, they are all high end, and you can't really buy a barebones Mac at all.  So, if you are a very simple user and would never need any of the features and have no preference over mac or PC, then get a PC because it will in the end be more cost effective.
> 
> I have owned 3 Apple laptops and probably 6 or 7 PC laptops my entire life, and I also manage and repair just about every laptop you can think of, and in my personal experience the Macbook Pro is the best damned laptop I have ever owned.
> 
> Also, Macs can run windows, so if you really need to run windows for an application or two you can.



Thats what I'm saying. And plus linux is being made for the mac so you be able to bootcamp that soon,


----------



## vroom_skies

tlarkin said:


> Are Macs over priced?
> 
> No, not at all.  When you go to a Porsche dealer, you pay Porsche prices.  They are sleek (1" thick) and have features no other laptop has like Ambient light senor, sudden motion sensor, FW800, ABGN wireless, blue tooth, gigabit ethernet, camera, 2gigs of ram standard (on the pro laptops), back lit keyboard, so on and so forth, and that is just the hardware.  Out of the box they can also record and master digital audio, author DVDs, edit video, manage and maintain all your digital pictures.  Out of the box the Mac offers way more features than any PC, and it is all streamlined and native.  WMP still can't even play a DVD out of the box with out some codec you need to download.  You get what you pay for period.  Sure there could be a Ford car that has similar specs to a Porsche, but it will not have all those features a Porsche has.  Can your 1200 dollar PC laptop which is similar spec'd to a 1999 dollar macbook pro do everything the macbook pro can out of the box?  No, it can't and by the time you add all the software costs and extra features you easily have bought yourself the macbook pro.  The problem is that Macs don't really have any midranged systems, they are all high end, and you can't really buy a barebones Mac at all.  So, if you are a very simple user and would never need any of the features and have no preference over mac or PC, then get a PC because it will in the end be more cost effective.



For starters, I don't have anything against Mac, in fact wouldn't mind owning one later down the line.
I would just be careful on what you stated in the hardware specs. "...ABGN wireless, blue tooth, gigabit ethernet, camera, 2gigs of ram standard (on the pro laptops), back lit keyboard, so on and so forth"

Those specs are far from isolated to Mac, my T61 I just bought had all that, minus the  back lit keyboard, but IBM has their own way of doing that.
Also, I don't have extensive time fiddeling with the software on the Mac, but I like picking and choosing my own software that suits my needs, not software that a company chooses for me, even if it is industry standard applications.
Also, there are boat loads of free ware apps out there that take the place of mainstreem software and do a very nice job at it.

As I said before, I don't have a problem with Mac, just watch the way some things are worded.

Bob


----------



## tlarkin

vroom_skies said:


> For starters, I don't have anything against Mac, in fact wouldn't mind owning one later down the line.
> I would just be careful on what you stated in the hardware specs. "...ABGN wireless, blue tooth, gigabit ethernet, camera, 2gigs of ram standard (on the pro laptops), back lit keyboard, so on and so forth"
> 
> Those specs are far from isolated to Mac, my T61 I just bought had all that, minus the  back lit keyboard, but IBM has their own way of doing that.
> Also, I don't have extensive time fiddeling with the software on the Mac, but I like picking and choosing my own software that suits my needs, not software that a company chooses for me, even if it is industry standard applications.
> Also, there are boat loads of free ware apps out there that take the place of mainstreem software and do a very nice job at it.
> 
> As I said before, I don't have a problem with Mac, just watch the way some things are worded.
> 
> Bob



Show me a free ware app that is as good as a closed source pay for app?  You will never find one.  Even as bloated as MS office is, it is still better than the free open source ones.

You have to pay for all your software to make it comparable to a mac out of the box, and no not every laptop comes with those features standard.  You most likely have to add them, which is what I am saying.

Furthermore how is your laptop even comparable to a macbook pro?

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/...-category-id=2432D88590C944B79D33FDA517A5C756

Unless there are other models of that laptop, post links please.


----------



## vroom_skies

tlarkin, man you read into that to deeply lol.

If you recall, I don't have anything against Mac's.
The hardware you listed may come standard (and your right, I did read right over that word standard, my apologies) on Macs, but that doesn't mean it doesn't come standard on other laptops as well. Take my T61, sure somethings might have cost 5 dollars more to add, but thats nothing to cry home about.

In terms of software, I'm guessing you took "take the place of mainstream software..." to a literal meaning, and thats my fault for wording it like that.
The point I was trying to get across was that there are plenty of free ware apps out there that do a "good enough" job as their closed source brother.
I'm sure you know plenty more then I do, but two off the top of my head are:
- Open Office (for use in place of MS Office)
- Gimp (for use in place of PS)

I was just using my T61 for reference, I didn't state that it beat a mbp or even really compared to it, but for the price I got it at, it's one heck of a machine. Plus, it has the Think Pad legacy behind it, even if you don't like Lenovo.

Obviously I don't want to get into an argument here, just stating some other views/ options.

Bob


----------



## tlarkin

I agree with you that a standard Mac may be too much for your average user, however those features are standard, you are getting a Porsche over a Ford.  Obviously, if you won't ever use those features then maybe it is not for you, unless you prefer OS X over Windows.

I just hate it when people say they are over priced, because if you add in all the built in out of the box features, you would most likely spend an additional $500 in software to even come close to what a Mac can do out of the box with a PC laptop.  The Mac is like the swiss army knife of laptops in some respects as well, being able to do just about anything.


----------



## vroom_skies

tlarkin said:


> I agree with you that a standard Mac may be too much for your average user, however those features are standard, you are getting a Porsche over a Ford.  Obviously, if you won't ever use those features then maybe it is not for you, unless you prefer OS X over Windows.
> 
> I just hate it when people say they are over priced, because if you add in all the built in out of the box features, you would most likely spend an additional $500 in software to even come close to what a Mac can do out of the box with a PC laptop.  The Mac is like the swiss army knife of laptops in some respects as well, being able to do just about anything.



Exactly, and the reason most people say they are over priced is because they simple don't look at the software side at all. Which is not surprising, since most of these people are coming for the PC front, when all you get is bloat ware or trials. Why would they expect Mac to be any different esp if they haven't used them before?

Also going along with that, most people I know don't even included the OS and app software in the price of a build. They'll just end up pirating it later down the line, or just using free ware.

It makes you wonder if windows actually had a good software bundle to begin with, would pirating lessen up? 
However, then you have all the free ware apps already, but many people don't use them anyways. Is that because they don't know about them, or do they get the closed source apps just because they can?

Lastly, were talking about 2k here. Most people just aren't used to throwing down that kind of cash for a machine. So they might just be saying it's over priced for the sheer fact thats it's 2k.

Bob


----------



## tlarkin

Yeah, like I mentioned earlier, Apple does not have a prosumer machine.  If they had a smaller Core 2 Duo or Core 2 Quad version of the mac pro and you were able to put whatever HD, optical, video you wanted on it you may attract that market.  I don't think that is what they are looking for either.

Having been in the IT field for almost 10 years now and going from managing 10,000 PCs to about 6,000 - 7,000 Macs I would say I have a pretty good chunk of experience on both sides.  

Open source software is nice but it doesn't compare.

CS3 > Gimp

Office > open office

Garage band > audacity

Then again you get what you pay for, and I am not saying that the open source software sucks, I am just saying commercial software is generally better.  Considering all the features that come standard in a Mac you would never need to upgrade.  Like when people say oh, you can't upgrade a mac, don't buy one.  WTF are they talking about?  You don't need to add anything really to it since almost all those features come standard.  Also, upgrading a PC is kind of moot by the time you upgrade you'll have to buy a new motherboard to support the new ram and new processor to begin with, so you are pretty much just always building a new machine.


----------



## vroom_skies

Well, by all means software you pay for should be oodles better then free ware. And in most cases free ware is only there to replace the closed software for ordinary users. If you really need PS CS3 for your profession, then by all means you'll go out and get the right software for the job. Plus, there is no way I would run major free ware in a corporate environment.  
However if you just need to do basic alterations then Gimp is more then sufficient. 

O, I know you have lots of knowledge on all this, frankly more then I could prob ever wish to have lol.

As stated, Mac has no need for an "Open" machine. In all seriousness, it would prob be more of a hindrance then a benefit.

Bob


----------



## tlarkin

vroom_skies said:


> Well, by all means software you pay for should be oodles better then free ware. And in most cases free ware is only there to replace the closed software for ordinary users. If you really need PS CS3 for your profession, then by all means you'll go out and get the right software for the job. Plus, there is no way I would run major free ware in a corporate environment.
> However if you just need to do basic alterations then Gimp is more then sufficient.
> 
> O, I know you have lots of knowledge on all this, frankly more then I could prob ever wish to have lol.
> 
> As stated, Mac has no need for an "Open" machine. In all seriousness, it would prob be more of a hindrance then a benefit.
> 
> Bob




Yup, and that is the beauty of the Mac, it can run all those free open source applications like Open office, Gimp, Neo Office, all those nice open source Linux packages via Fink commander, oh and of course windows and windows applications via cross over and the darwine project, or virtual machines, or even running it natively.  

Not everyone needs Photoshop, that is for sure, but you can't really compare it to Gimp because Adobe makes a way better product, but I guess you could compare Gimp to like the small consumer version of Photoshop (the $100 version) and I bet the Gimp would have all those features plus more.

I just really hate it when people try to say a mac is way over priced because software generally ain't free, and the free software that is out there is comparable in a sense but ultimately not comparable because of features/performance versus the pay for applications.

Just trying to distill the misinformation this thread has given about the Mac platform.

Also, btw the Windows kernel is also get this, based off of Unix.  Unix is pretty much the grandfather of all operating systems.


----------



## vroom_skies

Agreed. Great conversation 

Have fun defending the Mac name from the countless hordes of Mac haters lol. I see you being busy for a while to come lol.

Bob


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> have features no other laptop has like Ambient light senor, sudden motion sensor, FW800, ABGN wireless, blue tooth, gigabit ethernet, camera, 2gigs of ram standard (on the pro laptops), back lit keyboard, so on and so forth



I agree that Mac's come with better software, but I'm not sure on your wording in this one.  Features that NO OTHER laptop has?  My Laptop that cost me $1000 has all that minus the ALS, SMS, and backlit keyboard.  I have seen other laptops with Ambient light sensors, sudden motion sensors, and backlit keyboards as well.  Hell, the most useful of those features (SMS) I saw in a $500 thinkpad.

Not trying to start an argument, but a lot of people(The OP for one) only need to do simple tasks with their laptops, like listening to music, browse the internet, organizing pictures and doing simple editing, watching movies, and maybe write a resume or something.  A PC CAN do this stuff out of the box.  So for these people a Mac is overpriced.  Sure there are people who need to do more intensive things like editing music and video, and by all means they should go for a Mac.  But for the price, you can't beat the performance and versatility that a PC has.


----------



## vroom_skies

Ha, Speedyink

I think tlarkin and I hashed it over quite well in the previous replys.

Bob


----------



## tlarkin

speedyink said:


> I agree that Mac's come with better software, but I'm not sure on your wording in this one.  Features that NO OTHER laptop has?  My Laptop that cost me $1000 has all that minus the ALS, SMS, and backlit keyboard.  I have seen other laptops with Ambient light sensors, sudden motion sensors, and backlit keyboards as well.  Hell, the most useful of those features (SMS) I saw in a $500 thinkpad.
> 
> Not trying to start an argument, but a lot of people(The OP for one) only need to do simple tasks with their laptops, like listening to music, browse the internet, organizing pictures and doing simple editing, watching movies, and maybe write a resume or something.  A PC CAN do this stuff out of the box.  So for these people a Mac is overpriced.  Sure there are people who need to do more intensive things like editing music and video, and by all means they should go for a Mac.  But for the price, you can't beat the performance and versatility that a PC has.



I will have to disagree because a Mac will always have more quality control.  Windows is designed to run on such a broad array of hardware and developers write crappy drivers, and MS keeps changing their standards on developers on top of that, you don't get the simple "it just works," like a Mac does.

Granted, Macs are not with out their problems or faults, if they were perfect I would not have a job, but they do have a higher standard of of quality.  Also, you can not edit video and cut it to a DVD and master the audio on it all in HD like you can with a Mac out of the box.  Windows movie maker?  Are you kidding me?  Sure it has that feature, but I wouldn't call it a close substitute by any means, nor are they even comparable.  That would be like me trying to compare windows audio recorder to garage band, it just doesn't match up.

Is your IBM 1" thick and only weighs 5.4lbs and have a battery life of up to 5 hours on wireless productivity?

I have IBM laptops and have had many of them come through my way over the years as well as HP, Dell, Gateway, Acer, Sony, Fujitsu, Toshiba, so on and so forth.  When I first started off in the IT field I was repairing those at an ASP for my job.  I got see how they were built and how they worked.

I am telling you more design goes into a Mac than any other laptop and that is part of what you are paying for.  Not to mention, every other laptop company can emulate but the real question is, can they innovate?  They can copy the features but not innovate them in a such a manner that Apple has.

