# Surge Protector Vs UPS



## Renzore101 (May 30, 2015)

Hello CF,

I have a quick general question regarding surge protectors and UPS's. Today my power went out during a thunderstorm, and my PC lost power during this time twice.  I am not an electrician obviously, so I am just trying to gain some level of understanding of how this affects my PC. When the power goes out, then comes back on, a surge occurs correct? I am sure this  surge is nothing like a lightning strike, but it can probably cause damage to electronics all the same. Does a UPS better protect against electrical surges than a regular surge protector?


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## johnb35 (May 30, 2015)

When power goes out, the abrupt power cutoff can damage hard drives, memory and other hardware.  If you had a UPS/battery backup then you can safely shut down your system without the abrupt power cutoff.  If your area has lots of power outages, then I highly recommend getting a battery backup. Those cheap surge protectors don't protect against a lot.


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## beers (May 30, 2015)

It depends, a surge protector tries to clamp the voltage to an acceptable range (and trips in excess).  Sometimes it will just be lack of power down the line so the voltage would sag to 0 and you'd have no power.

A UPS would give you battery standby so your PC stays on when the power is out.  As far as protection from lightning, there are a few different kinds of UPS as you can read about here:
http://www.apcdistributors.com/white-papers/Power/WP-1 The Different Types of UPS Systems.pdf


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## Renzore101 (Jun 1, 2015)

So I went ahead and bought a UPS from microcenter today! It seems to be working great, I can't believe how huge and heavy the backup battery is. I just had a quick question in regards to one of the settings in the UPS software that I installed. There is a sensitivity setting that was set to Medium by default, and I changed it to High. It says that High will provide maximum protection against electrical noise, so I am assuming this would be the best setting to choose. What are your opinions on this?


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## beers (Jun 1, 2015)

Cool, which one did you end up getting? 

Sensitivity is usually a 'how quickly will it go to battery' setting when the line goes out of spec.  Too high in a brownout type of area may decrease the life of the batteries if they're being excessively cycled from the unit swapping too preemptively.


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## Renzore101 (Jun 2, 2015)

beers said:


> Cool, which one did you end up getting?
> 
> Sensitivity is usually a 'how quickly will it go to battery' setting when the line goes out of spec.  Too high in a brownout type of area may decrease the life of the batteries if they're being excessively cycled from the unit swapping too preemptively.



http://www.microcenter.com/product/278611/750VA_Green_Battery_Back-UPS__with_10_Outlets,_USB_Connectivity,_Shutdown_Software_and_Master-Control_Feature


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## WhoX (Jun 2, 2015)

Here in Germany thunderstorms and lightning strikes are common. In the past I lost a DSL modem/router and splitter from a lightning strike. My PC and accessories were on a surge protector, but the DSL equipment wasn't. For me surge protectors have worked without any problems. 

Because I am self employed and work at home (and can't afford equipment loss), I'm considering getting a UPS as an extra layer of security. 

Nothing fancy...APC Back-UPS ES 700VA


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## Renzore101 (Jun 2, 2015)

WhoX said:


> Here in Germany thunderstorms and lightning strikes are common. In the past I lost a DSL modem/router and splitter from a lightning strike. My PC and accessories were on a surge protector, but the DSL equipment wasn't. For me surge protectors have worked without any problems.
> 
> Because I am self employed and work at home (and can't afford equipment loss), I'm considering getting a UPS as an extra layer of security.
> 
> Nothing fancy...APC Back-UPS ES 700VA



I say go for it, the UPS will serve you well. Currently I have my PC, two monitors, Xbox One, and router all running into the UPS for assured protection. In the event of a lightning strike I will potentially only lose my cable box and TV now!  Eventually another UPS is in order for them but not until I can talk the girlfriend into spending more money on my microcenter junk.


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## westom (Jun 3, 2015)

WhoX said:


> I'm considering getting a UPS as an extra layer of security.


Anyone can read specification numbers.  Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules.   How many joules does a UPS claim to absorb?  Hundreds?  It is near zero protection.   Since most ignore numbers, then near zero protection is promoted subjectively as 100% protection.

Even power strips typically claim better protection than a UPS.

A hundred joule surge is so tiny that electronics will typically convert it to rock solid and clean DC voltage to power its semiconductors.  Protection already inside appliances is more robust.

UPS output demonstrates why.  This 120 volt UPS in battery backup mode outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts. Also called a pure sine wave UPS.  They did not lie.  Square waves and spikes are nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves (from high school math).

All electronics must be so robust that even a 'dirtier' UPS causes no damage.  Again rumored 'near zero' surges are already made irrelevant by robust protection inside all electronics.

