# Graphics Card Machine Failure



## n64gk

Hi,

I have an urgent problem, i have recently bought a new nvidia geforce 8600 gt graphics card ( 1gb) and the other day i tried to run a game on it for the first time, ms flight simulator x, and as the game was 'loading terrain resources' the screen started flickering and then eventually the monitor said no video input received. I had a GPU temp monitor running at the time, which stated that it was running at 58 degrees, so i don't think it was an overheat issue. I then tried to boot the computer back up and i had very flickery video output, so i turned it off and went to bed, i got up this morning and turned it on, no video output at all, however the computer doesn't exhibit any other signs of error, i have tried using my old graphics card, running from inbuilt graphics, and resetting the CMOS. No avail, i have no idea what to do! 

Please Help!

n64gk


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## goranpaa

Hi!

That is really a tuff problem!!! It could  be that your power supply have gone down the bin. 

Btw. check for any burnt areas or leaking capasitators on the motherboard too.


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## n64gk

Hiya!

Thanks for replying so fast! I've tried pulling the bios battery already, no joy. What wouyld be the signs of a dead PSU?


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## goranpaa

n64gk said:


> Hiya!
> 
> Thanks for replying so fast! I've tried pulling the bios battery already, no joy. What wouyld be the signs of a dead PSU?



You're welcome.

Well, unfortunatly it's not easy to tell in this case without testing it with a multimeter, connector for connector. If your computer had been in the state of not fireing up at all? Then you  likely would have been able to see if the psu had kicked the infamous bucket? By looking at the psu fan or feel if there where any air coming out from it at the back of the case.


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## n64gk

The computer seems absolutely fine, other than the lack of output, it powers on, fans whir, no other bad signs


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## goranpaa

The last resort would be to bite the lemon and replace the psu anyway. Corsair psu's are good ones  for example. A 600 - 700 W will give you some future upgrade headroom.
A modular psu, will reduce the cable clutter noticeable.


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## n64gk

how much is one of those likely to cost me?


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## goranpaa

n64gk said:


> The computer seems absolutely fine, other than the lack of output, it powers on, fans whir, no other bad signs




Ok. and you can't see any burnt areas or leaking capasitators on the motherboard? Look extra closely at the area around the graphics slot.

Besides this and eventually a flaky psu. I can't unfortunatly give you any leads for the moment at least.



n64gk said:


> how much is one of those likely to cost me?



If you are from the USA?

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=7564403&CatId=1483

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=7564404&CatId=2533

Btw. I hope that your case are a normal sized mid tower  or a big tower case? If it's a tiny micro atx case? These psu's won't likely fit.


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## n64gk

im from the UK


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## goranpaa

Ok. But read what I added above about the size of your case?

https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/part/corsair-power-supply-cx600m


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## n64gk

how do i find out my case size, eg if i need an ATX psu?


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## goranpaa

Now I have to leave the forum for the moment. Will check this tread out in the eve though.



n64gk said:


> how do i find out my case size, eg if i need an ATX psu?



Is this is a prebuildt pc? Then go the manufacturers home site and check the measurements out.

Or measure your case first.

Then go here and compaire your case to the cases that they have:

http://www.newegg.com/Computer-Cases/Category/ID-9

Any luck finding out the case size?


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## n64gk

no, but i havent really tried as of yet, as i really dont think its a PSU issue, ive been trying to find other explanations... without success


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## goranpaa

Ok. But I still think it's the psu. OR eventually  the motherboard itself? And either way? If you get a qualty psu now? You can use that later on if you build a new rig. And then have saved yourself some bucks in the process in the long run.

My Corsair HX psu are now feeding my second rig  since I bought this psu 5 years ago. So spreading out the cost over these years it have been cheap.


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## n64gk

yeah i think that's probably a good call, also there are no blown capacitors on the board (just to let you know) and also what would be the signs of a faulty PSU, also i cant find any info on beep codes for my board/bios (i dont really know what to look for)


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## goranpaa

Leaking capasitators could be for some different reasons really. One of them could be a bad psu though.

A faulty psu, can not feed the hardware as it should and then they / it wont run at all or just by chanse for  a short while. A bad psu, can even fry hardware in the worst scenario.

Ok. But do you know the brand and the model of your motherboard? Othervice, look around the edges of it. There should be some sort of a printed label or a sticker there. For example: Gigabyte = brand GA-970A-DS3P = model.