Also, please post links with all these laptops that come with these features standard, I would like to see them.

You don't have to be an audio or film professional to use a Mac.  You just need to prefer to use a Mac is all.


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> I will have to disagree because a Mac will always have more quality control.  Windows is designed to run on such a broad array of hardware and developers write crappy drivers, and MS keeps changing their standards on developers on top of that, you don't get the simple "it just works," like a Mac does.



Yes, Mac certainly has better quality control for the reasons you stated.  I wont argue with that. 



tlarkin said:


> Granted, Macs are not with out their problems or faults, if they were perfect I would not have a job, but they do have a higher standard of of quality.  Also, you can not edit video and cut it to a DVD and master the audio on it all in HD like you can with a Mac out of the box.  Windows movie maker?  Are you kidding me?  Sure it has that feature, but I wouldn't call it a close substitute by any means, nor are they even comparable.  That would be like me trying to compare windows audio recorder to garage band, it just doesn't match up.



I totally agree, but as I said a lot of people don't need to do that. 



tlarkin said:


> Is your IBM 1" thick and only weighs 5.4lbs and have a battery life of up to 5 hours on wireless productivity?



Not an IBM, a Dell.  It's a little over an inch thick, dunno how much it weighs, but it's not bothersome, and I could get about 4 hours on wireless productivity.  



tlarkin said:


> I am telling you more design goes into a Mac than any other laptop and that is part of what you are paying for.  Not to mention, every other laptop company can emulate but the real question is, can they innovate?  They can copy the features but not innovate them in a such a manner that Apple has.



I agree, but design isn't a huge issue for me.  I actually prefer the design of my Dell over my parents Macbook, but it's a personal preference thing.  I agree that Apple is quite innovative, but they didn't invent everything they use.  I certainly do love the click wheel they put on iPods, beats any other button scheme anyday.  



tlarkin said:


> Also, please post links with all these laptops that come with these features standard, I would like to see them.



If your looking for a laptop that has all of them they are far and few in between, but that wasn't my point.  My point was that other laptops do have the features, maybe not every one of them, but they do have the features.  I didn't fully understand your wording which made it seem like you'd never be able to find a PC with say bluetooth, or a backlit keyboard.

Anyway, I don't think Macs are overpriced, you do get what you pay for.  I was just saying that they are not the best for a budget minded person, where all of those features aren't necessary.  Like me for example.  I can live without SMS, light sensor and backlit keyboard, especially if I can save a few hundred dollars in doing so.


----------



## Sir Travis D

If everything "just works" on a mac, why does it have so many helpsites like a pc does? A mac can run windows big deal. You can't hear yourselves? The mac can RUN WINDOWS. I haven't seen a computer that "copies the features of a mac". 

The thinkpad X61s is .8" thick on it's lowest area. Only weighs 3.3 pounds.
Here is an excerpt from a review of the x61's battery.

"Users buying the X61 intend to take it with them, which makes battery life of paramount importance.  There are three battery options for the x61(s): a slim four cell, an enhanced four cell and an eight cell battery.  The review unit came with the larger eight cell battery.  It was both a blessing and a curse.  Equipped with larger eight cell battery, battery life was nothing short of spectacular.  Setting the screen to 7/15, the CPU to Low in Power Manager and WiFi on, I was able to *get six hours and thirty-three minutes of battery life* doing things like working on the review, editing photos and Internet.  Testing it was the curse.  I personally found sitting at the PC for that amount of time difficult.  I did periodically get up to stretch or do other things, ensuring the screen remained on while I was away.  If you were to dim the screen more which I think is doable or turn WiFi off, you could get even better results.  In addition to sticking out the back and adding about a half pound of weight, the larger battery also raises the bottom of the X61s a bit, not as much as say the HP dv2500, but worth mentioning.  The X61s also employs a new battery saving software called Battery Stretch." 
http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=3800&review=X61s

So, " Is your IBM 1" thick and only weighs 5.4lbs and have a battery life of up to 5 hours on wireless productivity?" - YES


----------



## tlarkin

Yeah that thing has no optical drive so its not using power to power the optical drive, it also has no trackpad?  I hate those eraser head things, and it has a freaking docking station, which is lame and takes away from it being portable in the first place.

It is a matter of opinion on preferences like we already established, but that IBM hardly compares to a Macbook out of the box, which is what my argument was to begin with.

Also, maybe you should learn about user level plists, system level plists, launchd, POSIX permissions, self contained applications, no clunky grossly bloated registry, and then try to tell me that Mac's just don't work.

Like I said previously, they do just work, I know because I support 6,000+ of them at my work for a living, and they are much easier to manage than Windows machines for sure.


----------



## Sir Travis D

@tlarkin, the air has no optical drive either... rofl.

Try telling the thinkpad community how "IBM hardly compares to a Macbook out of the box"

Also, it's not an IBM notebook. It's called LENOVO.


----------



## tlarkin

Sir Travis D said:


> @tlarkin, the air has no optical drive either... rofl.



The airbook is what it is, and is not meant to replace a laptop, it also has solid state memory.  It is a different product all together, and it will never replace the macbooks or the macbook pros.  That Lenovo hardly compares to an Airbook either, it is like some hybrid inbetween, plus the airbook has it beat on battery life and weight, not in the same class, and the Airbook I think is the thinnest fully functional laptop period, unless you count the Eee PCs.



> Try telling the thinkpad community how "IBM hardly compares to a Macbook out of the box"
> 
> Also, it's not an IBM notebook. It's called LENOVO.



Why, will they also try to argue back with pointless arguments with nothing to back up what they say?  Also, to my knowledge Lenovo was bought out by mostly the Chinese government, but IBM still owns like 10% of the shares or something like that.  It is semantics regardless though.


----------



## Sir Travis D

I'm not arguing childishly with this person. Next time don't start these things and waste hours of my homework time.


----------



## tlarkin

This whole thread is a waste of time, I actually tried to put down some correct information, you insisted on arguing with me and can not back it up.


----------



## TrainTrackHack

@tlarkin... Don't feel bad, at least I've learned a lot from this 

(I wouldn't compare macs to Porsche, though. Macs are great, but I'd say they're more like Lexus at best, but not Porsche... of course this is just an opinion.)


----------



## tlarkin

I am just saying a dual xeon work station that looks like a Mac Pro is just like a Porsche.  Very powerful, very sleek, and you pay for what you get a high performance machine.

Remember, not everyone needs to own a Porsche, in fact no one needs it, but some just prefer it.


----------



## Sir Travis D

but he's talking about a mac laptop.. not a mac desktop.. It's not like you get 8 or even 4 cores in a macbook. A mac laptop is not very powerful when they max out at an nvidia 8600 graphics card.


----------



## tlarkin

Sir Travis D said:


> but he's talking about a mac laptop.. not a mac desktop.. It's not like you get 8 or even 4 cores in a macbook. A mac laptop is not very powerful when they max out at an nvidia 8600 graphics card.



You have no idea what you are talking about.  Video cards only count in performance in two areas:  1) gaming and 2) 3D rendering.  If you want to play the newest games that the highest settings, yeah sure, a macbook pro may not be your best bet.  If you want to do 3D rendering, none of those gaming cards are what you want, you would want a render card like a Quadro.

Secondly, my analogy still stands, because the macbook pro will out perform almost every laptop on features alone.  I mean for one, it is the only laptop that can run pretty much every OS out there.  Next it has every feature built in standard.  Sure some laptops come with blue tooth, some come with ABGN wireless, some come with a back lit keyboard (I still haven't see any others that do, but I will take Speedy's word on it), some may come with FW 2 and a built in camera, but no laptop comes with all of that standard.  Plus have all of that standard and only be 1" thick.

Your arguments hold no water and you don't know what you are talking about.  8600GT video card is absolutely fine for every application except for the two I mentioned, and even then it would still get the job done just not as good as perhaps a few other video cards out there.  Why do you think Hollywood movies get edited on a freaking macbook pro?  Did you know post production editing for Transformers was done all on Macs?

Now take into consideration the innovation that goes into a Macbook Pro.  let me start by saying, the mag-safe AC-adapter connection is just pure freaking genius.  It is held by a small magnet, so if I get up and go and forget that my laptop is plugged in I don't rip it out the DC port on my laptop.  Which, trust me is a huge common problem amongst all laptop users.  Next, the ambient light sensor.  I am in my living room typing away and it is dusk and the sun starts to go down and my room darkens.  My keyboard automatically back lights, and the screen automatically adjusts brightness to compensate staying with in my power consumption settings.  I need to sync my cell phone contacts, well no problem because with isync and blue tooth I just pair them, hit sync and voila, all my contacts are instantly backed up.  I can also sync any type of PDA or of course my iPhone (if I had one).  iSync works with iCal as well as email clients and office documents.  Sure there is some left to be desired but that is because not all developers keep up with the Mac platform.  I have a digital camera and i want to take off all the pictures real quick and organize them.  iPhoto requires no drivers at all, it just works plain and simple.  I dump all of them in there and it instantly organizes them by date and whatever I want to do it further.  I can then burn photo CDs by simply dragging them into albums or create a slide show with music, then dump that slide into iMovie and I can add post effects, voice over, whatever.  Create my own custom music in Garage band and dump it into iMovie as well.  Then take that final project to iDvd and make menus for it and author it so it can play in a stand alone DVD player.

The fact that all these applications and features just work smoothly, simply, fast and efficient with a stream line and ergonomic design, I can easily compare any Mac to a Porsche.  The bottom line is, whatever you own and whatever you do with it, you want it to work and work all the time.  Apple accomplishes that in a way no one else quite does, and for that I have to tip my hat to them.  There is some left to be desired but in the end I would prefer to have quality over quantity.

End of story.

For the record I am not a Mac elitist either.  I use Linux on the PC side a lot, and I don't mind XP.  I don't like nor will I support Vista, too much DRM for my taste, not to mention software bloat.  I am not a huge fan of iTunes really, and would prefer to not use it but I have an iPod.


----------



## Sir Travis D

Most computers don't come with backlit keyboards, or bluetooth ect. But you can get most of those (-keyboard ---my m15x has it---) for less than a $100 upgrade. A $1000 laptop with those costs $1100. Not $2000 (MBP). Having a "magnet" to plug in the power cord doesn't make it a "genius" laptop. The Macbook solves lazy people's problems so you just get lazier (eg no turning lights on/off, plugging cords in, screen brightness ect). I plug my camera sd card in my laptop, and no drivers were required. 

"I dump all of them in there and it instantly organizes them by date and whatever I want to do it further. I can then burn photo CDs by simply dragging them into albums or create a slide show with music, then dump that slide into iMovie and I can add post effects, voice over, whatever. Create my own custom music in Garage band and dump it into iMovie as well. Then take that final project to iDvd and make menus for it and author it so it can play in a stand alone DVD player."

You can do all of that on a pc, but they are called windows movie maker. And it's free.
It's not just the graphics card that's better on a pc for the price. Look at these comparisons between the macbook pro and a dell xps (starting at $999)

Macbook Pro price - $1999 
2.4ghz dual core
2gb ram
200gb
8600 graphics
Apple airport extreme -same- 
--no internal modem

Dell XPS price -$1684
2.5ghz dual core
4gb ram
250gb
8600 graphics
Next gen wireless N

As you can see, the xps wins in the following categories
Processor
Ram size 
Hard drive size
Modem if you count that
for $315 less.

For the same specs on a macbook, you need to spend $2699. You save over $1000.


----------



## `PaWz

Now I bet he's gonna say that you'll need to spend that extra $1000 on equivalent software of a mac for a pc.

I don't think so


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> some come with a back lit keyboard (I still haven't see any others that do, but I will take Speedy's word on it)



May as well backup my info

http://reviews.cnet.com/laptops/alienware-area-51-m15x/4505-3121_7-32815586.html


----------



## Sir Travis D

@speedyink, nice link
my laptop 


@pawz, what's this about software? The software (besides what windows comes with eg. dvd maker, movie maker) costs about $100 to make music.. some for $40 or less.. It's not like you have to spend $600+ for a piece of software to make music.


----------



## `PaWz

I believe he said a while back in this thread that if you wanted equivalents of all the software that comes with a mac for a pc, you would have to spend so much money that it would cost as much as a macbook anyway.


----------



## Sir Travis D

PaWz, read up on things. Vista/xp you can make dvd's, cd's, movies, ect. If you want to edit/create songs, just buy one for $40-100.

Hey, what software kinds of things does a macbook come with that a pc doesn't?


----------



## `PaWz

I'm not disagreeing with you.

But like, the reviews that I saw on google are arguing that WMM is horrible compared to iMovie (actually, just horrible period.).  I don't know of any other video editing software that is comparable, but maybe you would know.


----------



## Sir Travis D

ok I didn't understand. Even if pc's can't "edit and create" songs or mix songs, download a song program or dj suite for less than $100. it's not like everything for windows is the same price as photoshop..


----------



## tlarkin

again, you have no idea what you are talking about, but here let me help you.