Your concern is a rare and destructive transient that might occur once every seven years.  No adjacent protector claims to protect from this completely different electrical current.   Effective protection has always been done at the service entrance.  One 'whole house' protector must be properly earthed so that even that UPS is protected.  This superior solution, always found in facilities that cannot have damage, may cost about 1 Euro per protected appliance.  Comes from other manufacturers with integrity including Siemens, ABB, Keison, General Electric, Leviton, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Eaton and others.  APC is not listed for electrical reasons provided above.

Security as in a destructive surge?  That is a properly earthed solution. Security to protect unsaved data from a blackout?  That is the function of a UPS.  Anything a UPS might do to protect hardware is already done better inside all electronics.  So that electronics is also protected from 'dirty' UPS power in battery backup mode.  Did anyone post any specification numbers that said otherwise?  Of course not.  Surge protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.


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## Renzore101 (Jun 3, 2015)

westom said:


> Anyone can read specification numbers.  Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules.   How many joules does a UPS claim to absorb?  Hundreds?  It is near zero protection.   Since most ignore numbers, then near zero protection is promoted subjectively as 100% protection.
> 
> Even power strips typically claim better protection than a UPS.
> 
> ...



http://stormhighway.com/surge_protectors_ups_lightning_protection_myth.php

I believe what you are trying to say is that a properly grounded electrical infrastructure is most important. In the event of a thunderstorm it is best to unplug electronic devices. I bought a UPS to protect my PC from shutting down suddenly in the event of complete power loss, not so much lightning strikes.


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## westom (Jun 3, 2015)

Renzore101 said:


> I bought a UPS to protect my PC from shutting down suddenly in the event of complete power loss, not so much lightning strikes.


Lightning is only one example.  Unplugging is a least reliable solution.  If anything needs protection, then everything needs protection.  Do you also unplug the furnace, all clocks, dishwasher, refrigerator, air conditioner, and smoke detectors?  Most appliances cannot be unplugged.Humans rarely know a surge exists until after it happened.  Surges are also causes by stray cars, rodents, and linemen errors.  UPS does not protect from any of the typically hardware destructive anomalies.

Protection is connecting every incoming wire low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to single point earth ground.  IOW existing grounds are upgraded to both meet and exceed code requirements.  Code does not earth every incoming wire. Anomalies that can overwhelm protection inside appliances must exist at the service entrance.  It not required by existing human safety codes.

UPS has one function.  Temporary and 'dirty' power so that unsaved data can be saved.  Nothing (other than hearsay) claims a UPS protects any electronics from hardware damage. Sudden power loss is not hardware destructive.


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## WhoX (Jun 3, 2015)

Renzore101 said:


> http://stormhighway.com/surge_protectors_ups_lightning_protection_myth.php
> I bought a UPS to protect my PC from shutting down suddenly in the event of complete power loss, not so much lightning strikes.



Exactly. As I mentioned I already have surge protectors in the house, and they work. By-the-way, since the loss of my DSL equipment I have purchased a surge protector for network and telephone devices. The UPS as an extra layer of protection/security, as Renzore101 mentioned, is to prevent loss of data in case of a power failure.


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## Renzore101 (Jun 4, 2015)

westom said:


> Lightning is only one example.  Unplugging is a least reliable solution.  If anything needs protection, then everything needs protection.  Do you also unplug the furnace, all clocks, dishwasher, refrigerator, air conditioner, and smoke detectors?  Most appliances cannot be unplugged.Humans rarely know a surge exists until after it happened.  Surges are also causes by stray cars, rodents, and linemen errors.  UPS does not protect from any of the typically hardware destructive anomalies.
> 
> Protection is connecting every incoming wire low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to single point earth ground.  IOW existing grounds are upgraded to both meet and exceed code requirements.  Code does not earth every incoming wire. Anomalies that can overwhelm protection inside appliances must exist at the service entrance.  It not required by existing human safety codes.
> 
> UPS has one function.  Temporary and 'dirty' power so that unsaved data can be saved.  Nothing (other than hearsay) claims a UPS protects any electronics from hardware damage. Sudden power loss is not hardware destructive.



I presume you have a background in electrical engineering or the sort, but I believe you are missing the point. As I said, I bought a UPS specifically in regards to power outages. If the PC is booting and power is suddenly lost, critical system files can be corrupted damaging the OS, causing data loss. I understand the only  sure way to protect against a lightning strike is to disconnect any line that could conduct electricity to the PC.


