# HD 4670 needs to go...



## durkmusic

I have had the Biostar Radeon HD 4670 for a couple months now and I am absolutely ready to upgrade. My little cousins always come over and want to play a game called sims 3. The only problem is unless I have the graphics settings on their lowest setting, the game does not run smoothly. I want something that will run sims 3 at the highest graphics settings with no problem. So basically just an upgrade from what I have.

DDR3 DirectX 10.1 PCI Express 2.0

Also I don't want suggestions on specific cards I just want to know what to look for. For example a radeon hd with at least 1gb ddr3 etc.

Thanks a lot.


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## Shane

Well whats your budget?...and what other games do you intend to play?


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## durkmusic

That's the only game that will be played on this computer. I also don't want to spend much so just as cheap as possible but still better.

Would it be possible for the new card to be combined with the old one using hybrid crossfirex?


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## 87dtna

The board you have does support Xfire, but I would not recommend it at all.



> Also I don't want suggestions on specific cards I just want to know what to look for. For example a radeon hd with at least 1gb ddr3 etc.



Thats actually pretty unreasonable to want that.  The specs that you see at places like newegg have very little affect on performance.  Ram is THE most overrated thing on video cards.  You could have a 1gb 9400gt, and a 256mb 8800gt destroys it as far as performance.  So there really is no way but to tell you what model cards to look for.

You say you don't want to spend a lot of money, so the only real thing to do is look for older cards but still better ones than your 4670.  I would keep a lookout for a 4850, in the price range of $60-80.  Thats about the most bang for the buck you'll get right there.

Most people would recommend a 5770, but at $150 or so it's probably out of your ''cheap'' price range.


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## danthrax

I understand that you don't want people to recommend specific cards to you, but like 87dtna stated that is somewhat of an unreasonable request.

You can get a GTS 250 for around $80 - $100 with mail in rebates.  Something like a 9800 GT might also fit your needs and they are very reasonably priced.


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## joh06937

87dtna said:


> Most people would recommend a 5770, but at $150 or so it's probably out of your ''cheap'' price range.



you could always go the used route though.


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## linkin

5670, bout $100 and same performance as a 9800gt plus DX11 on the side, if you care for that. lower power consumption too, requires no pci-e 6 pin cable.


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## 87dtna

joh06937 said:


> you could always go the used route though.



Thats why I stated to find a 4850...used.  But you are meaning a used 5770?  Eh, they still go for $120-130 used, not much savings there I'd rather buy new and get a warranty for $20 more.


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## Aastii

If all you are playing is sims 3, you don't need a 4850, it would be huge overkill and a waste of money, as would a 5770. My 8600GT SLI ran Sims 3 at full settings, and they are crap by the standards of today, and even at the time weren't the greatest. You will be fine to get a HD3850 or 8800GT and run it on high settings without a single problem, and you can get them very cheap used.

I would like to point out, that I have a HD3870 for sale, that would play it at highest settings, and would be cheaper than a new card that you won't utilise the power of


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## danthrax

Aastii said:


> If all you are playing is sims 3, you don't need a 4850, it would be huge overkill and a waste of money, as would a 5770. My 8600GT SLI ran Sims 3 at full settings, and they are crap by the standards of today, and even at the time weren't the greatest. You will be fine to get a HD3850 or 8800GT and run it on high settings without a single problem, and you can get them very cheap used.
> 
> I would like to point out, that I have a HD3870 for sale, that would play it at highest settings, and would be cheaper than a new card that you won't utilise the power of



You're quite the salesman!


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## 87dtna

Aastii said:


> If all you are playing is sims 3, you don't need a 4850, it would be huge overkill and a waste of money, as would a 5770. My 8600GT SLI ran Sims 3 at full settings, and they are crap by the standards of today, and even at the time weren't the greatest. You will be fine to get a HD3850 or 8800GT and run it on high settings without a single problem, and you can get them very cheap used.
> 
> I would like to point out, that I have a HD3870 for sale, that would play it at highest settings, and would be cheaper than a new card that you won't utilise the power of



A 3870 is barely better than a 4670, and a 4670 is the same performance as a 3850.  And actually if you crank the AA and AF than thats where the 4670 shines compared to the 3850 and 3870.

http://techreport.com/articles.x/15559/6

8600gt's in SLI is around the same performance as an 8800gts 320mb, which beats a 4670 pretty easily.


He's also playing at 1080p, maybe you weren't.  He needs a decent card.  A 4850 can be had for right around $70 now, it's a cheap for it's performance, and this is a WAY better upgrade than a 3870 should he choose to play other more graphically challenging games in the future.

Also, you want $40 for your 3870, and the likelyhood of him being in hte UK is slim so shipping would be a good bit extra.  Convert that to USD and you are probably looking at $60 shipped....when he can get a 5830 for $70-


http://cgi.ebay.com/SAPPHIRE-100265...tem&pt=PCC_Video_TV_Cards&hash=item19be51713d

EDIT- Actually just found this 4830 BNIB for $64 shipped-

http://cgi.ebay.com/MSI-ATI-Radeon-...tem&pt=PCC_Video_TV_Cards&hash=item255c5aee0b


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## joh06937

selling my 5770 for $125. it is xfx so you will get a lifetime warranty with it


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## Aastii

87dtna said:


> A 3870 is barely better than a 4670, and a 4670 is the same performance as a 3850.  And actually if you crank the AA and AF than thats where the 4670 shines compared to the 3850 and 3870.
> 
> http://techreport.com/articles.x/15559/6
> 
> 8600gt's in SLI is around the same performance as an 8800gts 320mb, which beats a 4670 pretty easily.
> 
> 
> He's also playing at 1080p, maybe you weren't.  He needs a decent card.  A 4850 can be had for right around $70 now, it's a cheap for it's performance, and this is a WAY better upgrade than a 3870 should he choose to play other more graphically challenging games in the future.
> 
> Also, you want $40 for your 3870, and the likelyhood of him being in hte UK is slim so shipping would be a good bit extra.  Convert that to USD and you are probably looking at $60 shipped....when he can get a 5830 for $70-
> 
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/SAPPHIRE-100265...tem&pt=PCC_Video_TV_Cards&hash=item19be51713d
> 
> EDIT- Actually just found this 4830 BNIB for $64 shipped-
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/MSI-ATI-Radeon-...tem&pt=PCC_Video_TV_Cards&hash=item255c5aee0b



I have seen a huge increase in performance with my 3870 over my 8600GT SLI, and the 3870 can still play any game on at least medium. I was going with what he said, which is that he is only going to be occasionally playing the sims, which is not graphically intensive in the slightest. It was on full settings @ 1280x1024 with a single 8600gt and still playing fine, so much so that when my sister was planning on building her system I was going to give her my 8600GT because all she played was The Sims.

If someone came on saying "I am building a computer just for internet, emails and word processing" you wouldn't put a high end card in the budget, because it isn't necessary for the use, same thing here (unless OP posts back saying there is a possibility they will be playing more hardware intensive games in the future)



danthrax said:


> You're quite the salesman!





joh06937 said:


> selling my 5770 for $125. it is xfx so you will get a lifetime warranty with it



I was doing it more to help rather than sell, it will sell one way or another, I wasn't trying to make it into a FS thread


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## 87dtna

Aastii said:


> I have seen a huge increase in performance with my 3870 over my 8600GT SLI, and the 3870 can still play any game on at least medium. I was going with what he said, which is that he is only going to be occasionally playing the sims, which is not graphically intensive in the slightest. It was on full settings @ 1280x1024 with a single 8600gt and still playing fine, so much so that when my sister was planning on building her system I was going to give her my 8600GT because all she played was The Sims.
> 
> If someone came on saying "I am building a computer just for internet, emails and word processing" you wouldn't put a high end card in the budget, because it isn't necessary for the use, same thing here (unless OP posts back saying there is a possibility they will be playing more hardware intensive games in the future)




If he was playing at 1280x1024 the 4670 would be plenty.  But he's playing at 1080p.

You must not play with any AA or AF then, because the 3k series cards can't handle it.

I've owned a 3870 GDDR4 card, they don't handle 1080p well at all.

The whole point is, a 3870 is not much of an upgrade from a 4670.  If he's gonna get a new card, why not spend $10-20 more for overkill rather than a ''slight'' upgrade?


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## durkmusic

My board doesn't support xfire? What do they mean when they say this:

You'll also have access to the most powerful and fastest video processing around when you install a discrete ATI video card that will work in conjunction with the onboard GPU for a unique Hybrid CrossFireX configuration. You'll also appreciate the HyperTransport 3.0 technology, which radically improves overall system efficiency.

That is only works in conjuction with the onboard card or something? Because it doesn't seem like it is doing that... I'm so confused.


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## joh06937

you can use a graphics card to combine with your current onboard graphics or you can buy two similar graphics cards and combine them to achieve more performance. you board will support either.


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## 87dtna

durkmusic said:


> My board doesn't support xfire? What do they mean when they say this:
> 
> You'll also have access to the most powerful and fastest video processing around when you install a discrete ATI video card that will work in conjunction with the onboard GPU for a unique Hybrid CrossFireX configuration. You'll also appreciate the HyperTransport 3.0 technology, which radically improves overall system efficiency.
> 
> That is only works in conjuction with the onboard card or something? Because it doesn't seem like it is doing that... I'm so confused.



Your board supports Xfire, but like I said I don't recommend it to anyone who doesn't know much about hardware/software (no offense).

Hybrid Xfire is different, pretty much useless because no one uses a card thats compatible with the onboard graphics to enable hybrid XfireX.

Did you see the links I gave to the 4830?  That would be a great upgrade for you at ~$70 shipped.  What was your budget for this?  You can always sell the 4670 for about $40 to get some back too.

http://cgi.ebay.com/SAPPHIRE-100265...tem&pt=PCC_Video_TV_Cards&hash=item19be51713d


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## durkmusic

Will the 4830 play sims 3 at full settings flawlessly? What about photoshop and after affects?


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## 87dtna

Absolutely, it's overkill man you will have no trouble at any settings and even if you got a larger monitor you wouldn't have any trouble.


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## durkmusic

Okay thanks a bunch.


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## durkmusic

Okay I planned on getting the 4830 today but then I got an email advertising these "great deals!" 

http://www.newegg.com/Store/Brand.aspx?Brand=1561&name=Sapphire-Tech

Obviously I can't afford and would be pointless to get the cards above 100 but since I'm already paying 70 bucks for the used 4830 would it be worth it to pay the extra 10 or twenty to get one of the cards on that page (which has 2 year warranty)? Are they better? Worse? Worth the extra bills? I don't know what the difference is between a 4830 and a 5770. It looks to me like the higher the number, the more expensive, and therefore the better?

So far I'm leaning towards the 5570.

Thanks.


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## joh06937

the 5770 will have much better performance, dx11, and eyefinity. if you ONLY plan on playing the sims, then the 4830 will do. however, i doubt it will play very many newer games that are already out.