To make that Dell as close as spec to the standard entry level macbook pro you need to make it have this:



> Recalculating Price
> 
> XPS M1530
> Starting Price		$2,483
> Instant Savings		$599
> Subtotal		*$1,884*
> As low as $57/month
> Dell Preferred Account for PCs, laptops, and computer accessoriesApply | Learn More
> 
> 
> Discount Details
> Preliminary Ship Date: 5/13/20081
> 
> 
> Keep in Touch with Free Webcams – PCs Starting at $699 after instant savings.
> Limited time offer.
> Offer Details
> 
> 
> My Selections	All Options
> # XPS M1530
> 
> 
> Date	 	4/29/2008 3:20:50 PM Central Standard Time
> Catalog Number	 	29 Retail 19
> Catalog Number / Description	 	Product Code	 	SKU	 	Id
> System Color:
> Tuxedo Black	 	BKDMSAT	 	[313-6439]	 	2
> XPS M1530:
> Intel® Core™ 2 Duo Processor T8300 (2.4GHz/800Mhz FSB, 3MB Cache)	 	H83DHN	 	[223-5880]	 	1
> Operating System:
> Genuine Windows Vista® Ultimate Edition	 	VU3E	 	[310-9764][412-1056][420-5769][420-5924][420-6436][420-6815][420-6995][420-7590][463-2282]	 	11
> LCD, Color and camera:
> High Resolution, glossy widescreen 15.4 inch LED LCD (1440x900) & 2.0 M	 	DXGAPLC	 	[320-6693]	 	5
> Memory:
> 4GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz (2 Dimms)	 	4GB2D	 	[311-7823]	 	3
> Hard Drives:
> Size: 320GB 5400rpm SATA Hard Drive	 	320GB	 	[341-5865]	 	8
> Combo or DVD+RW Drive:
> Slot Load DVD+/-RW (DVD/CD read/write)	 	8XDVDRW	 	[313-5820][420-8183]	 	16
> Video Card:
> 256MB NVIDIA® GeForce® 8600M GT	 	25686GT	 	[320-6082]	 	6
> Wireless Networking Cards:
> Intel Next-Gen Wireless-N Mini-card	 	IP4965	 	[430-2449]	 	19
> Bluetooth and Wireless USB:
> Dell Wireless 355 Bluetooth Internal (2.0+Enhanced Data Rate)	 	H355I	 	[430-2566]	 	121
> Primary Battery:
> 56 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery	 	6BAT	 	[312-0638]	 	27
> Sound Card:
> ExpressCard Sound Blaster X-Fi® Xtreme Audio Sound Card	 	1165160	 	[A1165160]	 	17
> SECURITY:
> Finger Print Reader XPS M1530	 	FPRDR	 	[467-2337]	 	80
> Dell Printer Driver:
> Windows Vista™ Premium	 	VPN	 	[310-8628]	 	750
> Software - Adobe:
> Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 8.1	 	ADOBER	 	[420-7468]	 	15
> Processor Branding:
> Intel Centrino Core Duo Processor	 	ICNSNB	 	[310-9348]	 	749
> Doms Camera and Color:
> High Res, Black glossy widescreen 15.4 inch LED LCD (1440x900) & 2MP Ca	 	KXGTPLC	 	[320-6797][420-7715]	 	748
> Software - Antivirus:
> Trend Micro Internet Security 36-months	 	TM3Y	 	[410-1176]	 	25
> Productivity:
> No Microsoft Office	 	MSONO	 	[412-1397]	 	22
> Warranty & Service:
> 3Yr In-Home Service, Parts Labor, 24x7 Phone Support	 	SQ3OS	 	[412-0359][950-3339][960-3652][960-8710][983-5942][984-2360][988-5617][988-5618]	 	29
> Accident and Theft Protection:
> Add Accidental Damage and LoJack Theft Protection to 3Yr Warr.	 	CCLJ3	 	[412-0358][960-9188][988-0679][A0767895]	 	33
> DataSafe Online Backup:
> 10GB DataSafe Online Backup for 1Year	 	DASF10G	 	[420-7091][420-7285][987-7449][988-0099]	 	813
> Dial-Up Internet Access:
> No ISP requested	 	NISP	 	[412-0148]	 	37



This is because the screen that comes with the entry level XPS does not display the same resolution as the MBP standard, so you have to buy a more expensive screen.  Add in Vista Ultimate because of all the OS features Leopard has standard, the only one that compares is Ultimate, which costs you more money.  Next add in the full ABGN wireless card (since most of them only are BGN, and at my work we run a strict A network), that adds more money.  Optical audio out so you had to upgrade the audio.  Then it is almost comparable, or as close as you can get it and it is at a price of $1,884, and that is after a $500 dollar discount?  So, really the suggested retail price of that Dell is $2,483.00.  Which is about $500 dollars more than the entry level Mac Book Pro.  However, we are comparing at the price of $1,884.00 for argument sake.

it still lacks the magnetic AC adapter, the back lit keyboard, HDMI out, Ambient light sensor, sudden motion sensor, it has crappier speakers, multi touch track pad.  I could not find the exact weight and dimensions of the Dell, but I can only assume it is not 1" thick, and probably heavier than the MBP.  If anyone can supply data please link it.  It also does not list that is has any firewire ports, and the MBP has firewire and firewire 2 as well (400 and 800).  That is before I add the fact that iLife comes free with all new Macs, but I won't even bring software into this one, we will keep it hardware.  

I could not find any comparable data on the battery life of either, so we will just assume they are around the same ball park for arguments sake.

So take all the standard features it does not have and the price tag of nearly $1900 to make it comparable to the $1999 Macbook Pro.  I would say for a mere $150 more the Mac is way worth it.

Apple Macbook Pro spec sheet for your reference

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APP...p_mac/family/macbook_pro&sf=wHF2F2PHCCCX72KDY

The Dell XPS I built is listed above.


----------



## Sir Travis D

Dude you have no idea what you are talking about. Someone else help me talk to this wacko.

Optional blu ray with 2.4ghz processor
250 gigs
same graphics
twice the ram
or 2.5ghz processor
ALL beat the mbp

the MBP wins on the "LED" screen. Add that in and it's still cheaper. It's a $200 upgrade from the base screen on the dell. No, it doesn't need vista ultimate. Plus, you added the 320 gig hard drive


here
SYSTEM COLORTuxedo BlackeditPROCESSORIntel® Core™ 2 Duo Processor T8300 (2.4GHz/800Mhz FSB, 3MB Cache)editOPERATING SYSTEMGenuine Windows Vista® Ultimate EditioneditLCD AND CAMERAHigh Resolution, glossy widescreen 15.4 inch LED LCD (1440x900) & 2.0 MeditMEMORY4GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz (2 Dimms)editHARD DRIVESize: 250GB 5400rpm SATA Hard DriveeditINTERNAL OPTICAL DRIVESlot Load DVD+/-RW (DVD/CD read/write)editVIDEO CARD256MB NVIDIA® GeForce® 8600M GTeditWIRELESS CARDSDell Wireless 1505 Wireless-N Mini-cardeditBATTERY OPTIONS56 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary BatteryeditSOUND OPTIONSHigh Definition Audio 2.0editFINGERPRINT SCANNERFinger Print Reader XPS M1530edit

for $100 less with upgraded windows version, AND $200 more screen. Still better ram, hard drive, fingerprint reader. IDK where you got that $2500 price. It was obviously not true.


----------



## tlarkin

Sir Travis D said:


> Dude you have no idea what you are talking about. Someone else help me talk to this wacko.



Well prove me wrong man, you won't be able to, but go ahead and try.  It is only fair that you add the screen and the OS and the wireless to make it even comparable to what a Macbook Pro has standard.  It is still lacking features, and it lacks all kinds of software.  Windows Movie Maker is a joke, and WMP can't even play a DVD out of the box with out a codec installed.

The only advantage the Dell has out of the box is that it has 2 more Gigs of RAM.  Otherwise it lacks dozens of standard features that the Mac has out of the box.  You can add 2 gigs of after market ram fairly cheap too.


----------



## Sir Travis D

see my edited post. It is $100 less than the MBP with twice the ram, same processor, led screen, fingerprint reader, and better hard drive.

dude - u added 3 year lojack and 3 year support to the dell. Macbook does not come with that support. It's an upgrade, and so is lojack. Next time, read the specs.

Hey for the op's budget, my laptop is a good gaming choice. ($2092 includes tax and shipping)
My laptop has 2x the ram, faster hdd (less space), vista home premium, built in lightup keyboard and lid/touchpad areas, can lightup different colors, pulse lighting, better graphics card than the macbook laptops. Alienware is overpriced BTW.


----------



## tlarkin

Dude that warranty comes standard, there is no option to take it off.  Dell loses so much money to its competitors for making a crappy product they have to price drop and offer services like that.

I did read the specs, but whatever I mean you are 14 and most likely know everything right?

Bottom line is, for what the OP was asking, yes the Macbook Pro is one of the best laptops you can buy hands down.  If they sucked and were so over priced why would they be used for serious work?  Why would they corner the movie and music industry?

For the record, Vista Home Premium does not offer the same features as Leopard does, only Ultimate does that is why I added that for comparison.

Like I said to begin with, if you would never use those features and don't prefer Mac OS X, then a PC would be better for you, but to argue that it is over priced is asinine, incorrect and completely ignorant.


----------



## diduknowthat

Kill Bill said:


> Ok lets see
> 
> 1. iMovie does not have a crash every two hours (like WMM)
> 2. It's more orginazed than windows
> 3. Time machine - So you dont need 400 discs to back up 40days of your life
> 4. Spaces - I really use this feature alot. It can have upto twelve screens on one monitor. Just hit CTRL And the Up,Down,Left,Right button and you get a new screen and you can go back and foward
> 5. Garage band - I get alot of fun out of this - What does Windows have, Oh yea Sound recorder
> 6. No drivers need to be diggen.
> 
> Oh yea. Every person I know who has a pc got a blue screen of death atleast 13times



Eh...some of those points are kind of weak. First of all, I've never had WMM crash on me, or did I ever get a BSOD, at least not since Windows ME. Next, as for all those softwares, I can think of comparable windows software that does the exact same job, just not all preloaded onto your computer. Now this could be either good or bad, depending on how much you use them. Personally for me it's bad, as I like having the minimal softwares I need on my computer.



tlarkin said:


> You have no idea what you are talking about.  Video cards only count in performance in two areas:  1) gaming and 2) 3D rendering.  If you want to play the newest games that the highest settings, yeah sure, a macbook pro may not be your best bet.  If you want to do 3D rendering, none of those gaming cards are what you want, you would want a render card like a Quadro.
> 
> Secondly, my analogy still stands, because the macbook pro will out perform almost every laptop on features alone.  I mean for one, it is the only laptop that can run pretty much every OS out there.  Next it has every feature built in standard.  Sure some laptops come with blue tooth, some come with ABGN wireless, some come with a back lit keyboard (I still haven't see any others that do, but I will take Speedy's word on it), some may come with FW 2 and a built in camera, but no laptop comes with all of that standard.  Plus have all of that standard and only be 1" thick.
> 
> Your arguments hold no water and you don't know what you are talking about.  8600GT video card is absolutely fine for every application except for the two I mentioned, and even then it would still get the job done just not as good as perhaps a few other video cards out there.  Why do you think Hollywood movies get edited on a freaking macbook pro?  Did you know post production editing for Transformers was done all on Macs?
> 
> Now take into consideration the innovation that goes into a Macbook Pro.  let me start by saying, the mag-safe AC-adapter connection is just pure freaking genius.  It is held by a small magnet, so if I get up and go and forget that my laptop is plugged in I don't rip it out the DC port on my laptop.  Which, trust me is a huge common problem amongst all laptop users.  Next, the ambient light sensor.  I am in my living room typing away and it is dusk and the sun starts to go down and my room darkens.  My keyboard automatically back lights, and the screen automatically adjusts brightness to compensate staying with in my power consumption settings.  I need to sync my cell phone contacts, well no problem because with isync and blue tooth I just pair them, hit sync and voila, all my contacts are instantly backed up.  I can also sync any type of PDA or of course my iPhone (if I had one).  iSync works with iCal as well as email clients and office documents.  Sure there is some left to be desired but that is because not all developers keep up with the Mac platform.  I have a digital camera and i want to take off all the pictures real quick and organize them.  iPhoto requires no drivers at all, it just works plain and simple.  I dump all of them in there and it instantly organizes them by date and whatever I want to do it further.  I can then burn photo CDs by simply dragging them into albums or create a slide show with music, then dump that slide into iMovie and I can add post effects, voice over, whatever.  Create my own custom music in Garage band and dump it into iMovie as well.  Then take that final project to iDvd and make menus for it and author it so it can play in a stand alone DVD player.
> 
> The fact that all these applications and features just work smoothly, simply, fast and efficient with a stream line and ergonomic design, I can easily compare any Mac to a Porsche.  The bottom line is, whatever you own and whatever you do with it, you want it to work and work all the time.  Apple accomplishes that in a way no one else quite does, and for that I have to tip my hat to them.  There is some left to be desired but in the end I would prefer to have quality over quantity.
> 
> End of story.
> 
> For the record I am not a Mac elitist either.  I use Linux on the PC side a lot, and I don't mind XP.  I don't like nor will I support Vista, too much DRM for my taste, not to mention software bloat.  I am not a huge fan of iTunes really, and would prefer to not use it but I have an iPod.