When you have found that out. It should be possible to find out what kind of bios it have got by Google some. And then look at Google again for the beep codes.


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## n64gk

i know the model of my computer, and also the BIOS ive tried looking for engraving on the  MOBO for what model it is, i cant find any??


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## goranpaa

Give me the computer brand and model. And I will try to find the codes out.


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## n64gk

cheers, its an Asus T3-P5G31 Mini Tower Barebone Personal Computer

does that help


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## goranpaa

Yes thanks. It's an AMI bios: http://www.bioscentral.com/beepcodes/amibeep.htm


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## n64gk

it has always done one beep when it boots, i just took this as normal POSTing, and now it does the one normal beep, and after about 5 seconds it does the other two very rapidly, does that come under 2 short, or 1 long and 2 short, the first one isnt long, but its longer than the other short ones


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## goranpaa

n64gk said:


> it has always done one beep when it boots, i just took this as normal POSTing, and now it does the one normal beep, and after about 5 seconds it does the other two very rapidly, does that come under 2 short, or 1 long and 2 short, the first one isnt long, but its longer than the other short ones




As I understand it? It could be either a memory failure or a post problem. OR a video problem. 

Maybe you should take out one RAM stick at the time and see what happends? It might be worth to try?


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## n64gk

okay yeah, that sounds like a good idea, ive tried taking out all of the ram sticks and just booting on one, but i havent tried lots of combinations, im working at the moment but when i stop for lunch i'll try it and get back to you, thanks!


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## goranpaa

If you have to replace the motherboard? It will have to be a micro ATX board with processor socket: Intel  socket 775. That could be tricky to find as it's an old processor and socket type.



n64gk said:


> okay yeah, that sounds like a good idea, ive tried taking out all of the ram sticks and just booting on one, but i havent tried lots of combinations, im working at the moment but when i stop for lunch i'll try it and get back to you, thanks!



You're welcome.

Ok. I will back here in the  late afternoon or in the early eve.


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## n64gk

that doesnt sound right as it has an AMD processor and the socket is AM2, or is that the same thing?

are you sure you've found the right board?


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## goranpaa

Yes, I checked the socket in the PDF manual. Btw. just in case ( no pun intended  ) Here are a suitable motherbord:

http://www.ebuyer.com/249334-asrock...-775-gb-lan-6-channel-audio-matx-g31m-gs-r2-0


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## n64gk

i think if i needed to replace it i would just buy a new mobo with a new processor and then plug my old hdd and graphics card into it. So is this one youve suggested an old one? what processor does it take? and thanks very much btw


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## goranpaa

n64gk said:


> i think if i needed to replace it i would just buy a new mobo with a new processor and then plug my old hdd and graphics card into it. So is this one youve suggested an old one? what processor does it take? and thanks very much btw



Yes, your motherboard, cpu and RAM are pretty outdated.

The kind of motherboard you have now can handle any Intel cpu that have a corresponding socket.

In my opinion, the best way would be to go for some more modern motherboard, processor and RAM.

If you want cheap but good stuff? I can recommend the AMD FX 6300, socket AM 3+. 6 core cpu. And a suitable Asus or Gigabyte micro ATX mobo with USB  3.0 ports. + 4 - 8 gigabyte of DDR3, 1600 MHz RAM. But if you are running a 32 bit Windows? 2 gigabyte of RAM will do as 32 bit Windows only can handle max 3 gigabyte of RAM anyway.

Your present psu are only 250W, So maybe you should still as soon as possible, get a more powerful one and even a good midtower or a fulltower case with 120 mm fans ( Then especially such a case with a 120 -240 mm rear case exhaust fan / fans ).

Antec, Corsair or CoolerMaster are good case brands.

You're welcome.


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## n64gk

okay so update, ive managed to get it working again, each ram stick, one stick at a time, so now im going to try multiple sticks to see if a slot has broken, and if that works then ill try the other gpu again until i find the faulty component


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## johnb35

n64gk said:


> that doesnt sound right as it has an AMD processor and the socket is AM2, or is that the same thing?



According to the specs it is an Intel socket 775 not an AMD AM2.  Go into the system properties once inside windows and tell us what it says.  What makes you think its an AM2 socket?