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## durkmusic

Did you mean the 5570? I don't see a 5770


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## joh06937

you asked what the difference was between a 4830 and a 5770 in your post ^^^ did you mean the 5570?


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## durkmusic

What I really meant was what was the difference between all the HD #### is it generally better the bigger the number?

(I can't afford the 5770.. but I can afford the 5570)

http://cgi.ebay.com/XFX-Radeon-HD-5...tem&pt=PCC_Video_TV_Cards&hash=item563e7955e4

^^^That one looks good and only 20 bucks more, shipped, 1 yr warranty


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## G25r8cer

Aastii said:


> If all you are playing is sims 3, you don't need a 4850, it would be huge overkill and a waste of money, as would a 5770. My 8600GT SLI ran Sims 3 at full settings, and they are crap by the standards of today, and even at the time weren't the greatest. You will be fine to get a HD3850 or 8800GT and run it on high settings without a single problem, and you can get them very cheap used.
> 
> I would like to point out, that I have a HD3870 for sale, that would play it at highest settings, and would be cheaper than a new card that you won't utilise the power of



2nd that 

8800gt or 9600gso will do just fine and can be had for $50-70 on ebay


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## G25r8cer

durkmusic said:


> What I really meant was what was the difference between all the HD #### is it generally better the bigger the number?
> 
> (I can't afford the 5770.. but I can afford the 5570)
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/XFX-Radeon-HD-5...tem&pt=PCC_Video_TV_Cards&hash=item563e7955e4
> 
> ^^^That one looks good and only 20 bucks more, shipped, 1 yr warranty



Thats a Refurb so you might as well get a used and save some money

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sapphire-Techno...tem&pt=PCC_Video_TV_Cards&hash=item3f020a0dc3


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## 87dtna

durkmusic said:


> Okay I planned on getting the 4830 today but then I got an email advertising these "great deals!"
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Store/Brand.aspx?Brand=1561&name=Sapphire-Tech
> 
> Obviously I can't afford and would be pointless to get the cards above 100 but since I'm already paying 70 bucks for the used 4830 would it be worth it to pay the extra 10 or twenty to get one of the cards on that page (which has 2 year warranty)? Are they better? Worse? Worth the extra bills? I don't know what the difference is between a 4830 and a 5770. It looks to me like the higher the number, the more expensive, and therefore the better?
> 
> So far I'm leaning towards the 5570.
> 
> Thanks.



The 4830 is WAY stronger than a 5570.  A 5570 is pretty much the equivalent of the 4670 that you have now but with DX11 which is no big deal.

Get the 4830.


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## durkmusic

Okay well I got the 4830... hope its good


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## 87dtna

Don't worry it's a lot stronger than a 4670 you should have no issues now.


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## durkmusic

Thanks a million. I'll probably let you know how it goes


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## durkmusic

Okay so I got the 4830 and it's not running the sims 3 at full settings well at all. Better than what I had but not good enough to run sims 3 at full settings. I even overclocked it and couldn't get it to run well on full settings. You guys said it would have no problem running sims, what am I doing wrong?


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## joh06937

do you know what kind of percentage of usage you are getting? i am not familiar with sims but do you have anti aliasing enabled anywhere (ccc or in game)?


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## 87dtna

What drivers are you running?

Download and install this driver right here-

http://downloads.guru3d.com/ATI-Catalyst-10.4-WHQL-Windows-7-|-Vista-64-bit-download-2530.html


It runs the 4k series the best.  If you are running the latest 10.7 drivers, I've heard of a lot of people having issues with 4K series cards as the 10.7 is geared more toward the 5k series.


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## durkmusic

Okay I installed the driver you told me to install (uninstalled the "new" one first) and yes the aa is set to 8x  filter edge-detect samples 24x. I monitored the gpu usage... upon loading the game it reaches near 100% usage. During gameplay it fluctuates between about 0% usage to somewhere around 60-70 which is just a peak and doesn't stay there for more than a second. The game is laggy or jumpy when I try to move the camera around. So I guess the gpu isn't being used to its fullest? How do I utilize the whole gpu?

Thanks.

Other notes:
Core clock, between 200 and 580MHz
Mem clock between 250 and 880MHz
Core Temp stays around 35C
Core temp/display IO stays around 35C
Core temp/shader core stays around 35C as well
This is all being NOT overclocked.


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## 87dtna

Does it run 580 while gaming though?  It should only go down to 200 when idling, thats a power saving feature.  Under any load it should jump back up to 580.

New drivers made no difference?




> edge-detect samples 24x



I don't know what that even is, is it the same as anisotropic filtering (AF)?  Try taking AA down to 4x, and this edge-detect samples down to like 8x or something and just see if that improves the lag.  
I don't know why the GPU usage so low.  With a 965 at 3.9ghz, you definitely shouldn't have any CPU bottleneck at all.


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## durkmusic

New drivers didn't fix it. Did what you said with the aa and all that. Nothing worked. The frequencies are high during play and low during idle like you said so that's good but as far as gameplay goes it's not doing so hot. I even lowered the settings a little bit and it's still super laggy. Takes forever to load all the objects and stuff. The core temps were reaching near 46C this time and the usage near 75% at it's peak. I mean it is just barely better than the one I had. I don't think it's anything to do with the cpu like you said... so idk... i'm lost.


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## 87dtna

What hard drive do you have?


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## durkmusic

it's a wd 320gb caviar blue


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## Mez

What resolution are you running it at?