I do agree macs have some _very_ interesting innovations but I do not think that they alone should make a computer superior. For one, I personally do not want to spend that much money on all the "extra" features, such as back lit keyboards and such. As for simplicity, Macs do make things easy, but IMO, sometimes things are made a little _too_ easy. Finally for the drivers, I seriously don't remember the last time I couldn't find drivers I needed (besides those cheap stuff I bought in china with zero support ). And lets be honest...when was the last time your digital camera needed drivers to load pictures to your PCs...at least I've never used one that needed drivers .


----------



## Sir Travis D

I chatted with one of apple's support tech, and this is what they said.






As you can see, one year warranty. Here is the webpage itself.






So there was no reason to add dell's 3 year warranty into the equation.
Dell's warranty is equal. Yet another mac user trying to convince people that apple is cheaper. *sigh*


----------



## tlarkin

No, I haven't needed drivers for much you are correct most of it is native.

Too simple?  I don't understand while people think that is a bad thing.  Would you rather have something over complicated and search around in an application or an OS for 20+ minutes trying to find some minute feature to turn on or off, or would you just rather have it work and have it streamlined?  KISS - keep it simple stupid, is the best way to do it.

My main point is, that the Dell spec for spec compared to a Mac book Pro is only $150 dollars less, give or take.  Add in all the features and innovations I mentioned, and I think all of that is easily worth $150 dollars.  Plus the no spyware, no viruses, is well worth it as well.  

That is not even including software, because iLife owns all built in windows applications hands down.  I have used both, and Windows Movie Maker is clunky and feature lacking.  I would compare iMovie HD to a lite weight version of Adobe Premiere to be honest.  Then if you want to author DVDs, well there is another $100.

You can put third party RAM in a Mac, and I never buy RAM from Apple direct, it is too expensive.  So, we will say if you bump the Macbook Pro up to 4 Gig, another 2gig stick is like $30 to $60 dollars.

My argument isn't which one is better, it is that it is not really over priced when you match it up spec for spec and include software and all the features.


----------



## Sir Travis D

did you see my earlier post about how you lied on dell's price? Dell has 1 year so does the MBP.

KISS is from the office. Next time, cite it.

On a pc, you can get a sub $1000 laptop with average specs. On a pc, you can get a laptop with the 8800 graphics card, 2.8ghz dual core processor, blu-ray options, ect. Macbooks don't have the best or worst options for configs.


----------



## tlarkin

Travis

You still don't get it.  I never said that the Apple has a three year warranty, I said that the Dell does standard, and you can not take it off for a discount it is included in the price.  I guess that is one thing Dell has over.  Considering the failure rate of a Dell versus an Apple I would say you would probably need it

I never said Apple had a three year warranty and extended warranties are pretty much a waste of money to begin with.

Look man, just admit it that they are not over priced, even when I built that Dell spec for spec I could never get it more than $150ish cheaper than the Mac, with the Dell lacking tons of features, being bigger and heavier, and proving my point all together.

They are the Porsche of the laptop world.


----------



## Sir Travis D

The dell xps notebook does not. You went to a pre-configured model. OMG. dell.com/xps, go to xps notebooks, do the $999 model, and do config.

You . I am not admitting anything about the pc being overpriced. The porche of the laptop world is voodoo pc's, alienware, hypersonic, asus, sager, and dell gaming notebooks.


----------



## tlarkin

Sir Travis D said:


> The dell xps notebook does not. You went to a pre-configured model. OMG. dell.com/xps, go to xps notebooks, do the $999 model, and do config.
> 
> You childish moron. I am not admitting anything about the pc being overpriced. The porche of the laptop world is voodoo pc's, alienware, hypersonic, asus, sager, and dell gaming notebooks.



Dude, a Porsche would not run windows, LOL, nor would they be those bulky heavy blocky chunks of plastic that is a gaming laptop.  A Porsche would perform and look sleek.  I owned a German sports car before, trust me I used to drive like a bat out of hell with it, and got several speeding tickets in the process.  If anything they (gaming PC laptops) would be more like a muscle car, big bulky, powerful, but lacks features that of a European sports car which is also fast, but sleek.

I did custom build it dude, I went through the whole build and added the higher resolution screen, the proper wireless, the proper OS comparable to Leopard.  I built it as close as possible regarding all the features.

here is where you are missing out.  You don't think you would have any need for those features so you think it is over priced, however to someone who wants those or likes those it is worth it to them.  

The bottom line is that they are not over priced.  You realize you need to upgrade the basic screen on every XPS model to get one that supports the resolutions that the MBP does standard right?  Did you even read my build?


----------



## Sir Travis D

A porche is fast. Lots of horsepower. The pro is not fast and horsepower. If you want that, get dell gaming notebook with sli 8800's and a Intel® Core™ 2 Duo Extreme X9000 processor with dual solid state drives.

FACTIONHordeeditPROCESSORIntel® Core™ 2 Duo Extreme X9000(2.8GHz/800Mhz FSB/6M L2 Cache)editOPERATING SYSTEMGenuine Windows Vista® Ultimate EditioneditMEMORY4GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHzeditHARD DRIVERAID Performance: 128GB (2x64GB) Solid State DriveeditINTERNAL OPTICAL DRIVEBlu-ray / DVD / CD Burner (Blu-ray Disc Drive)editVIDEO CARDNVIDIA® SLI™ Dual GeForce® 8800M GTX with 1GB GDDR3 MemoryeditWIRELESS CARDSIntel® PRO/Wireless 4965 a/g/n Mini CardeditMOBILE BROADBANDNo Mobile Broadband selectededitBLUETOOTH OPTIONSBuilt-in Bluetooth capability (2.0 EDR)editSOUND OPTIONSHigh Definition Audio 2.0

$7169

@larkin
I obviously read about the $200 upgrade for dell, I mentioned it on my posts. Do you read them?

I customized a voodoo pc for over $9000


----------



## tlarkin

Sir Travis D said:


> A porche is fast. Lots of horsepower. The pro is not fast and horsepower. If you want that, get dell gaming notebook with sli 8800's and a Intel® Core™ 2 Duo Extreme X9000
> processor with dual solid state drives.



SLI is a marketing scheme, go read up on it.  SLI offers no real world performance at all, and in gaming only minute performance increases and sometimes not even any.  It is ultimately a waste of money.

Either way, your points and arguments can not counter what I have proved.  The Mac is not over priced, it is competitively priced, and if someone wants one who the hell cares?  How does it affect your life if someone is using a Mac over a gaming laptop?

Gaming is a niche market man, only a small percentage of computer users are gamers, and even smaller amount of that are hardcore gamers.  With the exception of WoW, but those people have no life as South Park proved.  

You have obviously never used a Mac or spent any significant time with OS X, you are just basing your opinions off your own biases.  I provided facts and links, and while the 3 year warranty may be optional that still does not mean much, since the original Dell you posted is no where near to spec to an out of the box Macbook Pro.

They are not over priced, they are just loaded with features and software, and if I wanted to be a jerk about it I would have counted the hundreds and hundreds of dollars of software a Mac comes with that would drive the cost of the Dell probably another $1k or so.


----------



## tlarkin

Sir Travis D said:


> A porche is fast. Lots of horsepower. The pro is not fast and horsepower. If you want that, get dell gaming notebook with sli 8800's and a Intel® Core™ 2 Duo Extreme X9000 processor with dual solid state drives.
> 
> FACTIONHordeeditPROCESSORIntel® Core™ 2 Duo Extreme X9000(2.8GHz/800Mhz FSB/6M L2 Cache)editOPERATING SYSTEMGenuine Windows Vista® Ultimate EditioneditMEMORY4GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHzeditHARD DRIVERAID Performance: 128GB (2x64GB) Solid State DriveeditINTERNAL OPTICAL DRIVEBlu-ray / DVD / CD Burner (Blu-ray Disc Drive)editVIDEO CARDNVIDIA® SLI™ Dual GeForce® 8800M GTX with 1GB GDDR3 MemoryeditWIRELESS CARDSIntel® PRO/Wireless 4965 a/g/n Mini CardeditMOBILE BROADBANDNo Mobile Broadband selectededitBLUETOOTH OPTIONSBuilt-in Bluetooth capability (2.0 EDR)editSOUND OPTIONSHigh Definition Audio 2.0
> 
> $7169
> 
> @larkin
> I obviously read about the $200 upgrade for dell, I mentioned it on my posts. Do you read them?



How does that even compare to a Macbook Pro?  They aren't spec'd the same.  The Dell I posted was spec'd the same and only $150 cheaper, and that was after a $500 instant online savings.

Oh and good luck calling India when you need support for your Dell.


----------



## Sir Travis D

You said the mac is the porche. A porche is "premium". I called dell 3 times for asking about upgrades on my old dell desktop, and only got Americans. 


@u didnt go to the right site to get that price. As I said, dell.com/xps, notebooks, 15.4", $999.

Mac's have less than 12 percent of the market share. More people on this forum own a pc. I will not argue with 12 percent of the population. Go talk to my 88 percent over in the gaming section.


----------



## Ben

hehe. This is a great read.

@ Sir Travis D and diduknowthat:

The last time I checked, I had to install drivers for my canon 350D to load pictures onto my computer. Otherwise, it simply does not work with Windows. The only program I know of that recognized my camera was Picasa, and I still had issues actually getting the pictures ON to the computer.

Never had a problem with iPhoto. I don't need any drivers, and my pictures don't magically get sucked into a blackhole and never come back 

The sad part is, the drivers I have installed have only worked on my own desktop. I've tried make it work on 3 other computers. What do I get? Nadda.

I admit, not all cameras will require drivers. But it does make me very happy when it "just works".


----------



## Sir Travis D

hey mac enthusiasts, go over to the gaming section, and ask about the best mac laptop for gaming.


----------



## speedyink

Mac = Porsche

The $7000 Dell = Ferrari

My Dell = Honda prelude 4WS - cheap, relatively fast, fun to drive

Plugging in cameras is for suckers.  Memory card reader FTW!


----------



## `PaWz

I don't think anyone here is arguing that macs are a good choice when it comes to gaming.  That would be a horrible choice to make.


----------



## cohen

i think this thread needs to be put to sleep....


----------



## tlarkin

Sir Travis D said:


> You said the mac is the porche. A porche is "premium". I called dell 3 times for asking about upgrades on my old dell desktop, and only got Americans.
> 
> 
> @u didnt go to the right site to get that price. As I said, dell.com/xps, notebooks, 15.4", $999.
> 
> Mac's have less than 12 percent of the market share. More people on this forum own a pc. I will not argue with 12 percent of the population. Go talk to my 88 percent over in the gaming section.



OK, if a million people say or do something foolish it is still foolish regardless.  You are ignorant plain and simple.


----------



## Sir Travis D

Ok, I'm ignorant because I have a laptop better than any configurable macbook that costs less than the base (-shipping/tax)


----------



## tlarkin

Sir Travis D said:


> Ok, I'm ignorant because I have a laptop better than any configurable macbook that costs less than the base (-shipping/tax)



Must be nice to be 14 and have such money at your disposal.

I digress, your laptop would be a waste of money for me and for most users.  For one I hate gaming on a laptop, and I would much rather have my Macbook Pro and then a PC desktop at home to play games on.  My Macbook Pro is a work machine, and I abuse the crap out of it.  I run 5 different OSes on it via virtual machines including XP and Vista.  I also manage 25 servers and 6,000 Mac clients with it.  I also manage windows desktops with it as well, since MS released their desktop client for free for macs.  So I even manage the windows side with my mac.  Not possible with any PC really, well technically it is, but not near as robust.

I also have zero down time, no crashes, it runs faster than windows does 10 fold, and if I feel the need to play a game, I have a boot camp partition that I can boot up and play every single game that is out right now, possibly with out the settings maxed, but then again its a freaking laptop not a gaming machine.

On top of that I have tons of features that I use that you don't have and I also on top of all of that have a more sleek and more portable laptop.  I actually have to haul mine around every day.

So, yeah I also manage tons of windows clients and at my old job administered over 60 windows servers and 10,000 PCs running XP Pro.  I think I know a thing or two about both platforms and can more accurately than you describe the differences.

Macs are not over priced.

BTW, your laptop is no where near better nor lower than the base cost of a Macbook Pro.  I think you need to learn your hardware.