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## goranpaa

n64gk said:


> okay so update, ive managed to get it working again, each ram stick, one stick at a time, so now im going to try multiple sticks to see if a slot has broken, and if that works then ill try the other gpu again until i find the faulty component



Very nice!  If you also get the videocard up and running as it should? It will be either a RAM stick or as you suggested the motherboard RAM slot.


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## n64gk

it is definitely an AMD athlon 64 X2 dual core processor 5000+ 2.61 ghz socket AM2 as i have a program called CPUID open, and also windows 8.1 'system' open, and they are both telling me this

yeah im currently on the machine, with the old gpu uninstalling all the graphics drivers incase its a driver issue


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## goranpaa

n64gk said:


> it is definitely an AMD athlon 64 X2 dual core processor 5000+ 2.61 ghz socket AM2 as i have a program called CPUID open, and also windows 8.1 'system' open, and they are both telling me this



That is very strange as the PDF manual said it whas Intel socket LGA 775. Very confusing!!!
But it's just very good if it's the AMD X2 dual core.


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## n64gk

i now have all 4 ram sticks in, so all i have to do now is install the new gpu, should i wipe the CMOS before doing so?


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## johnb35

n64gk said:


> it is definitely an AMD athlon 64 X2 dual core processor 5000+ 2.61 ghz socket AM2 as i have a program called CPUID open, and also windows 8.1 'system' open, and they are both telling me this



Then you must have put your own motherboard and processor in it then because the stock Asus T3-P5G31 is an Intel system not AMD.


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## n64gk

i honestly havent, it has a stock asus motherboard in it


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## johnb35

Go into cpuid and click on the mainboard tab and tell me what motherboard you have.


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## goranpaa

n64gk said:


> yeah im currently on the machine, with the old gpu uninstalling all the graphics drivers incase its a driver issue



Aha, great! Let's hope that the other card will fire up as it should now.


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## n64gk

yeah i hope so! goranpaa, and johnb35 it says it is an ASUSTeK M2N5-BN


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## goranpaa

Yeah, that is an AMD socket AM2 mobo. That makes me wonder if not Asus have at least 2 revisions / generations of this computer? And yours are rev. B or similar?


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## n64gk

on CPUID is said revision 1.x.x is that relevant?


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## goranpaa

Not really, it's  only of interest if you are looking at an AMD AM2 motherboard then. It won't tell if there are more revisons of that actual computer model?


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## n64gk

also when i boot it says CMOS CHECKSUM BAD what is this?


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## goranpaa

Hmm, but there are an identical model called T3-M3N8200 That comes with an AMD AM2 mobo and cpu. Could it be that your computer had got the wrong label from Asus? :-/



n64gk said:


> also when i boot it says CMOS CHECKSUM BAD what is this?





First, check in the bios on the PC health page to see what the motherboard battery voltage reading is?
I'm starting to suspect that your motherboard, coin battery are running low. If that's the case? The bios will loose it's memory.


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## n64gk

thanks, in other news, the issue appears to have resolved itself, ive plugged everything back in, applied some thermal paste to the new gpu, which is now idling at a steady 57 degrees, which i thought was acceptable. also one thought, when i got the card, i manually increased the fan rpm with overclocking software, could this have drawn too much power from my not great PSU and caused the system to fail?

okay new problem, i got the system booted, everything working fine, all good, then i installed the graphics drivers and all of a sudden my machine is really laggy, crashy and slow??


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## johnb35

Assuming you are running windows 8.1 64 bit, did you download this driver?

http://www.geforce.com/drivers/results/77224


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## n64gk

i am running windows 8.1 64 bit and i am using that driver


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## johnb35

Sorry if I missed it but what exact power supply do you have?  You need a good 450 watt unit to power the 8600gt.


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## n64gk

i have a DELTA GPS-300AB C E00 i dont know what wattage this is. My machine is now working fine, its working really fast and the gpu is staying below 60 degrees, although i havent tried to run a game yet as this is what crashed it last time, should i try?


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## johnb35

NO, do not run the new card on that power supply.  It won't push it and you'll do some damage to your system.  You will need a good 450 watt unit to push the video card. Where you buy your parts from so we can recommend a power supply to get.


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## n64gk

alright, am i safe to continue just running windows on it, as it doesnt appear to be struggling? but i will not run anything heavy at all, i mostly buy my parts from ebay.


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## johnb35

Look for the corsair cx500 model.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139027&cm_re=cx500-_-17-139-027-_-Product

That will leave you room for upgrades.