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## durkmusic

1920 x 1080 60hz


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## Okedokey

Do you have a multimeter?  That PSu only has 24A on the 12V rail and could be responsible for low framerates.  Test the 12V rail with a multimeter under load and post voltages.

Your CPU alone can draw nearly 12A and with such low efficiency, no active PFC etc that PSU is probably underpowered.


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## Mez

You could also try taking AA and AF off see if the game is playable then.


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## 87dtna

durkmusic said:


> 1920 x 1080 60hz



uhh, I said hard drive not monitor LOL.



bigfellla said:


> Do you have a multimeter?  That PSu only has 24A on the 12V rail and could be responsible for low framerates.  Test the 12V rail with a multimeter under load and post voltages.
> 
> Your CPU alone can draw nearly 12A and with such low efficiency, no active PFC etc that PSU is probably underpowered.



He was running a 4670 before that with the same issue, now he's running a card with an external 6 pin connector.  He also has a decent PSU, I doubt it's the problem.

But to rule that out, perhaps take the CPU back to stock clocks and see what happens.


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## durkmusic

87dtna said:


> uhh, I said hard drive not monitor LOL.



HAHA! The only resolution I know is video resolution. What do you mean what resolution am I running my hard drive at?

Okay I'll take cpu to stock and see what happens. I will also take aa and af off.


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## Aastii

87dtna said:


> uhh, I said hard drive not monitor LOL.





87dtna said:


> What hard drive do you have?





durkmusic said:


> it's a wd 320gb caviar blue





Alien! Where? said:


> What resolution are you running it at?





durkmusic said:


> 1920 x 1080 60hz







durkmusic said:


> HAHA! The only resolution I know is video resolution. What do you mean what resolution am I running my hard drive at?
> 
> Okay I'll take cpu to stock and see what happens. I will also take aa and af off.



You were right first time, and post the results from dropping your OC and the settings


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## 87dtna

Hahaha, I didn't even see where he posted the HDD he had, Alien snuck in that question about the monitor and I thought Durk was responding to my HDD question LOL.

Uhh, I would try one at a time.  Don't drop the settings AND the overclock, then it's hard to determine which made the difference.  Drop the OC first, and leave current settings.  If that doesn't work, drop the settings.


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## Mez

I did some research on that power supply, it is not of good quality, and actually looks like a piece of crap. Maybe Bigfella is right, and your system is not being sufficiently supplied with power.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139008&Tpk=Corsair 400w

I say try going with this. It's $49.99 but after rebates it's a mere $30. Even if it doesn't help, your system will have that sense of security, and you won't have to worry about it kicking the bucket. That corsair is of very high quality, and should be more than sufficient for your system. I guarantee you that that power supply is 10x better than yours... I mean it's a 400w with 30a on the 12v, while yours is a 650w with 24a?


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## 87dtna

Hmmm, I would go with more than a 400w.  His CPU alone is drawing 200.


I would go with this at the minimum-

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371035

Or this one is good-

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341022


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## durkmusic

I have been wanting to replace the psu for a long time I just never know what to replace it with. There's so many choices and I never know if I will need the extra power.

anyways... niether of those things worked even both at the same time. what's weird is the trees never load. they are always just a bunch of 2d squares... no matter what i do with the settings. what do you guys think?


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## bomberboysk

87dtna said:


> Hmmm, I would go with more than a 400w.  His CPU alone is drawing 200.
> 
> 
> I would go with this at the minimum-
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371035
> 
> Or this one is good-
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341022



I wouldn't buy the OCZ, the earthwatts is a delta build and of the two thats what i would go with.

400W though is plenty sufficient for that system, although not alot of headroom for the way of upgrades.

I'd go with one of these though:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151080


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## durkmusic

so you think my gpu problem has to do with my psu? Your sure I need a different psu?


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## bomberboysk

durkmusic said:


> so you think my gpu problem has to do with my psu? Your sure I need a different psu?



Can't guarantee a PSU related issue, but that Okia unit is a piece of junk that is a failure waiting to happen.


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## durkmusic

so what if i replace the psu and it's not fixed?


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## (=^_^=)

linkin said:


> 5670, bout $100 and same performance as a 9800gt plus DX11 on the side, if you care for that. lower power consumption too, requires no pci-e 6 pin cable.



Yep


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## 87dtna

bomberboysk said:


> I wouldn't buy the OCZ, the earthwatts is a delta build and of the two thats what i would go with.
> 
> 400W though is plenty sufficient for that system, although not alot of headroom for the way of upgrades.
> 
> I'd go with one of these though:
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151080



Well his CPU is probably drawing 180-200w, and the 4830 another 95w or more if he overclocks that too.  I'd say that 12v rail is VERY maxxed out with the corsair 400w.  But I like the seasonic choice, good find I missed that one.





durkmusic said:


> I have been wanting to replace the psu for a long time I just never know what to replace it with. There's so many choices and I never know if I will need the extra power.
> 
> anyways... niether of those things worked even both at the same time. what's weird is the trees never load. they are always just a bunch of 2d squares... no matter what i do with the settings. what do you guys think?





durkmusic said:


> so you think my gpu problem has to do with my psu? Your sure I need a different psu?



If the GPU isn't supplying enough power, it could screw things up.  But taking away the overclock and no help has me concerned that it's still not the problem.



durkmusic said:


> so what if i replace the psu and it's not fixed?



You're issues really sound driver related.  ATI cards and their settings are not my forte' (besides overclocking), I don't really like them that much.  I've owned several, but still don't like them.