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## Okedokey (Jun 4, 2015)

Renzore101 said:


> Hello CF,
> 
> I have a quick general question regarding surge protectors and UPS's. Today my power went out during a thunderstorm, and my PC lost power during this time twice.  I am not an electrician obviously, so I am just trying to gain some level of understanding of how this affects my PC. When the power goes out, then comes back on, a surge occurs correct? I am sure this  surge is nothing like a lightning strike, but it can probably cause damage to electronics all the same. Does a UPS better protect against electrical surges than a regular surge protector?



No that is not a surge.  A surge is an unexpected and uncontrolled rapid rise in voltage.  Most electronics these days (e.g. motherboards) can handle it to a point.  Your simply had a blackout that meant that anything stored in volatile memory couldn't be returned to the non-volatile memory prior to power outage.

A UPS simply allows for a graceful shutdown, and sometimes protects from surges.


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## Okedokey (Jun 4, 2015)

Renzore101 said:


> I presume you have a background in electrical engineering or the sort, but I believe you are missing the point. As I said, I bought a UPS specifically in regards to power outages. If the PC is booting and power is suddenly lost, critical system files can be corrupted damaging the OS, causing data loss. I understand the only  sure way to protect against a lightning strike is to disconnect any line that could conduct electricity to the PC.



Im not sure he has or hasn't but his pet topic is lightning and surges, and he has been proven wrong over and over again on this and other forums.


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## westom (Jun 4, 2015)

Renzore101 said:


> If the PC is booting and power is suddenly lost, critical system files can be corrupted damaging the OS, causing data loss.


Again, a UPS is only for 'unsaved' data.  Power loss during a disk write would corrupt files stored on obsolete filesystems (such as in Win 3.1/98/ME)  Those filesystems were obsoleted over 20 years ago.  If a sudden power loss at any time corrupts saved files on the disk, then the filesystem is obsolete technology.  Again, that UPS is not for hardware protection or to protect saved (non-volatile) data.


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## beers (Jun 4, 2015)

westom said:


> Power loss during a disk write would corrupt files stored on obsolete filesystems (such as in Win 3.1/98/ME)  Those filesystems were obsoleted over 20 years ago.



Facedesk.

Try writing files to a NTFS USB stick and pull it out of the interface.  Hey, instant file system corruption.  ALL file systems and storage devices are vulnerable to corruption/errors when losing power during writes.

If you worked in an enterprise environment you'd also have the opportunity to see this on a larger scale, especially in virtualized instances where people force stop servers instead of graceful shutdown.


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## westom (Jun 4, 2015)

WhoX said:


> By-the-way, since the loss of my DSL equipment I have purchased a surge protector for network and telephone devices.


  All phone lines and TV cable were required to have surge protection long before any of us existed.  A critical point was made.  That protector is only as effective as its earth ground.   Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.  A protector without earth ground (ie a UPS) does not even claim to protect from destructive types of surges.  It is not an effective layer of protection (except from the other type of surge already made irrelevant by protection inside all appliances).

An informed consumer concentrates on THE most important component of a protection system.  Some systems have no protectors.  But every layer of protection ALWAYS has an earth ground.  Each protection layer is defined only by the item that absorbs joules.  A picture demonstrates your 'primary' surge protection layer:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Cable has no surge protector.  Best protection is a hardwire connecting low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground.  Only you are responsible for providing that earth ground.  You define how effective that calbe protection is.

Same applies to DSL.  Since both phone wires cannot connect directly to earth, then we do a next best thing.  The telco installs a protector for free where their wires meet yours. A protector only does what a hardwire does better (says why UPS protection is ineffective).

How good is that free protector?  Well, how good is your earth ground?  Not just any earth ground as defined by an electrical code.  Protection of everything inside is defined by quality of and connection to "single point earth ground".

Obviously, none of this can be expressed in a sound byte.  Explains why most do not know surge protection. Then post cheap shots rather than technically informed facts and numbers.  Many foolishly assume a UPS does surge protection.  Protection means no surge current is anywhere inside the house.  That happens only when surges (lightning is one example) connect low impedance (ie wire without sharp bends) to single point earth ground - your 'secondary' protection layer.

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.

Damage is so easily averted that damage is considered a human mistake.  Inspect your 'primary' surge protection layer.

Does every wire inside every incoming cable (including a wireless dog fence) connect low impedance to single point earth ground?  Notice how many never knew cable and phone lines have long been required to install effective protectors.  But worse, most have no idea what defines protection - earth ground.

Even your 'whole house' protector is compromised if earthing is not done properly.  That protector does not do protection.  Protection is defined by what the 'whole house' protector connects to - low impedance (ie wire not inside metallic conduit).

If not obvious, this electrical engineer designed protection so that even direct lightning strikes did not cause damage.  Protectors are simple science.  'Art' of protection is earthing.


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## westom (Jun 4, 2015)

beers said:


> Try writing files to a NTFS USB stick and pull it out of the interface.  Hey, instant file system corruption.