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## n64gk

okay thanks, so for reference i am going for a 500w psu, also i dont know what case size my pc is

also how does this look?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-QUIET...omputing_PowerSupplies_EH&hash=item19ed829a83


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## goranpaa

First of all, try to measure your powersupply. As it sits in a very small case it might be a small form factor.

Buy a psu from the reknown brands instead like Antec, Corsair or CoolerMaster for example.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CORSAIR-C...-/111487348866?pt=PCA_UPS&hash=item19f529f082

The Corsair I linked to measure as follow:  5.9"(W) x 3.4"(H) X 5.5"(L); 150mm(W) x 86mm(H) x 140mm(L)


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## n64gk

is Alpine a good make? i have found a 500w alpine psu


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## goranpaa

Nope, qutie a problematic brand. Customer reviews are poor for that brand.

As said, check out Antec, CoolerMaster and Corsair. Btw OCZ too.

This got good reviews....Not only from customers: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OCZ-550W-...omputing_PowerSupplies_EH&hash=item1e92e65046


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## n64gk

yes i know, its just those brands are rather expensive and i dont have a great deal of money to spend on this, also can a psu be too powerful, is there any danger of that?


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## goranpaa

Have you checked out the OCZ psu I did listed abouve? 

No, it can't be too powerful. But anything abouve 750W are overkill. You manage well with a 600 - 700W too. Then you will have that headroom for upgrading to really power hungry video cards in the future as I meansioned before. A 500 - 550W, will do for a while at least. I likely will have to swap my 520W psu the next time I upgrade the video card.

The only "danger" with  lets's say an 900W or more is the electricity bill.


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## n64gk

yes i checked it out, thanks very much for the suggestion  and yes i was thinking go for a bigger one, in case i want to upgrade my GPU again in future, but i just thought i'd check. Before i ordered one i just wanted to shop around a bit, can you suggest any other brands aside from those three?

thanks for your continued patience!


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## goranpaa

n64gk said:


> yes i checked it out, thanks very much for the suggestion  and yes i was thinking go for a bigger one, in case i want to upgrade my GPU again in future, but i just thought i'd check. Before i ordered one i just wanted to shop around a bit, can you suggest any other brands aside from those three?
> 
> thanks for your continued patience!



You're welcome. It feels good to try o help you out.

Here you have a couple of more suggestions:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antec-HCG...-750w-PC-Power-Supply-80-Bronze-/171503230112

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Coolermas...omputing_PowerSupplies_EH&hash=item58a0c092cc

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-Coole...omputing_PowerSupplies_EH&hash=item486b662771

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Corsair-T...omputing_PowerSupplies_EH&hash=item2a45ae1153

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Corsair-M...omputing_PowerSupplies_EH&hash=item19f5258a6a

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Corsair-C...omputing_PowerSupplies_EH&hash=item4188b2ea29

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CORSAIR-C...omputing_PowerSupplies_EH&hash=item4188b328ae

The psu's I have listed here are the best for the lowest price tag I could find.


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## n64gk

aah thank you so much! is something like this good too?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Corsair-C...05&prg=10513&rk=1&rkt=6&sd=111487060586&rt=nc


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## johnb35

n64gk said:


> aah thank you so much! is something like this good too?
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Corsair-C...05&prg=10513&rk=1&rkt=6&sd=111487060586&rt=nc



Yes, thats a fine unit there.


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## n64gk

thank you! just a quick 'out of interest question' what is a modular PSU?

how does this look
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/600w-aerocool-integrator-80plus-eff-psu-with-120mm-black-fan


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## goranpaa

n64gk said:


> aah thank you so much! is something like this good too?
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Corsair-C...05&prg=10513&rk=1&rkt=6&sd=111487060586&rt=nc


''

Yeah, nothing wrong with that Corsair psu. Even their cheaper models are good.

"Modular" means that most of the cables are plug in. Wich means that you only use the ones you need for the moment. That will in it's turn reduce the cable clutter and improve the air flow in the box. Something that are really good for a small case such as yours.

The Aerocool psu according to one test review and some customer reviews are a decent one and good for the low price tag. Simply an ok. budget psu and nothing more. Nothing for a for a higher end rig in other words. As beeing such a psu, it's hard to appriciate the life span of it really. A quality psu normally runs well between 5 - 8 years I have been told.