Once you get the power supply, you can try overclocking the 4830 and see if that helps too.  Although the GPU should be plenty strong to play the game already even at 1080p, so I don't really understand whats going on.  I wish I lived closer to you, I'd come over check it out myself.



(=^_^=) said:


> Yep



The 4830 he got for a good bit cheaper is just as strong as a 9800gt/5670.


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## Okedokey

durkmusic said:


> so what if i replace the psu and it's not fixed?



As i said earlier, do you have a multimeter?  You can test the 12V rails from a molex connector and test how low the 12V rail goes during a period of gaming.  This will tell you if the 12V rail goes out of ATX spec and therefore support my view that your low powered POS PSU could be causing this issue.  It is a common issue for under-powered systems.  Alternatively you could borrow a PSU of good quality.  I would recommend a minimum of 26A on the 12V rail, 80%+ efficiency, active PFC, EPS cert and 500W min if you plan on doing any future upgrades.


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## durkmusic

I do have a multimeter but I have no idea what you mean by 12V rails from a molex connector lol is there any kind of graphic that would show me where to connect the leads to test this?


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## 87dtna

Molex connectors are the 4 pin peripheral connectors that old IDE drives take for power.  Your power supply should have most likely about 6-8 of them on 2 lines.

The red and black wires are power/ground, thats what you want to test.  But the problem is, your power supply has 2 rails.  Testing at the molex connector will only be testing one of the rails.


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## durkmusic

Not sure if this helps but all connectors read 5.22V when not gaming and anywhere between 5.25V and 5.27V while gaming.


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## Okedokey

No, you have tested the 5V rail.  Look here for instructions:  http://www.hardwareheaven.com/guides/testingPSU/.  Make sure you test the 12V rail after a period say 15 minutes of gaming to ensure components are up to temp, and that you apply your normal overclocking etc.  Record the minimum and maximum voltages.


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## 87dtna

My fault, I told him to test the red wire.  I just mixed them up, been awhile since I've tested a PSU.


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## durkmusic

Okay I tested the idle voltage so far and its at about 12.37v. I will test the gaming after 15 minutes voltage now.

I first tested my 4670 for a minute and it drops it down to about 12.33v. Now for the 4830.

4830 drops it down to about 12.23v so roughly 0.1v so far... still testing. (also note that the card makes high pitched sounds when playing intro video)

After testing for about 15 minutes I noticed that it changed between 12.23v and 12.27v. It would fluctuate. Now it's at about 12.32v.

What does all this mean?


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## 87dtna

It means your PSU most likely isn't the issue.  It would have to be below 12v completely to be making your PC screw up, it's not even close.


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## durkmusic

omg im so pissed now idk what to do. maybe sims 3 was a lot heavier of a game than you guys thought. or maybe this card isnt as good as you guys thought... idk... should i do some benchmark stuff and see what kind of ratings im getting with this card?


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## 87dtna

OK, try some 3dmark06 runs.

http://www.techpowerup.com/downloads/1755/Futuremark_3DMark06_v1.2.0_1901.html


The 4830 is a really good card, way better than a 4670 man.  

Have you tried overclocking it yet though?  I use MSI afterburner tool.


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## durkmusic

Okay I ran 3dmark. You might be able to see the results here:

http://service.futuremark.com/home.action;jsessionid=A8AE99FE0283F6490716AE120D4F35DD

If not, It scored a 12445
sm 2 4671
sm 3 5172
cpu 5326

max overclocked results: http://service.futuremark.com/home.action

13602
5198
5697
5404


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## 87dtna

Links don't work for me.

So is the first one with stock CPU clocks?  And the second one, overclocked to what speed?  CPU overclock?  Or the card overclocked?  Or both?


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## durkmusic

cpu is overclocked at about 3.8 both times. first time the card is at stock. second time the card is overclocked.


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## 87dtna

Hmm, how much overclock?  Seems a little low on graphics performance for that card.  I would expect more like 15k overclocked with a Phenom II quad at 3.8ghz.

Have you tried playing the game overclocked?

Also, with no AA or AF, set your resolution in the game to 1600x900.  Just curious if that makes a difference.  What FPS are you getting anyway?


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## Okedokey

Do this regardless:


Uninstall the ATi drivers using the standard approach. 
Download the latest ATi drivers: http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/Pages/index.aspx
Download and install DriverSweeper: http://downloads.guru3d.com/Guru3D---Driver-Sweeper-(Setup)-download-1655.html
Run it for ATi drivers
Restart
Install the latest drivers.
Restart

Please then make sure you have 


DirectX updated: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...38-db71-4c1b-bc6a-9b6652cd92a3&displaylang=en
Windows Updates 
Game updates: http://easims.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/...&p_sid=VmE4Oo7k&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=

According to this http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2333572,00.asp  that 3DMark06 score is about right (and they use a much more powerful CPU).  I think that GPU may be underpowered for that resolution, as its closest comparison is probably an 8800GT or similar, which I know from experience cant handle much past 1400 x 900.  It should really play Sim3 though, please use FRAPS to record your FPS during play: http://www.fraps.com/download.php

Also, keep the multimeter connected to the 12V rail while gaming and just monitor it over a longer timeframe.

Finally, you may have a heterosexual HD4830 which is refusing to play such a gay game


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## 87dtna

They used a QX9650, at stock clocks of 3ghz.  A Phenom II quad at 3.8ghz is easily superior to a core 2 quad at 3ghz.