----------



## Sir Travis D

base macbook pro specs versus my m15x
2.4ghz dual core / 2.4ghz dual core
200gb 5400rpm / 160gb 7200rpm
nvidia 8600     / nvidia 8700
lightup keys     / lightup keys/touchpad/lid
no nameplate   / personal name plate


----------



## tlarkin

here is what that base model costs you to upgrade to a comparable MBP



> Starting Price		$1,954
> Instant Savings		$50
> Subtotal		$1,904
> As low as $58/month
> Dell Preferred Account for PCs, laptops, and computer accessoriesApply | Learn More
> 
> Update Price & Ship Date
> Discount Details
> Preliminary Ship Date: 5/13/20081
> Print Summary
> My Components
> Tuxedo Black
> Intel® Core™ 2 Duo Processor T8300 (2.4GHz/800Mhz FSB, 3MB Cache)
> Genuine Windows Vista® Ultimate Edition
> High Resolution, glossy widescreen 15.4 inch LED LCD (1440x900) & 2.0 M
> 2GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz (2 Dimms)
> Size: 250GB 5400rpm SATA Hard Drive
> Slot Load DVD+/-RW (DVD/CD read/write)
> 256MB NVIDIA® GeForce® 8600M GT
> Intel Next-Gen Wireless-N Mini-card
> Dell Wireless 355 Bluetooth Internal (2.0+Enhanced Data Rate)
> 56 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
> ExpressCard Sound Blaster X-Fi® Xtreme Audio Sound Card



Same freaking price

First off the base screen only supports a whomping 1280x800 while the MBP natively supports 1440x900, so you have to upgrade it.  I added all the hardware specs and features and kept it at 2 gigs of RAM and same video card.  Had to upgrade the sound card since MBP have higher end digital and optical audio out.  Upgrade the wireless N card.

They are the same price, and no SMS sensor, no ambient light sensor, no FW800, possibly no HDMI out (doesn't list it), etc etc

I just built that Dell just like you asked me to and it is the same freaking price.  Apple only puts high end screens in their laptop and that base model dell has a crappy ass cheap screen.

I am not sure if the online store saves this but here is the link

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=DYCWHN1&s=dhs


----------



## Sir Travis D

dude
u put vista ultimate in
ultimate only adds the ability to use videos as a background, and encrypting features.


----------



## tlarkin

Sir Travis D said:


> dude
> u put vista ultimate in
> ultimate only adds the ability to use videos as a background, and encrypting features.



tsk tsk

OS X Leopard - standard features

encrypted file system
remote desktop
the ability to connect to a domain level network
remote terminal connections


All of these features are only possible in Business or Ultimate edition.  Check your facts.


----------



## Sir Travis D

ability to set a video as the background? YEA so no ultimate.


----------



## tlarkin

Sir Travis D said:


> ability to set a video as the background? YEA so no ultimate.



you can do that and with spaces you can have multiple desktops, another built in feature that Windows doesn't have, unless you buy their add on product.

Look dude, I can't explain it to you any clearer other than I just proved to you that a Mac is not over priced.  Your Dell costs the same amount of money for the same features.


----------



## Sir Travis D

The dell has a bigger hard drive, more ram, and a faster processor. So what if it doesn't have an led screen? Most laptops don't.


----------



## tlarkin

Sir Travis D said:


> The dell has a bigger hard drive, more ram, and a faster processor. So what if it doesn't have an led screen? Most laptops don't.



Are you that dense?  That Dell I built has the same specs as the Mac, they are almost identical and they are the same price.  Same RAM, same HD, same video card, same screen, and it was the same price

Macs are Porsches with high end performance parts.  LED LCD HD screens look a billion times better.  I have one on my MBP and it is very nice.


----------



## Sir Travis D

dell xps for $1684
250 gigs
4gb ram
2.5ghz
8600 graphics


macbook pro $1999
200 gigs
2gb ram
2.4ghz
8600

I don't know where you are looking.
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=DYCWHN1&s=dhs


even with that screen, it's $1884 so the dell has the same screen and graphics card, but better processor, ram and hard drive.


----------



## tlarkin

+ vista ultimate, because OS X Leopard has all the features Ultimate does.  You can't connect to a domain level network with Home Premium, nor can you have encrypted file system support, encrypted disk support, use built in remote features.

I said you have to compare it feature to feature and to match that you have no choice to be either add on third party apps which allow those features or toss in Ultimate, and Ultimate would be cheaper.  Plus there is no third party app to my knowledge that allows windows clients to bind to a domain controller, except for the built in features in Business and Ultimate.

Plus no DRM and no retarded ass security center and no WGA.

+ blue tooth

+ ABGN wireless

Dude read what I posted, it is the closest you can get and it comes out like $50 cheaper.


----------



## diduknowthat

tlarkin said:


> No, I haven't needed drivers for much you are correct most of it is native.
> 
> Too simple?  I don't understand while people think that is a bad thing.  Would you rather have something over complicated and search around in an application or an OS for 20+ minutes trying to find some minute feature to turn on or off, or would you just rather have it work and have it streamlined?  KISS - keep it simple stupid, is the best way to do it.
> 
> My main point is, that the Dell spec for spec compared to a Mac book Pro is only $150 dollars less, give or take.  Add in all the features and innovations I mentioned, and I think all of that is easily worth $150 dollars.  Plus the no spyware, no viruses, is well worth it as well.
> 
> That is not even including software, because iLife owns all built in windows applications hands down.  I have used both, and Windows Movie Maker is clunky and feature lacking.  I would compare iMovie HD to a lite weight version of Adobe Premiere to be honest.  Then if you want to author DVDs, well there is another $100.
> 
> You can put third party RAM in a Mac, and I never buy RAM from Apple direct, it is too expensive.  So, we will say if you bump the Macbook Pro up to 4 Gig, another 2gig stick is like $30 to $60 dollars.
> 
> My argument isn't which one is better, it is that it is not really over priced when you match it up spec for spec and include software and all the features.



What I meant by too simple is that all the advance controls are neatly tucked away, at least the macs our school has is. So sometimes when I want to fine tweak something, I have to look around a lot for it. But then again, it's probably just me not being used to using macs.

And I do agree that macs come with better preloaded software. And also how big of a difference is there between the iMovie and the HD version? The emacs at our school are all loaded with iMovie, and I find it lacking some features.


----------



## Sir Travis D

oh look what I found - 25 percent off a $1350+ dell xps notebook
now look at this

I just configed this m1530 for $1999
2.4ghz
320gigs
4gb ram
8600 graphics
1440 high res display
*Blu-Ray Drive*


----------



## tlarkin

diduknowthat said:


> What I meant by too simple is that all the advance controls are neatly tucked away, at least the macs our school has is. So sometimes when I want to fine tweak something, I have to look around a lot for it. But then again, it's probably just me not being used to using macs.
> 
> And I do agree that macs come with better preloaded software. And also how big of a difference is there between the iMovie and the HD version? The emacs at our school are all loaded with iMovie, and I find it lacking some features.



You don't have access to everything probably, and that makes sense.  Everything is accessible via system preferences or under the utilities folder.  No drilling down through the mess that is the windows vista control panel.

iMovie HD has HD support for high def video and high def video recording devices and is part of iLife 08.  You probably have iLife 05 or 06 or something like that.


----------



## tlarkin

Sir Travis D said:


> oh look what I found - 25 percent off a $1350+ dell xps notebook
> now look at this
> 
> I just configed this m1530 for $1999
> 2.4ghz
> 320gigs
> 4gb ram
> 8600 graphics
> 1440 high res display
> *Blu-Ray Drive*



I knew better than to feed the teenage trolls....

The only coupon I see is a $50 off coupon on Dell's site.  I know that Dell does have some crazy deals if you can get them but they are limited and well they don't use standard parts, they use crap parts.  That is how they actually live through that mark down.   Mark up and profit margin on hardware is very small, and if they offered everyone 25% off every laptop they would go out of business, if they actually were selling them that is.


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> it has crappier speakers



Hey now, My Dell has awesome speakers in it.  Much better than my parents Macbook.


----------



## tlarkin

speedyink said:


> Hey now, My Dell has awesome speakers in it.  Much better than my parents Macbook.



Ok sure, but I am talking about a mac book pro here that is what we are comparing.

Sure macbooks do have crappy speakers, but so does every 1000 dollar and under laptop.


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> Ok sure, but I am talking about a mac book pro here that is what we are comparing.
> 
> Sure macbooks do have crappy speakers, but so does every 1000 dollar and under laptop.



My laptop was $1000, and it has good speakers...


----------



## tlarkin

speedyink said:


> My laptop was $1000, and it has good speakers...



eh, good for a laptop, or good?  In my experience laptop speakers suck until you hit the 1500+ mark and they actually put like 2" speakers in there instead of a little paper cone speaker.

Either way, I'll take your word for it as that is not a big deal.  I have already proven that Macs are not over priced.


----------



## Sir Travis D

Yet I have proven they are overpriced. Notice you can get a dell with coupons with
a bigger hard drive
more ram
Blu-ray drive
for the same price as a macbook pro.


----------



## tlarkin

Sir Travis D said:


> Yet I have proven they are overpriced. Notice you can get a dell with coupons with
> a bigger hard drive
> more ram
> Blu-ray drive
> for the same price as a macbook pro.



Show us the coupon smart guy, link it, then prove me wrong.

The fact of the matter is they are fairly priced for what you get, and you cannot dispute that.  This forum is filled with misinformed teenagers giving out false facts.  

I actually supported my findings with links and spec'd out the exact Dell you were talking about and there was only a $50.00 difference.

The fact is that you and the rest of the people that have posted on this thread are wrong, and are posting misinformation about the value of a Mac computer.

You are following this like it is a spectator sport, there is no home field advantage with either platform.  The original poster said from a non gaming perspective, and this is why I hate all the young two bit gamers who think they know everything (no offense to those who are actually level headed, you are beyond your years in maturity) when in fact you are all completely wrong in this thread.

Fact, your Dell can not do everything my MBP can do unless you spec it out and my MBP can do everything your Dell can.  I have played Crysis on my MBP, and while it did not run at full settings it was by far easily playable.  

This thread should be closed period and this forum shouldn't allow any more mac threads because all of them end up this way.  The only thing I am trying to do is give helpful information to the original poster instead of plastering it with wrong facts and biased opinions.  I have never stated my opinion yet.

My opinion is that Vista ruined windows completely and having been a windows user since probably before you could even use a computer and pretty much fully switched over to a Mac, and the only thing I use my PC is for gaming, with the exception of Linux which I use on all my PCs but my one slow ass bloated windows box.  The rest of my PCs are Macs, and they are all stable, fast, do what I want them to do and have every feature I need them to have.  If you have to game and don't want to run windows on your mac (which runs fine) or don't want all the features a mac has (you can't buy a stripped mac) then go buy a PC laptop and be done with it.  I could care less what you own or what you do with your computer, it is after all your money and your computer.  However, I will stop people from spreading ridiculous totally wrong opinions as if they were facts.

if the OP wants a Mac what the hell does it matter to you?  You came here to pick an argument and you have lost.  You are wrong, and I have proved it and the evidence is here in the thread.  They are not over priced, but you can't buy a stripped one, so if those features do not appease your needs then don't buy it.  At the same time don't say it is over priced because if you actually could build a Dell part for part exactly spec'd to a MBP, then it would cost more.  Same thing with a Mac Pro, a Mac Pro is cheaper than any dual xeon Dell desktop.


----------



## `PaWz

If he's talking about the M1530, here:

http://www.cheapstingybargains.com/cheapster/dell/

25% off all XPS M1330 and M1530 laptops

Edit: I think these deals last all the time.  They haven't gone away for a while


----------



## tlarkin

`PaWz said:


> If he's talking about the M1530, here:
> 
> http://www.cheapstingybargains.com/cheapster/dell/
> 
> 25% off all XPS M1330 and M1530 laptops



Didn't work for me when I went through the coupon link and tried to buy one, same price


----------



## Sir Travis D

Maybe it's because dell doesn't like you.

okay go here
http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/xpsnb_m1530?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

$1499 for one with 4gigs of ram, 2.4ghz, 320 gigs, 8600 graphics. $500 for blu-ray or just $1499 alone. Save $599.
it comes with 3 years warranty, the $1499 standard

If you config it, you get vista ultimate, 2.5ghz, LED display, 320gb, 4gb ram, 8600 graphics, for $1774
plus the free 3 year warranty

now if you don't mind, I need to do my homework.


----------



## `PaWz

They have a limit on how many times the coupon can be used, maybe that's why.

Edit: Oh, I think I know what you did.  You can't just click on the coupon link.  You have to build the laptop and then enter the coupon code in your cart.


----------



## tlarkin

Your link doesn't work and I still can't build that dell for less than $1900ish with out a blu ray disk, spec for spec it is the same.

will a mod please just lock this thread


----------



## Sir Travis D

Sir Travis D said:


> Maybe it's because dell doesn't like you.
> 
> okay go here
> http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/xpsnb_m1530?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs
> 
> $1499 for one with 4gigs of ram, 2.4ghz, 320 gigs, 8600 graphics. $500 for blu-ray or just $1499 alone. Save $599.
> it comes with 3 years warranty, the $1499 standard
> 
> If you config it, you get vista ultimate, 2.5ghz, LED display, 320gb, 4gb ram, 8600 graphics, for $1774
> plus the free 3 year warranty
> 
> now if you don't mind, I need to do my homework.



This is what I mean. Save $600 on the xps notebook with great configs.