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## n64gk

brilliant, thanks for all the detailed info. After doing some shopping around, i am now entirely confused as to how many 12v rails i need ( or what they are) and how many amps it should supply, and i was wondering if you could shed some light on this, cheers.


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## johnb35

Ideally you want a single rail psu with enough wattage that your system needs to perform correctly.  Some of those cheap 500 watt psu's only have about 375 watts or less on the 12 volt rail.


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## n64gk

from your tone i assume that 375 watts on the 12v rail isnt sufficient, what should i aim for? so if i go for the corsair 500w listed above, will that suffice??


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## goranpaa

To play it safe, I would say go for the Corsair 500W. It's after all better to have a 500W that really delivers steady amps and watts for a long time than a budget 750 W or so that may not.
Come to think about it, as long as you have that small form factor case. It won't be able to house one of the long and more power hungry, higher end video cards anyway. So the 500W will work totally ok. for your rig.


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## StrangleHold

http://www.computerforum.com/231065-no-power-please-help-thank-you-2.html


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## n64gk

yeah i added this thread because i thought this one may be in the wrong section, and then didnt know how to delete it

and thanks very much goranpaa, i am intending to get the 500w corsair builders series, ill update you when this arrives, just as to whether it solves my problem or not, thanks!


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## goranpaa

You're welcome.

I keep my crossables crossed that the new psu will solve the problem.


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## n64gk

would a 430 watt corsair builder series work for me? it is rated 4.9 out of 5 stars and is only 31 pounds


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## goranpaa

I don't  think that is a good idea at all. The "weakest" psu you should aim at are still a 500W. Anything lower than that would just be a waste of money in the end.


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## n64gk

i just bought this PSU http://www.amazon.co.uk/Corsair-Builder-Series-Modular-Certified/dp/B00ALK1GFC so lets hope its the right one!


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## goranpaa

That's a good pick yes. I guess and hope for that you have compaired the mesurements with your present psu before buying the Corsair?

The Corsair measurements: 5.9"(W) x 3.4"(H) x 5.5"(L)


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## n64gk

yes i did, however if it doesnt fit i can just send it back, resell it, or buy a new case, as i need one, also as i have quite a small case i was thinking of fitting a fan, can i just stick these anywhere in the case, close to an air vent port in the case?


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## goranpaa

n64gk said:


> yes i did, however if it doesnt fit i can just send it back, resell it, or buy a new case, as i need one, also as i have quite a small case i was thinking of fitting a fan, can i just stick these anywhere in the case, close to an air vent port in the case?



Good!

The easiest way would be to get a slot cooler, exhaust fan with as high CFM = Cubic Foot per Meter air pressure as possible and with and with as low decibel noise level as possible like this one:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Evercool-SB-F1-slot-system-exhaust/dp/B004ZSC0XS

The downside with a slot cooler is that they are quite noisy though. But at least, it will shave off some degrees.


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## n64gk

hi guys! long time no see, so after about 4 hours of struggling, i've managed to get the new PSU installed, its all good. although now i have a new issue (i think) everytime i try and run anything graphically intensive, my computer locks up and bluescreens and states dcp_watchdog_violation, i have no idea?


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## goranpaa

n64gk said:


> hi guys! long time no see, so after about 4 hours of struggling, i've managed to get the new PSU installed, its all good. although now i have a new issue (i think) everytime i try and run anything graphically intensive, my computer locks up and bluescreens and states dcp_watchdog_violation, i have no idea?



Nice that the psu are working as it should. 

As for this new problem.

First, get a fresh videocard driver and then uninstall the present  driver as said in this tread:

http://www.computerforum.com/230370...nstall-graphics-drivers-amd-nvidia-intel.html



If that does'nt work? Check the following trouble shooting out:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...8-solved/8ce8fa54-9e1b-4b57-98b2-4dbb2a25864e


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## n64gk

cheers, also if i change any of the bios settings, date/time fans etc. when i press f10 to save and reboot then it just doesnt reboot, then if i manually turn the pc off and then turn it back on, all the fans go to full power and i get no output unless i take apart the machine, pull the CMOS battery and start again


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## goranpaa

Hmm, that sounds like you should get a new motherboard battery. It seems like the one you have have are too low on power and then bios loose it's memory. Or in the worst scenario you need to update / flash a new bios.

http://www.computerforum.com/175224-flashing-bios-tech-guide.html


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## n64gk

ive just changed the bios battery, and the problem persists, if i change anything in the bios, even the time, all the fans go to full and there is no video output, at which point i have to pull all the cables, hold down the power button for a minute, and then leave it for 5 mins before it will power on


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## goranpaa

n64gk said:


> ive just changed the bios battery, and the problem persists, if i change anything in the bios, even the time, all the fans go to full and there is no video output, at which point i have to pull all the cables, hold down the power button for a minute, and then leave it for 5 mins before it will power on



Then I belive a new bios flash are called for. But maybe someone else here have a simpler soloution to your problem?