Also, an 8800gt/4830 can play 1920x1080 just fine.  I play COD WAW, which I'm sure is more graphically challenging than sims 3, and I've owned several 8800gt's, it plays that game just fine never below 40 FPS and about 70 FPS average.

I do however agree with your last statement


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## Okedokey

I would like to see evidence of that, but the point is that the CPU isn't going to bottleneck that GPU, thus the 3DMark06 scores are comparable.  That GPU is not great.

plus i too have owned a 8800GT (similar performance) and it struggles at that resolution.  I think the simple answer here is that the GPU is underpowered and was a bad suggestion.

however to the OP, please try my suggestions as this may help.


----------



## linkin

Also, 3DMark06 is very clockspeed dependant, even though it's multithreaded. My dually E6300 at 4ghz scores higher overall than my athlon quaddy at 3.5ghz, even with RAM that's twice as fast.

Infact in 06 GPU matters very little  more like a CPU/clockspeed benchmark.


----------



## Okedokey

The simple fact is that this guy was recommended a card that hasn't provided the benefit that was promised.  Synthetic benchmarks aside, arguments and about what CPU is better is irrelevant.  

To the OP, unfortunately, you may have been given crap advice.  Try the updates as I suggested in post #71 and get back to us.  Otherwise if you need improved FPS you will need to upgrade to a better GPU and PSU or play at a lower resolution or graphical settings.


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## 87dtna

bigfellla said:


> I would like to see evidence of that, but the point is that the CPU isn't going to bottleneck that GPU, thus the 3DMark06 scores are comparable.  That GPU is not great.
> 
> plus i too have owned a 8800GT (similar performance) and it struggles at that resolution.  I think the simple answer here is that the GPU is underpowered and was a bad suggestion.
> 
> however to the OP, please try my suggestions as this may help.



http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/102?vs=49


Thats at stock 3.4ghz clocks, and the 965 wins most of the benches.  Add another 400 mhz and it will win in 90% of those benches easily.

I agree, cpu not a bottleneck.  But he's also stated that it's only using 75% of the GPU.  If it was underpowered, it'd be pegged at 100% the entire time.  There has got to be something else wrong.

I've owned over 2 dozen video cards in the last 6 months alone, all playing on 1080p....I know what cards are capable of what performance.

He needs to try 1600x900 resolution in the game and see if that makes a difference.  That will show if the GPU is simply underpowered or not.  But like I said, he's only getting 75% GPU usage which leads me into thinking something else is wrong.

A 4830 overclocked is similar to 4850 performance, which is the same performance as a 9800GTX.....which plays 1080p no problem.  Something else is wrong.



linkin said:


> Also, 3DMark06 is very clockspeed dependant, even though it's multithreaded. My dually E6300 at 4ghz scores higher overall than my athlon quaddy at 3.5ghz, even with RAM that's twice as fast.
> 
> Infact in 06 GPU matters very little  more like a CPU/clockspeed benchmark.



I've taken the clockspeed into account.  I've benched a few cards on 06' with a Phenom II quad at 3.9ghz, so I know what scores can be compared.








I do have a question to anyone else who's played this sims 3, is this game a Nvidia swayed game?  If the game likes NVidia cards over ATI, that will make a huge difference and cause the ATI card to not use 100% of the GPU core.


----------



## StrangleHold

durkmusic said:


> Okay so I got the 4830 and it's not running the sims 3 at full settings well at all. Better than what I had but not good enough to run sims 3 at full settings. I even overclocked it and couldn't get it to run well on full settings. You guys said it would have no problem running sims, what am I doing wrong?


 
Dont know what it takes to play sims at full settings, never played the game. But with that said, going from a 4670 to a 4830 isnt what I would call a (big) upgrade or to say its (alot) stronger.

 Its a better card and if you didnt have either one, sure the 4830 is the better choice, but if you already had the 4760 is was sorta of a waste of money to me. You went from a mediocre card to a little better one.

Should have waited and saved up some more and atleast got something like a 5770.


----------



## 87dtna

The jump from a 4670 to a 4830 is quite large.  It's a 40-50% stronger card, thats a lot better.

A 4830 is just a cut from a 4850, which is in a different league than a 4670 completely.  The 4850 is the same as a 9800GTX, which plays just about any game at 1080p just fine.  An overclocked 4830 is equal to a 4850.


http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-4830-review-his-technology/9

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/811/5/

http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-4830-review-his-technology/13

http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-4830-review-his-technology/8

http://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/gpu_displays/his_radeon_4670_4830_4850_mid_range_round-up/7

http://www.neoseeker.com/resourcelink.html?rid=174481


I can get more links showing 40-50% frame rate increases if you want 

Strangehold you may know more about power supplies than me, but forget it when it comes to video cards.


----------



## Okedokey

*I feel sorry for the OP!*



87dtna said:


> The jump from a 4670 to a 4830 is quite large.  It's a 40-50% stronger card, thats a lot better.
> 
> I can get more links showing 40-50% frame rate increases if you want
> 
> Strangehold you may know more about power supplies than me, but forget it when it comes to video cards.


*
ok, fine, im not saying this is conclusively a bad decision, a bit arrogant, but you have a million times more experience then everyone right, at least a dozen GPUs recently, well.....*



durkmusic said:


> *Will the 4830 play sims 3 at full settings flawlessly?* What about photoshop and after affects?





87dtna said:


> *Absolutely, it's overkill man you will have no trouble at any settings and even if you got a larger monitor you wouldn't have any trouble*.





durkmusic said:


> Okay so I* got the 4830 and it's not running the sims 3 at full settings well at all*. Better than what I had but not good enough to run sims 3 at full settings. I even overclocked it and couldn't get it to run well on full settings. You guys said it would have no problem running sims, what am I doing wrong?