  USB sticks do not use NTFS.  USB memory sticks use an obsolete technology called FAT.

Ever recover files from a corrupted USB stick?  I have using same tools I once used to recover files from a corrupted FAT disk.  And yes, it is tedious.

If FAT is interrupted during a file write, then the 'being saved' data is lost.  And the older version of that file is lost.  Again, a filesystem obsoleted over 20 years ago.

If an NTFS filesystem is interrupted during a write, then it simply reverts back to an older file.  NTFS even has multiple index tables so that is one if corrupted, then another is used for recovery.  Obsolete filesystems did not have this feature.

USB sticks do not have protective hardware found in hard drives.  A hard drive learns that power is going off.  Then finishes what is it doing and sets up for that power off.  Disk drives never learn about a power off (shutdown) until voltages start dropping.  That is how disk drives worked even long before PCs existed (when heads were even moved with motor oil).  Another protective feature not found in USB memory sticks.


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## beers (Jun 4, 2015)

westom said:


> USB sticks do not use NTFS.



You can format a USB stick to the filesystem of your choosing..  Also note that you wouldn't even be able to use sticks larger than 32 GB with FAT32.



			
				westom said:
			
		

> A hard drive learns that power is going off. Then finishes what is it doing and sets up for that power off.



Why would that make a difference when your (flawed) argument is that the file system is robust enough to recover from write interruptions?


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## westom (Jun 4, 2015)

beers said:


> Why would that make a difference when your (flawed) argument is that the file system is robust enough to recover from write interruptions?


 That answer was technically correct. Without basic hardware knowledge, you would not know why.  You should have also known about extensions that makes possible multiple FAT32  partitions.

You immediately denied/ignored what you never learned.  Every disk drive (even before PCs existed) learns about power off after AC power cuts off.  You should have known that before casting 'flawed' insults.  A USB stick has no such hardware protection feature. If you did hardware, then you knew why.  NTFS is designed in conjunction with disk hardware protection as part of a unified solution. A typical USB sticks does not have hardware to protect data from sudden power loss.  You should have known that.

Sudden power loss does not corrupt data on modern filesystems.  But a destructive event, that once occurred on obsolete filessystems, survives in  parables - 20 years later.


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## beers (Jun 4, 2015)

This is getting really off topic, but your arguments aren't even consistent.  If the filesystem depended on power-off notices then it wouldn't make a difference between old FAT filesystems and newer ones like NTFS.

You also did not consider deployments such as online/double-conversion UPSes where the primary circuit facing the equipment is not the AC circuit directly.  You mention UPSes that have no ground, please show me an example of such equipment.


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## Renzore101 (Jun 4, 2015)

http://superuser.com/questions/194412/is-ntfs-fail-safe-in-case-of-a-power-outage

*"I have personally handled on this site problems that went from suddenly appearing bad sectors and up to Windows installation completely hosed.

A computer is an extremely complex hardware, and modern hard disks have also become small computers of their own. Each has its own processor and memory, so each is vulnerable to power glitches happening at the wrong moment.

Even if NTFS is fail-safe (which I don't really believe), the components that handle changes to the hard disk are certainly not fail-safe. So the whole question is quite academical and doesn't relate to the real world.

The answer then has to be that NTFS is safer, but not fail-safe."*

@westom, I understand that you understand your word to be law, but I do not agree with you. An OS can be rendered 100% unbootable if a sudden outage occurs at the wrong moment, period.


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## westom (Jun 6, 2015)

beers said:


> You also did not consider deployments such as online/double-conversion UPSes where the primary circuit facing the equipment is not the AC circuit directly.


The underlying details of FAT vs NTFS are only summarized.  The reader only need know the bottom line.  NTFS and other such filesystems do not lose data due to suddenly power loss.  FAT does.

Same applies to your UPS reasoning.  If double conversion makes it better, well, a double conversion circuit already exists in computer power supplies.   Again, the point.  One who understands underlying electronic circuits knows why a UPS provides no advantage.  Any protection provided by a double conversion UPS was also the double conversion circuit routinely found in power supplies - even in the original IBM PC.

Same applies to a grasp of grounding.  Safety ground has been confused with earth ground.  An electrical difference was made obvious by concepts such as 'low impedance' and numbers such as 'less than 10 feet'.

Anything adjacent to electronics that would protect is already inside electronics.  Transients that might overwhelm that existing protection must be earthed - an electrically different ground - before a transient can enter the building. Please appreciate many and electrically different grounds.

Protection for appliances means a surge must be earthed BEFORE it enters the building.  Ground on a UPS does nothing useful.  Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipates.


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