----------



## tlarkin

OK, it says to click on the link and it will add it, I did it manually and built it spec for spec, here is a screen shot





$1619.25

original price = $2159.00

Macbook Pro = $1999

The Dell still is lacking some features the Mac has out of the box and that isn't including software


----------



## `PaWz

To be honest, I wouldn't consider a backlit keyboard or magnetic ac adapter a "missing feature" worth noting on the Dell.

Is the Blu Ray included in that price?


----------



## Sir Travis D

With the XPS $599 off, from the link I posted twice up there, (http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/xpsnb_m1530?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs) $1999 includes 320gigs, 4gb ram, vista ultimate, led screen, 2.4ghz I think (2.4 or 2.5), and 8600 graphics AND BLU-RAY. 

$1499 for the same thing without blu-ray


----------



## tlarkin

`PaWz said:


> To be honest, I wouldn't consider a backlit keyboard or magnetic ac adapter a "missing feature" worth noting on the Dell.
> 
> Is the Blu Ray included in that price?



No that is built spec for spec. no blu ray

It is missing the ambient light sensor, the SMS sensor, Firewire 800, no HD video output, multi touch track pad (no mention of that on the Dell), and of course all the bundled software that the Mac comes with.  That is all well worth easily $300.00.

They both have a standard 1 year warranty, same screen, same processor, same amount of RAM, I didn't upgrade the HD in the Dell, add another $50 to 75 to make it a 200 gig, not a big deal, and same video card, with most of the same spec'd features.

Again I rest my case.

#EDIT

Oh and the MBP is lighter and thinner, that to me is a feature of a laptop since I actually carry mine around all day every day for work.


----------



## `PaWz

I wouldn't buy a blu ray burner for that.  You can save $200 by buying a blu ray burner for your desktop computer, if you have one.


----------



## Sir Travis D

$1999 for blu-ray

1.go to this link
http://www.dell.com/content/default.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&redirect=1

2. then go to browse laptops

3. click on the m1530

4. There are a 4 models to choose from, the rightmost being the $1499 model.

5. Click "build yours" on the $1499 model

6. Add the blu-ray option and look at the specs 

So from my link it's $1499 for
320gigs/vista premium (not ultimate sorry)/dvd burner/high res/2.4ghz/8600

If you add the blu-ray, it's $500 more or upgrade the specs.

The $1499 model comes with 3 years standard warranty.


----------



## `PaWz

tlarkin said:


> No that is built spec for spec. no blu ray
> 
> It is missing the ambient light sensor, the SMS sensor, Firewire 800, no HD video output, multi touch track pad (no mention of that on the Dell), and of course all the bundled software that the Mac comes with.  That is all well worth easily $300.00.
> 
> They both have a standard 1 year warranty, same screen, same processor, same amount of RAM, I didn't upgrade the HD in the Dell, add another $50 to 75 to make it a 200 gig, not a big deal, and same video card, with most of the same spec'd features.
> 
> Again I rest my case.


My cheaper Inspiron has HDMI and firewire.  I wonder why the XPS series don't have those yet.


----------



## tlarkin

`PaWz said:


> My cheaper Inspiron has HDMI and firewire.  I wonder why the XPS series don't have those yet.



That is probably how they get away with allowing 25% off coupons, chunk off a few of the more pricey parts/features and then you can allow more of a discount.  With out the coupon though the Dell is like almost $200 more than the Mac, so what does that tell you about their pricing to begin with?


----------



## Sir Travis D

As you can see, 4gb ram/2.4ghz/vista home premium/dvd burner/8600/320gigs for $1499







The xps for $1499 has the following better than the $1999 macbook pro
ram/hard drive/possibly better blu-ray or better processor depending on upgrades


----------



## `PaWz

tlarkin said:


> That is probably how they get away with allowing 25% off coupons, chunk off a few of the more pricey parts/features and then you can allow more of a discount.  With out the coupon though the Dell is like almost $200 more than the Mac, so what does that tell you about their pricing to begin with?


I think dell keeps the price up hoping that some of the customers won't see the coupons, so they pay full price, which is a little extra money for Dell


----------



## tlarkin

Travis,

You are not listening to all the features of a Mac.  You are still missing some key built in features that you have to add in the Dell

1)  Bluetooth
2)  ABGN wireless
3)  the higher quality sound card that is not software based
4)  Firewire 800 (not 400, 800)
5)  HD video out (as well as composite via adapter)


Those are not installable (some are, but some aren't) or listed options on the Dell website, I know because I browsed for them.  You did get the screen finally, and I also don't see any blu ray on there like you were saying earlier.


----------



## tlarkin

`PaWz said:


> I think dell keeps the price up hoping that some of the customers won't see the coupons, so they pay full price, which is a little extra money for Dell
> 
> I believe I have made my share of ignorant comments, and I'm sorry.  I really do not know enough about Mac's software bundle or the difference between MacOS and Vista to make an intelligent opinion.



It also helps their margin when people do use the coupons.  Dells sales have plummeted over the last two years, and Apple's laptop sales have beat out almost every PC manufacturer for the past two years.  I think Acer and Lenovo beat out Apple in overall sales, but as far as growth percentage goes Apple is the number 1 selling laptop right now.  

I mean they didn't get 30 billion dollars in their bank account for selling a crap product.  Granted some of that was from iTunes and iPods and iPhones, but never the less their laptops are selling a lot more these days.

They went from a 6% market share to an 11ish% market share in like 2 years, that is a huge increase.  Vista is killing PC sales.  It is only a matter of time before they catch up with the other PC companies.



> I believe I have made my share of ignorant comments, and I'm sorry. I really do not know enough about Mac's software bundle or the difference between MacOS and Vista to make an intelligent opinion. I still do stand by the fact that if you just need to watch videos, play music/burn dvds, and browse the web, there is no reason to pay the extra cash for the software that they won't use (which I think you would agree with too)



The differences are huge when it comes to security, and windows xp and vista are actually based off a Unix kernel to begin with, but that is totally beside the point (Unix is like the grandfather of every OS).  If you just want to do basic stuff and want a mac, you can buy a Macbook.  It comes down to personal preference and Apple is getting more competitive each year.  Like I said, I used to be a windows only user until I took the time to learn Linux and Unix and now I really do like OS X a lot more than windows, especially Vista.  From an administration side, Unix is a godsend, I can shell script automated tasks for days.  I can do the work of 3 people that would normally take days in hours with one simple shell script and network policies.  

You could easily just buy a cheap Eee PC if you wanted basics and run Linux, or spend $100 more and buy a copy of windows XP pro.

Like I said, the OP wants to create video and create music (is what I gathered) and the Mac is way better geared towards that out of the box is all.  It is all a preference, and I could care less what you use, however I do care that idiots and elitists spread all kinds of ignorance on the subject.  Trust me I have a friend who tells me macs suck all the time, but he doesn't even know that much about Mac to begin with.  I have to tell him to shut up and ignore him.  Like I said, I don't hate windows (except for vista) and I have used it since 3.11 and DOS, and I have chosen to mainly use Macs now as my main computers at work, and sometimes at home as well.  It was a choice I made.   Then again i didn't pay for my laptop, my work bought it for me, so I chose a mac book pro.


----------



## Sir Travis D

can you see at all? Go to the link, look at the $1499 model. Put the blu-ray on it. makes it $1999 - also the $1499 comes with standard 3 year warranty

for $25 it's the same wireless card as the macbook pro
also, the $1499 includes standard bluetooth seen here
Also, dell xps has a built in fingerprint reader


----------



## `PaWz

The one thing I think Apple really failed at was the iPod.


----------



## Sir Travis D

So, for $500 less, the dell xps beats the macbook pro in the following areas
ram, hard drive, fingerprint reader, warranty ($1499 comes with 3 years standard)
For less than $1999, it beats the macbook pro in the following areas
ram, hard drive, fingerprint reader, processor, screen (tie)


----------



## tlarkin

`PaWz said:


> The one thing I think Apple really failed at was the iPod.



Why? It is way better than any other product out there.  I agree that iTunes sucks, but I ended up buying my first iPod recently and got an 8gig 3rd gen nano, and it rocks.


----------



## tlarkin

Sir Travis D said:


> So, for $500 less, the dell xps beats the macbook pro in the following areas
> ram, hard drive, fingerprint reader, warranty ($1499 comes with 3 years standard)
> For less than $1999, it beats the macbook pro in the following areas
> ram, hard drive, fingerprint reader, processor, screen (tie)



Isn't it past your bed time, I already proved you wrong with an actual screen shot of a shopping cart, not the configuration screen.


----------



## `PaWz

tlarkin said:


> Why? It is way better than any other product out there.  I agree that iTunes sucks, but I ended up buying my first iPod recently and got an 8gig 3rd gen nano, and it rocks.


Because you can get much better for your money.

For example, if you bought the Creative Zen Vision:M, you get the best sound quality you can possibly find for an MP3 player, a sound recorder, radio, better battery life, and 262k colors for video (rather than 64k for the iPod, but who would want to watch videos on a screen that small anyway?), as well as having compatibility with much more video codecs than the iPod.  The only major con (certainly not to me) is that it's about twice as thick.

With the iPod, you would have to buy an extra radio and voice recorder attachment, and it has subpar audio quality compared to the Zen's.


----------



## Sir Travis D

dude - you were at the wrong site
Just because the xps has better everything but "software" for the price, you get upset at me? Dude - my screenshot was from the ACTUAL config.


----------



## Sir Travis D

There - are you happy?
Guys, I have to go soon if tlarkin says the macbook pro is better than the xps, show him this
The Dell XPS notebook for $1499 compares with the $1999 macbook pro like this

Dell Xps - 4gb ram
Macbook - 2gb ram

Dell Xps - 320gb hard drive
Macbook - 200gb hard drive

Dell Xps -Graphics Card - 8600
Macbook -Graphics Card - 8600

Dell Xps - Processor 2.4ghz
Macbook - Processor 2.4ghz

Dell Xps - Bluetooth/fingerprint reader
Macbook - Bluetooth

For the processor, you can beat the macbook with a slight upgrade, leaving the xps still over $200 cheaper. The Dell Xps would then win in the following categories for $200+ less -    Ram, Processor, Hard Drive, Fingerprint Reader, warranty length, price
The macbook wins in the following categories - screen type, one port


----------



## tlarkin

`PaWz said:


> Because you can get much better for your money.
> 
> For example, if you bought the Creative Zen Vision:M, you get the best sound quality you can possibly find for an MP3 player, a sound recorder, radio, better battery life, and 262k colors for video (rather than 64k for the iPod, but who would want to watch videos on a screen that small anyway?), as well as having compatibility with much more video codecs than the iPod.  The only major con (certainly not to me) is that it's about twice as thick.
> 
> With the iPod, you would have to buy an extra radio and voice recorder attachment



Yeah, but I love how thin my nano is, and I need solid state because I work out with it.  I also think the interface is easy to use, and I can navigate it with out looking at it.

I do dislike iTunes though.  I don't need it for videos, I have a laptop for that if need be.  8 gigs of music is all I really wanted.  It also weighs nothing and I got it for only $130, on sale, so it was a no brainier in my mind.

i really only wanted a portable MP3 player.  If I wanted more I would have got an iPod touch, which does like everything and is sleek and thin.


----------



## tlarkin

Travis

Refer to post #135, I already configured that exact model to match spec for spec and it is a total cost of - 1619.25 with your coupon.  I posted a screen shot as well, of the check out cart with the coupon being applied.


----------



## Sir Travis D

well you were at a different place

go here http://www.dell.com/content/default.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&redirect=1
do browse laptops
select xps 1530
goto the model on the right
and you'll see it


----------



## `PaWz

Yeah, I hear ya.  But for me I couldn't care less if it weighed a pound and looked like something deformed.  I never listen to music while working out, it always annoys me.

And by Solid state, is that the same thing as flash-based harddrives?


----------



## Sir Travis D

zomg tlarkin
you configed the 1330 not the 1530
do the links I told u in my last post to get it


----------



## tlarkin

LOL No I was at the same freaking place my screen shot is from the same freaking web page as yours.

DId you add in Vista Ultimate and the LED high res screen?  I don't think you did.

Trust me, I can safely say I most likely know a lot more than you about computers, when you become my age you may know more than me then, but I have been doing this stuff professionally for almost a decade man.  I built it spec for spec and the costs with the discounts of that model with the coupon and instant savings applied is on post #135.


----------



## Sir Travis D

dude - ur link in post 135 was the xps 1330 - that's a 13.3 inch screen
you need to config the 1530 with the links I posted on #157


(250th post gold member - thanks people for letting help here)


----------



## Sir Travis D

Well, I have posted multiple screenshots that show how the 1530, when configured correctly, beats the mbp in ram, hard drive, processor, and price. $1499 for the same processor as the mbp, same graphics card as the mbp. $1499 config has better warranty, 3 year antivirus, better ram, hard drive, fingerprint reader.








If people can't follow 4 simple directions to get to this page, they are computer illiterate.


----------



## tlarkin

You are still missing features....

yeah i did grab the 13" by accident, oh well here is what is really is with coupons





Notice it says retail price = 2448

savings = 599 (50 + 25% off)

total = 1849


----------



## `PaWz

I don't see a 320GB option when I go to it ...