*wanna tell us why he has crappy FPS then?  Strangle has an excellent reputation and I agree with him.  You talked down several suggestions different to yours 87dtna, but now we have a situation where the OP is not getting what you said he would.  That is a much better gaming experience.  *

*Well, we have excluded the PSU and the CPU isnt the problem according to 87dtna , so I may be wrong but it is likely that the HD4830 is underpowered for that game at that resolution.*

*I agree with Strangle, it wasn't a good decision.  Now, it is unlikely that he will spend money on a another GPU, so my suggestion is to ensure the software is up to date - the only real option left.*



bigfellla said:


> Do this regardless:
> 
> 
> Uninstall the ATi drivers using the standard approach.
> Download the latest ATi drivers: http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/Pages/index.aspx
> Download and install DriverSweeper: http://downloads.guru3d.com/Guru3D---Driver-Sweeper-(Setup)-download-1655.html
> Run it for ATi drivers
> Restart
> Install the latest drivers.
> Restart
> 
> Please then make sure you have
> 
> 
> DirectX updated: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...38-db71-4c1b-bc6a-9b6652cd92a3&displaylang=en
> Windows Updates
> Game updates: http://easims.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/...&p_sid=VmE4Oo7k&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=
> 
> According to this http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2333572,00.asp  that 3DMark06 score is about right (and they use a much more powerful CPU).  I think that GPU may be underpowered for that resolution, as its closest comparison is probably an 8800GT or similar, which I know from experience cant handle much past 1400 x 900.  It should really play Sim3 though, please use FRAPS to record your FPS during play: http://www.fraps.com/download.php
> 
> Also, keep the multimeter connected to the 12V rail while gaming and just monitor it over a longer timeframe.
> 
> Finally, you may have a heterosexual HD4830 which is refusing to play such a gay game


----------



## StrangleHold

87dtna said:


> The jump from a 4670 to a 4830 is quite large. It's a 40-50% stronger card, thats a lot better.
> 
> A 4830 is just a cut from a 4850, which is in a different league than a 4670 completely. The 4850 is the same as a 9800GTX, which plays just about any game at 1080p just fine. An overclocked 4830 is equal to a 4850.
> 
> 
> http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-4830-review-his-technology/9
> 
> http://www.legitreviews.com/article/811/5/
> 
> http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-4830-review-his-technology/13
> 
> http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-4830-review-his-technology/8
> 
> http://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/gpu_displays/his_radeon_4670_4830_4850_mid_range_round-up/7
> 
> http://www.neoseeker.com/resourcelink.html?rid=174481
> 
> 
> I can get more links showing 40-50% frame rate increases if you want .


 
Tell me something I dont already know. Your missing the whole point. You start with a lowend midrange card and go to a semi upper midrange, thats not what I would spend money on, calling it a upgrade. Doubling crap frame rates, big deal. 

If you were building computers for customers that wanted a upgrade. It better be a big noticeable difference or you have people coming back pitching a fit (like here). You be honest with people, like this dude, yes its a upgrade. But worth the time and money, No! Better to wait till you have money for a better card to be a large noticeable difference



87dtna said:


> Strangehold you may know more about power supplies than me, but forget it when it comes to video cards.


 
Dont really care. You do know I'm involved in a computer shop and have a part time business of my own. Been doing this for 16 years. Probable bought more video cards in the last year then you have owned computers in your life.


----------



## Okedokey

don't let it get to you strangle, we know you rock   btw am i picking a fight here?


----------



## 87dtna

StrangleHold said:


> Tell me something I dont already know. Your missing the whole point. You start with a lowend midrange card and go to a semi upper midrange, thats not what I would spend money on, calling it a upgrade. Doubling crap frame rates, big deal.
> 
> If you were building computers for customers that wanted a upgrade. It better be a big noticeable difference or you have people coming back pitching a fit (like here). You be honest with people, like this dude, yes its a upgrade. But worth the time and money, No! Better to wait till you have money for a better card to be a large noticeable difference
> 
> 
> Dont really care. You do know I'm involved in a computer shop and have a part time business of my own. Been doing this for 16 years. Probable bought more video cards in the last year then you have owned computers in your life.



No, you are missing the point.  The 4830 should be plenty of card to game on 1080p.

I don't care if you've sold 50 million cards...what does selling a card new in box do for your experience in this area?  jack.  I've benched the 43 cards I've owned in the last 6 months.


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## StrangleHold

No, its not a fight yet. Not till the crude-nasty and ugly comes out.


----------



## 87dtna




----------



## StrangleHold

87dtna said:


> No, you are missing the point. The 4830 should be plenty of card to game on 1080p.
> 
> I don't care if you've sold 50 million cards...what does selling a card new in box do for your experience in this area? jack. I've benched the 43 cards I've owned in the last 6 months.


 
Somehow its went from 24 to 43 cards. Yeah! Give me a paragraph on that one too.


What ever you want to think about measuring your experence to mine, which you dont seem to get. I Dont Care. Meaningless in my world. Not trying to change your mind or do I care. Was giving the OP advice that the upgrade was a waste of money. If you cant handle that, get over it!


----------



## 87dtna

24 different cards, I've owned more than 1 of each to SLI/Xfire etc.

Your world?  Well your world isn't the real world then because in the real world a 4830 can effortlessly play 95% of games on 1080p.  

Sims 3 is less graphically challenging than COD WAW, based on looking at the minimum requirements of the game, which is what I have tested all these cards on.


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## 87dtna

Just for you-


----------



## StrangleHold

Its like hitting a donkey with a 2X4.


----------



## 87dtna

Now see, the really sad part is he's going to believe you are right simply because his PC still isn't playing the game correctly....when in fact the real truth is there has to be an underlying cause because the GPU isn't even being stressed past 75% usage.  If the GPU was underpowered, it'd be pegged at 100% the entire time.  If you know anything about benching hardware, you'll know thats true.  So whats the cause?  I don't know, but what I do know is a 4830 is capable of playing that game with acceptable frame rates....meaning 50+ with zero lag.


----------



## 87dtna

bigfellla said:


> *wanna tell us why he has crappy FPS then?  Strangle has an excellent reputation and I agree with him.  You talked down several suggestions different to yours 87dtna, but now we have a situation where the OP is not getting what you said he would.  That is a much better gaming experience.  *



I'll say this yet again, the GPU is only getting 75% usage, if it was underpowered it'd be pegged at 100%.  Something else is wrong, which is what we need to focus on rather than bash 87dtna because he must be wrong thread.

What other suggestions?  A 5770?  Thats the only one I see, which is a $150 card, plus that he'd need to upgrade his PSU so you're talking $200+ for an unnessesary upgrade when the 4830 for $70 should be PLENTY to run this game at 1080p.


----------



## Okedokey

Mate back off, let him do the software updates etc that I suggested and stop being so full of yourself.  This thread will likely be closed because of all this crap, but the OP, the actual important one got bum advice from you, and saying it must be something else, without actually saying what that is, in nonsense.

The card you recommended didn't give the results.  Have you actually seen Sim3, its quite graphically challenging as it is 3d etc.  In fact, although the 4830 is technically above minimum specs for that game, the only two 4 series cards that the official Sim3 website claims are supported are the 4850 and 4870. http://www.thesims3.com/game/systemreq

The point is your suggestion has proven to be crap, and all the jumping up and down, without any further proof of it being something else seems unlikely to help matters.

I am again pushing for the software updates, as many have recoreded a massive FPS drop with 1.3 patch fixed with 1.4.   Just leave it for a bit 87dtna and let the OP try someone else's advice without it being burried in your defences.


----------



## 87dtna

bigfellla said:


> In fact, although the 4830 is technically above minimum specs for that game, the only two 4 series cards that the official Sim3 website claims are supported are the 4850 and 4870.




The 4830 overclocked is the same thing as a 4850.  So why won't it work again?  Oh yeah thats right, it's not the card thats the problem.  The ''minimum spec'' is a 7300gt, but obviously not for 1080p.



> The point is your suggestion has proven to be crap



What proof?  I already proved that it's not the GPU.  If the GPU was too weak, the usage would be pegged at 100%.  Is this too hard of a concept to grasp?  OMFG


----------



## JareeB

how does the hd4670 not play sims 3, if it can held gta 4 with a dual core and 1.5gb ram on medium then something must be wrong


----------



## Okedokey

Different game engines will perform differently.  It also matters what resolutions your are comparing.  To the OP, please try my suggestions re updates, and have a read of this which says basically you will need a powerful GPU to play at 1900 x 1080, however that was a year ago.  http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Games/Guides/sims3performance/

It may not be the card, but I would like to see the OP update all the software as the latest patches appear to help matters.


----------



## 87dtna

Well, I'm glad you posted that link.  They called a 9800gt ''overkill'' for this game, and a 4830 is identical in performance to a 9800gt.

Also, With a 9600gso they were getting 43 fps with HIGH quality at 1680x1050 resolution.  A 4830 whips a 9600gso easily, the 9600gso is probably around the same performance with 4670 was.  There should be ZERO issues running this game on a 4830 with 1080p.

A quote from the article-


> If you have a dual-core system, and a video card as good as at least a 9600 GT or HD 3850 (or better), then you you shouldn't have much trouble running the game in the highest settings across the board.


----------



## fastdude




----------



## durkmusic

I wasn't able to overclock by much without it being unstable.. only about 50mhz for mem and core clocks. If I go anymore I get those random squares during gameplay. I've spent a lot of hours trying to overclock it and haven't gotten much out of it. I still can't play the sims 3 even at medium settings? I've tried all versions of drivers, ati catalyst, etc. I've reinstalled windows, uninstalled and reinstalled everything to do with graphics...

did some fps monitoring with afterburner... looks like I'm getting fps in the hundreds (200-300+ which doesn't seem possible lol) and sometimes it drops down to anywhere from 12-20-30. I am so confused because this is on the lowest settings and it's still horrible. I'm putting my other card in and seeing what happens.

UPDATE: Okay, turns out my 4670 is just as good if not better than my 5830 when running sims 3... somethings not right here... could it have something to do with directx?

my 4670 scored a 9463 while my 4830 scored a 13388 so obviously the 4830 is better but why can't it run sims 3?

UPDATE: Just saw your post bigfellla. I am doing all of the stuff you said right now and I will post with an update soon.

Okay did all the stuff you said. during gameplay, faps would show fps into the hundreds. when I choose to go somewhere or do something the fps drops down to eventually 1. then once the action is complete and all is still the fps jumps back up again. this is on low settings...

wtf is all i can say


----------



## Okedokey

Did you update the game etc?


----------



## durkmusic

Game is fully updated. I'm gonna get gta iv just to do some more tests.


----------