I assume you added software and warranty options?  I couldn't get over $1820 with the specs on the picture (I didn't use the coupon)


----------



## tlarkin

`PaWz said:


> I don't see a 320GB option when I go to it ...
> 
> I assume you added software and warranty options?  I couldn't get over $1820 with the specs on the picture without the coupon



I added Vista ultimate, the better screen, the ABGN wireless, the hardware sound card, bluetooth (maybe that came standard) and it came out to that much with those savings, it is all listed there, I did not add any software.

I went through his link which has the same model with the coupon added.  I didn't have any HD options, and I think that may be a stipulation of the coupon itself.  If you read the fine print the coupons only apply to certain configurations I think.


----------



## `PaWz

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3015/35112904jv6.jpg
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7534/87270937fs1.jpg

This is what I got... The coupon should work regardless of the configuration. (as long as it's above the required price)


----------



## cohen

have a look at this for my system information and much it all cost


----------



## tlarkin

`PaWz said:


> http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3015/35112904jv6.jpg
> http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7534/87270937fs1.jpg
> 
> This is what I got... The coupon should work regardless of the configuration. (as long as it's above the required price)



I read a few coupons that only applied if you chose certain shipping stipulations.  While I went through his links and built the same thing he did and got a different price than him.

Either way, those coupons can't be held in black in white because they are limited, and when they expire you will be subjected to way more expensive prices.  Apple, doesn't ever really offer any coupons or discounts, other than if you buy in bulk or are a student (educational discount) which would apply to all of you and me as well, since I work for a school district as their network admin.

I am not sure what happened, I followed his link and got the same results he did, 4 gig of RAM and 320 gig HD as only options and when I added the other needed features I got what I got.

Dell's website for one sure does suck donkey balls.


----------



## CPTMuller

Holy crap this thread exploded. Tlarkin, while you have a valid point that there are more "advanced" features on the MBP, granted the price difference, and the lack of support for a lot of windows applications you will tack on another 70-150$ for a copy of windows to use on the MBP. Both of you seem have a case of tunnelvision... the MBP has some nice idiot-proofing done to it VIA sensors and the ac adapter, where as the dell has some performance upgrades and a hardware right click BUTTON. Spaces is a valid counterpoint except for the fact that you can use 3rd party software to do it for free on a PC. Also, if you are going to insist that with your MBP you would be using 3rd party ram, then you have to assume that for the Dell.

And at Sir Travis D, you sound like a broken record, if he obviously won't listen to your points, either elaborate more clearly, make a final statement and stoop responding, or bring up another topic. In the context of what the OP wants, he could get either a mac or a PC, with the PC he would buy third party software, and with the mac he would pay a higher base price for a stylish case and some software at which point it comes down to being stylish, or having power.


----------



## tlarkin

CPTMuller said:


> Holy crap this thread exploded. Tlarkin, while you have a valid point that there are more "advanced" features on the MBP, granted the price difference, and the lack of support for a lot of windows applications you will tack on another 70-150$ for a copy of windows to use on the MBP. Both of you seem have a case of tunnelvision... the MBP has some nice idiot-proofing done to it VIA sensors and the ac adapter, where as the dell has some performance upgrades and a hardware right click BUTTON.   Spaces is a valid counterpoint except for the fact that you can use 3rd party software to do it for free on a PC. Also, if you are going to insist that with your MBP you would be using 3rd party ram, then you have to assume that for the Dell.



Please tell me what a PC can do that a Mac can not software wise?  There is always a Mac version or a Mac alternative, period.  With the exception of some video games, and that will change soon.  Part of the problem was, he was trying to pass off his Dell with a crappier screen, and I simply pointed out and proved from a hardware perspective they are not over price, they are just high end.  Oh, and by the way, you can right click in OS X, and have been able to since 2001 when OS X 10.0 came out, so please don't act like that isn't possible.  I believe the multiple desktop software from microsoft is not free, at least it did not used to be at all.  



> And at Sir Travis D, you sound like a broken record, if he obviously won't listen to your points, either elaborate more clearly, make a final statement and stoop responding, or bring up another topic. In the context of what the OP wants, he could get either a mac or a PC, with the PC he would buy third party software, and with the mac he would pay a higher base price for a stylish case and some software at which point it comes down to being stylish, or having power.



No, I listened to his point and he makes the same point you do, oh those features are just little things, and oh there is no right click, and oh there is no third party software support.  All of which are plainly wrong.

I have stated numerous times I don't hate PCs, and in fact I have a few of them myself including an HP laptop.  I am just pointing out the misinformation of this thread.  I have used windows and Mac machines professionally since 1999.  I use them both.  Like I said, who gives a rat ass if the Original poster wants to buy a Mac?  

I could go back and rip out every retarded quote from every person on this forum and prove it wrong.  I can justify my argument by the same justification people on this forum use for vista.  People complain about it bash it and have never used it, don't understand it, or have such a limited knowledge can't base an honest opinion to begin with.

Plain and simple, no one on this forum knows the Macintosh platform really maybe besides a few posters.  The rest of the people on this forum hate them because they are gamers, or they hate their commercials, or they think that you can't right click with a mouse.  All of which is completely un true.

I am far from tunnel vision, I am actually one of the more unbiased computer users out there.  I shoot down mac elitists all the time when they try to act like their computers are so ungodly awesome.  Like I said earlier, there is no reason to follow around a computer platform like a spectator sport, there is no home team advantage and they aren't paying you to like their product.  I have stated why you may want to get a PC and the choice is up to you.

The MacBook Pro offers so many features standard that no other laptops really do, plus it is only 1" thick, has a very nice high quality LED screen, runs fast and quiet, is light weight, and has great battery life.  All of that is a feature of a laptop.  I have to carry around a laptop every day, along with tools, a CD/DVD case, several external HDs, cables, etc.  My backpack weighs probably 40lbs all together.  Having a nice light weight 1" thick 15" Macbook Pro, is a benefit to me.

Seriously, this thread should just be locked.


----------



## CPTMuller

tlarkin said:


> Please tell me what a PC can do that a Mac can not software wise?  There is always a Mac version or a Mac alternative, period.  With the exception of some video games, and that will change soon.



<-- Gamer, sorry for the offense, you have to realize that it is a significant and growing trend that definitely can be used as an argument against the mac platform.



> No, I listened to his point and he makes the same point you do, oh those features are just little things, and oh there is no right click, and oh there is no third party software support. All of which are plainly wrong.


There is third party support, but not for games, and some software (drivers for the G15, last I checked, some mice ETC). 

The thing is when it boils down to it, it is a matter of personal preference. The Mac sacrafices hardware in favor of design (aesthetics and the screen being LED backlit) and software. However when I buy a computer, I look for the best performance for my dollar, software being an afterthought, though this may be because I have acess to the CS3 suite, and use Open office. Anyhow I will admit this thread is pretty out of hand.


----------



## tlarkin

CPTMuller said:


> <-- Gamer, sorry for the offense, you have to realize that it is a significant and growing trend that definitely can be used as an argument against the mac platform.
> 
> 
> There is third party support, but not for games, and some software (drivers for the G15, last I checked, some mice ETC).



Well, this is for one hardly Apple's fault and I agree with you on it to some extent.  However, the gaming market is getting better and better with Apple, and some companies are now developing for the Mac platform.  Gaming is still a niche in the market though.  Your average computer user is not a gamer, and it may be growing but so is console gaming.  Most computer users are casual or non gamers what so ever.  10.5 released an API called core animation which can be compared to DX in some aspects, so Apple is tossing the developers a bone finally.  Too bad this is one subject that even gets the Mac users mad, because they want to play games as well.  It will change, maybe not this year, but it will change I know it will.



> The thing is when it boils down to it, it is a matter of personal preference. The Mac sacrafices hardware in favor of design (aesthetics and the screen being LED backlit) and software. However when I buy a computer, I look for the best performance for my dollar, software being an afterthought, though this may be because I have acess to the CS3 suite, and use Open office. Anyhow I will admit this thread is pretty out of hand.



It doesn't really sacrifice hardware though, they are high end machines to begin with.   Plus Leopard takes less resources to run than Windows.  Are you talking about being able to upgrade a machine?  I think that is what you are trying to say, is you can't upgrade a Mac, and while this is true in some respects it is false in others.  I mean, you can't compare a machine you assembled off of newegg to a Mac Pro desktop for one, those are freaking dual xeons.   The cheapest I have seen those xeons is like $750 a piece, which means if you actually did build your own you are tossing $1400 in the processors alone.  People don't realize that.

Apple also designs the whole system from the hardware up.  They design their hardware to run their OS, and then design their OS to run on their hardware, which gives you less bloat and more performance.  Microsoft is forced to develop a broad OS that will run on a variety of hardware configurations which leaves more bloat, more margin for error and they can not optimize it as well.   So, you are in fact sacrificing quality for quantity.

Sure, you are limited with a Mac but it is a closed platform with more quality control, and their systems spec for spec hardware wise are not outrageously over priced.  If you count the bundled software then they are actually cheaper, because if you were to buy a base laptop, then add all the hardware features (or desktop for that matter) then add all the software it wouldn't compare price range.

Ultimately you can almost not even compare a Mac to a windows machines because they are two different beasts.  however, you have to compare them because they are in fact all computers.  

Plus when you look at upgrading your PC if you build your own you are most likely in the same boat I am.  I have a custom built PC I built a few years back for gaming and it runs windows.  Well, now the motherboard is out of date and the memory is slower.  So, if I were to upgrade my machine, I would have to buy a new motherboard to support the new socket processors, a new video card (upgrade), a new PSU to support the new processor, mobo and video card, new RAM with higher speed.  Ultimately I am building a new PC every time, so really upgrading is a moot point, unless you are one of those people that buys a new part for your computer every 3 months.  Which I am not one of those people.  

So, I fail to see why people think that with Macintosh you are sacrificing hardware for looks?  That just doesn't make any sense at all.


----------



## CPTMuller

Apple doesn't offer a Mid-Range computer I guess is what I was really getting at. There is a huge jump from the high end iMac to the Xeon beasts. Admittedly the computer we built 4 years ago has a grand total of like 3 parts you could recycle into a new computer (Hard drive cd drive, sound card). The cheapest iMac I could find with a respectable gaming graphics card was 1949 with a basic, although decent computer behind it.
My original point was that people seem to praise the iLife software suite that is bundled with Macs, even though they will end up replacing a lot of it.

# 2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
# 2GB 800MHz DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB
# NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GS w/512MB GDDR3
# 320GB Serial ATA Drive
# Apple Mighty Mouse
# Apple Keyboard (English) + User's Guide
# SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
# 24-inch glossy widescreen LCD
# AirPort Extreme
# Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR

--$1,949.00

That card will be hard pressed to preform well with the newer games at the LCDs native resolution, not to mention that it is a relatively average machine OTHER THAN the fact that it is so nicely tucked away behind an LCD panel, hence my understanding that you are paying more for the aesthetics than the hardware. The LCD is probably the most surprising part of the computer being 1920 by 1200.

~Edit, Question, do the components actually run at stock speeds at all times in these computers? I dont see how they could keep an 8800gs cool inside one of those?


----------



## tlarkin

They don't underclock the cards to may knowledge.

iMac is a different beast than a desktop though and to be fair you could only compare it to other all-in-one systems.

I agree though about not having a C2D mid range tower, that is one thing Apple does not have, and I wish they would have that.

You are paying for the engineering partly to make it that sleek and thin, and it takes up so little space, which is a factor to some people.


----------



## CPTMuller

tlarkin said:


> They don't underclock the cards to may knowledge.
> 
> iMac is a different beast than a desktop though and to be fair you could only compare it to other all-in-one systems.
> 
> I agree though about not having a C2D mid range tower, that is one thing Apple does not have, and I wish they would have that.
> 
> You are paying for the engineering partly to make it that sleek and thin, and it takes up so little space, which is a factor to some people.



Yeah, but this is a computer enthusiast website, you cant come preaching to the wrong choir and accept people to readily agree that iMac's are overpriced when that is one factor most commonly ignored. I've seen everything but a Mac at lan parties, the closest was a PC in a modded Mac tower for the simple fact that the hardware is just not where it needs to be for even most casual gamers.


Any insight as far as how they manage temps in the iMacs? I am seriously curious about that.


----------



## tlarkin

CPTMuller said:


> Yeah, but this is a computer enthusiast website, you cant come preaching to the wrong choir and accept people to readily agree that iMac's are overpriced when that is one factor most commonly ignored. I've seen everything but a Mac at lan parties, the closest was a PC in a modded Mac tower for the simple fact that the hardware is just not where it needs to be for even most casual gamers.
> 
> 
> Any insight as far as how they manage temps in the iMacs? I am seriously curious about that.



No this is a public computer forum that has a wide range of computer users and the original poster was asking advice and was most likely a novice on the subject.  You are trying to preach to me something you don't understand, macintosh.  LAN parties?  What does that have to do with the topic at hand?  Again, you are assuming everyone is a gamer.  This topic was about how the Mac can be used for audio and video, and no one answered the OPs question properly or with the right knowledge.

If a billion people say something foolish, it is still foolish.

The cooling is like ram air in a car, sucks it right in and exhausts it right out.  It is controlled at the firmware level, since Macintosh adopted the EFI platform their firmware level applications are much more robust and their smart fans are a lot smarter.  EFI is 100s of times more robust and better than the legacy BIOS that PCs run.  It does not allow hot air to resonate inside the machine.  The engineering that went behind it is beyond me, I think they dropped acid and then came up with the iMac to be honest.


----------



## Kill Bill

Sir Travis D said:


> hey mac enthusiasts, go over to the gaming section, and ask about the best mac laptop for gaming.



Dude you are slow. Thanks to: Bootcamp,Vmware fusion,Parrael, And more we dont need a pc to play video games


----------



## Kill Bill

Sir Travis D said:


> There - are you happy?
> Guys, I have to go soon if tlarkin says the macbook pro is better than the xps, show him this
> The Dell XPS notebook for $1499 compares with the $1999 macbook pro like this
> 
> Dell Xps - 4gb ram
> Macbook - 2gb ram
> 
> Dell Xps - 320gb hard drive
> Macbook - 200gb hard drive
> 
> Dell Xps -Graphics Card - 8600
> Macbook -Graphics Card - 8600
> 
> Dell Xps - Processor 2.4ghz
> Macbook - Processor 2.4ghz
> 
> Dell Xps - Bluetooth/fingerprint reader
> Macbook - Bluetooth
> 
> For the processor, you can beat the macbook with a slight upgrade, leaving the xps still over $200 cheaper. The Dell Xps would then win in the following categories for $200+ less -    Ram, Processor, Hard Drive, Fingerprint Reader, warranty length, price
> The macbook wins in the following categories - screen type, one port


Finger print readers are nothing but trouble, I know a cousin who has a toshiba laptop < alot better than hell agh dell and everytime he tried to login it would give nothing but errors, Also does the xps have the multi touch mouse pad


----------



## tlarkin

You still can't compare an iMac to a build your own desktop, and if you do build it you better include the price of that 20" LED high definition LCD monitor, which would cost you a lot to have, that an iMac has standard.

Gaming is a niche market, just like Linux is.  The Macintosh desktop is one designed to do a variety of applications, and not really diving into the niche market, until you get to higher end.  Why do you think most of Hollywood and the Recording Industry run off of Macs?  If they were such crappy machines why would billion dollar a year industries use them as the standard?  Obviously, money is no bound to those giant multimedia corporations they have the money, and they can buy the best systems they want, and they choose to use the Mac platform.


----------



## `PaWz

Kill Bill said:


> Dude you are slow. Thanks to: Bootcamp,Vmware fusion,Parrael, And more we dont need a pc to play video games


If you want to play videogames with a decent video card, you have no choice but to go with PC

You can custom build a great gaming computer with a 9800GTX and a good 22" monitor for ~$1200.  Spending $2,000 upwards, the iMac doesn't even have a comparable videocard


----------



## tlarkin

`PaWz said:


> If you want to play videogames with a decent video card, you have no choice but to go with PC
> 
> You can custom build a great gaming computer with a 8800GTX and a good 22" monitor for ~$1400.  Spending $2,000 upwards, the iMac doesn't even have a comparable videocard



What game requires that video card that is currently out?  the 8600GT to my knowledge will run every single video game out there right now on the market.  perhaps not a full setttings, but then again, that is all subjective on how much the  human mind and eyes can notice that much difference.

There is no difference in game play between 60fps and 90fps, the mind can not tell the difference.

Now, between 15fps and 40fps, you bet you can easily tell the difference.


----------



## `PaWz

tlarkin said:


> What game requires that video card that is currently out?  the 8600GT to my knowledge will run every single video game out there right now on the market.  perhaps not a full setttings, but then again, that is all subjective on how much the  human mind and eyes can notice that much difference.


I'm talking about people who want to put their games on high settings.  The 8600GT cannot play modern PC games that well.  It can't even max out Call of Duty 4 and BioShock with decent framerates.  Especially if you want to have comparable graphics to a proprietary system (Xbox 360, PS3), you will need the extra power.


----------



## Kill Bill

`PaWz said:


> If you want to play videogames with a decent video card, you have no choice but to go with PC
> 
> You can custom build a great gaming computer with a 9800GTX and a good 22" monitor for ~$1200.  Spending $2,000 upwards, the iMac doesn't even have a comparable videocard



Haha. I'm sure a 8800GS on a imac will do normal gaming
the 8600m GT on the macbook pro will be fine for normal/heavy gaming with good FPS
The Mac Pro with the 8800GT 512mb will do normal/heavy gaming with pleasure

+ Macs have multitouch on their mouses (laptops anyway)


----------



## tlarkin

`PaWz said:


> I'm talking about people who want to put their games on high settings.  The 8600GT cannot play modern PC games that well.  It can't even max out Call of Duty 4 and BioShock with decent framerates.  Especially if you want to have comparable graphics to a proprietary system (Xbox 360, PS3), you will need the extra power.



That only applies to gamers.  Most people could care less as long as it runs.  And yes, the 8600GT can run all those games just freaking fine.  I have a 9800 Pro and I ran BioShock on my PC with it, and it didn't run super fast but it was easily playable at lower resolutions.

Gaming is all about marketing man, not real world results.  You can easily play COD4 on that video card.  In fact if you wanted to get technical about it you can probably get a tool like riva tuner and unlock those pipes and make your 8600GT run faster and better on the windows side if need be.


----------



## `PaWz

tlarkin said:


> That only applies to gamers.  Most people could care less as long as it runs.  And yes, the 8600GT can run all those games just freaking fine.  I have a 9800 Pro and I ran BioShock on my PC with it, and it didn't run super fast but it was easily playable at lower resolutions.


Yes, I was talking about 'gamers.'  I want the best graphics and performance I can afford


----------



## `PaWz

Kill Bill said:


> Haha. I'm sure a 8800GS on a imac will do normal gaming
> the 8600m GT on the macbook pro will be fine for normal/heavy gaming with good FPS_*
> The Mac Pro with the 8800GT 512mb will do normal/heavy gaming with pleasure*_
> 
> + Macs have multitouch on their mouses (laptops anyway)


Are you kidding me?  Why the hell would I pay $2,800 upwards just for an 8800GT?

Edit: ok, you can reduce the price to $2,300 if you choose a single quad-core processor.  That's still overkill if you just want to game


----------



## tlarkin

`PaWz said:


> Yes, I was talking about 'gamers.'



Look, let me explain this more clearly, and perhaps you all will understand and I do sympathize because I used to be a hard core gamer and build your own PC guy to the bone back in the 90s when I was a teenager.  Back when LAN games were first being done and a HUB cost several hundred dollars and a switch was just way too expensive.

Video cards only boost performance in two areas like I mentioned before hand.  They boost performance in video gaming, and 3D rendering.  There are two separate cards you get, one for each task.  you wouldn't want an 8800GTX for rendering in lets say Maya, you would want a Quadro, and likewise you would not want a Quadro for gaming, they stink for games.

Now, in every other aspect of performance be it:  Office Suites, Photoshop, text editing, pictures, music, video editing, email, web surfing, burning DVDs, so on and so forth, a video card has very little to do with that.

So, you are telling me that an iMac sucks because of the video card, but in reality it doesn't.  It can play every video game out on the market period.  Sure it may not be the absolute best performance but it will still be very good, and very playable.  They are not over priced either, they are just high end.  If you were to build that iMac in a desktop PC, and build it spec for spec, including the 20" high resolution LED LCD monitor, it would be very comparable in price.  iMacs also have built in ABGN wireless, blue tooth, web cam, firewire, firewire 800, gigabit ethernet, digital audio and video out, as well as them being very sleek and take up little space.

Things like SLI are a marketing scheme.  You may get more FPS in a benchmark, and possibly a few more in a game, but that does not make the over all performance better or even noticeable.  RAID 0 offers gamers zero performance increase yet, people all over this forum do it, and it reduces your stability 10 fold when striping drives.

The fact is, that you buy into all this crap that these tech companies cram down gamers throats, and market that way.  They do that so you will buy into it and spend your money.  Some of it is valid, and a lot of it is blown out of proportion, and if a developer can't support these technologies to their fullest then it is a waste of money because you are not benefiting from it.


----------



## `PaWz

I know what a video card is.  I know it only works for 3d rendering and gaming.  And if you are a gamer who wants to max out their settings, a mac is not a good choice.  That is all that I was saying in the first place.

Sorry.  disregard my other post, I misread your comment


----------



## tlarkin

`PaWz said:


> I NEVER said that a mac sucks.  Why are you putting words in my mouth?  I said that the mac loses purely in a gamer's mind.



I never said you said that, LOL

I was just stating some valid points.

Also, a Mac Pro wouldn't be all that great for gaming, the Xeon processors aren't filled with the interactive multimedia platform instruction sets that the Core processors are, and not to mention, I don't think any game takes advantage of quad cores yet.  A Mac Pro would be outstanding for 3D rendering, video editing, and digital audio production.


----------



## speedyink

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/pr...sku_id=0665000FS10099350&catid=&test_cookie=1

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/pr...1A26D050AB259&sku_id=0665000FS10101531&catid=

Quick, which ones a better deal?


----------



## Sir Travis D

the sony because
it has more ram (3x the ram)
bigger screen
more than 2x hard drive space
twice the shared graphics memory (358mb versus 144mb)


----------



## N3crosis

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant says it all.

WARNING: EXPLICIT CONTENT I SHALL NOT BE HELD LIABLE FOR THE ABOVE URL. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.


----------



## Kill Bill

MacBook FTW

1. The GPU on 2 is a shader model 2 on the vaio but the macbook pro has shader model 3. 

2. The cpu on mac is now using penryn 

3. Better APPS

and more

Oh yea. Will Sony hardware last 6 years? Macbooks are supposed to live upto 7 years (- Like everytime a new OS comes out it will support all until year 7 >)


----------



## CPTMuller

Kill Bill said:


> Oh yea. Will Sony hardware last 6 years? Macbooks are supposed to live upto 7 years (- Like everytime a new OS comes out it will support all until year 7 >)


...And what is your basis for saying this?


----------



## Sir Travis D

He has no basis. Just try to ignore fanboys. And no, I am not a fanboy for suggesting dells. For a tight budget, dells offer coupons.


----------



## Kill Bill

CPTMuller said:


> ...And what is your basis for saying this?


A 7 yearold powerbook g4 titanium lying around running leopard


Sir Travis D said:


> He has no basis. Just try to ignore fanboys. And no, I am not a fanboy for suggesting dells. For a tight budget, dells offer coupons.



I'm not a fanboy ok maybe but out of the two sonys overheats alot aswell And btw I HAVE ONE, and whats with cupons they sound so much like I shop out of primark....


----------



## Sir Travis D

Just because you have a mac, you claim your sony is bad. Even if it does overheat, prove it. Post some temps. Saying that a whole company overheats is random and useless.


----------



## Kill Bill

Sir Travis D said:


> Just because you have a mac, you claim your sony is bad. Even if it does overheat, prove it. Post some temps. Saying that a whole company overheats is random and useless.



I dont have a mac yet. I just have a lying around powerbook g4 titanium and a sony vaio vgn fj3s. I'll post em later


----------



## CPTMuller

Kill Bill, just because you have A hypothetical powerbook G4 working doesn't mean that as a whole Mac's have some garunteed lifespan of exactly 7 years, I mean my friend has this tiny little acer that is easily 8-9 years old.... Does that mean acers last 8-9 years garunteed? I've seen macbooks that are already beyond usable does that mean they have a 2 year lifespan?


----------



## `PaWz

Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean shit


----------



## Sir Travis D

Don't swear.


----------



## CPTMuller

Thats basically what I was going for Pawz.


----------



## `PaWz

Sir Travis D said:


> Don't swear.


What's wrong with cursing every once in a while?


----------



## Sir Travis D

There's 12 year olds here!!

"*3.* Rude, offensive or threatening comments as well as posting of adult material will not be tolerated. Use of bad language is not allowed" from rules


----------



## `PaWz

Well, that's too bad.

Good job at being a snitch.


----------



## Sir Travis D

I didn't report you lol.. just a joke 0.0


----------



## `PaWz

Me no like jokes.


----------



## Sir Travis D

Me no like swearing.


----------



## `PaWz

There's a lot of things I don't like, but they happen anyway.


----------



## speedyink

What about...

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/pr...8F233D160E7BB&sku_id=0665000FS10100020&catid=

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/pr...8F233D160E7BB&sku_id=0665000FS10099350&catid=

Point being at this pricepoint, spec to price ratio, PC rapes the Mac


----------



## Sir Travis D

Do you know the image you just put in my mind speedyink? Ugh, Nightmares today


----------



## speedyink

you sick bastard


----------



## Sir Travis D




----------



## speedyink

I think you can do better


----------



## Sir Travis D




----------