Just to make sure. Have you checked that the motherboard  power connector are seated as it should and likevise the one for the cpu?


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## n64gk

yes they are seated entirely correctly, how would i go about updating my bios considering i am running windows 8.1


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## goranpaa

Look at the bios flash guide I linked to a couple  of anvers abouve.


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## n64gk

also if i shutdown my pc from within windows and then attempt to boot, it does the whole fans max thing unless i do what i stated above?


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## goranpaa

Normally the fans can speed up for a couple of seconds when booting. But should throttle down again. What  settings do you have for the  fans in bios?


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## n64gk

yep normally the fans speed up for between 0.5 and 2 seconds before throttling down, just before the pc posts however if i shut the pc down and try to boot, or if i change anything in the bios then try to boot, the fans just stay on max indefinitely until i turn the pc off by holding the off button, and the fans are set to AMD cool'n'quiet in the bios, as well as smart-q control (thermally controlled)


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## goranpaa

That's strange!

This is a kind of a long shot. But check if any of the RAM sticks might not be all the way down in the slot? And also redo the RAM stick test by just booting with one stick in the mobo at the time if the first thing I suggested did'nt work that is?


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## n64gk

i thought so too!

I've reseated the RAM several time, so i know it must be all the way down in the slot, and it often works with just one RAM stick, even though both the two different types of memory are listed in the compatibility manual for the machine. Also memtest never finds anything


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## goranpaa

n64gk said:


> i thought so too!
> 
> I've reseated the RAM several time, so i know it must be all the way down in the slot, and it often works with just one RAM stick, even though both the two different types of memory are listed in the compatibility manual for the machine. Also memtest never finds anything



It might be then that the motherboard does'nt like the other stick  for some strange reason? I had before an Infinity motherboard that did that. And you could'nt fill all 4 RAM slots, not even with compatipble sticks either.


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## n64gk

it says on the user manual that you can have all 4 slots filled for dual channel memory and when i post the computer it says 128 bit dual channel memory 3498mb installed (even though i have 4gb)


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## johnb35

I've done some digging on your machine.  It seems you actually have model number T3-M2NC51PV which has the motherboard cpuz says you have. Can you tell me what version of bios is installed?  The latest version is 0601.  Sounds like either a bad motherboard or possible bad cmos battery.


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## goranpaa

Are you on a 32 bit Windows? That might exsplain why you do not see the full 4 gb of RAM?


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## n64gk

yes this looks to be my machine, and no i am running 64 bit windows 8.1, however i will have to check the bios version for you in the morning as i am not with my pc at the moment


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## Okedokey

n64gk said:


> cheers, also if i change any of the bios settings, date/time fans etc. when i press f10 to save and reboot then it just doesnt reboot, then if i manually turn the pc off and then turn it back on, all the fans go to full power and i get no output unless i take apart the machine, pull the CMOS battery and start again



Clear the CMOS again.  Save and restart.  It will restart and then go in and load default settings (F5), save and restart.  then go in load your custom settings and save and restart.  BE PATIENT.  It will shutdown and seem off, but in 10 seconds or so it will start.  It may do this several times.


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## n64gk

Okedokey said:


> Clear the CMOS again.  Save and restart.  It will restart and then go in and load default settings (F5), save and restart.  then go in load your custom settings and save and restart.  BE PATIENT.  It will shutdown and seem off, but in 10 seconds or so it will start.  It may do this several times.



im not quite sure i understand what you mean, whenever i turn my pc off i have to clear the cmos

also every time it turns on after clearing the cmos, it says working on updates before it enters windows, i dont know if theres any significance in that



johnb35 said:


> I've done some digging on your machine.  It seems you actually have model number T3-M2NC51PV which has the motherboard cpuz says you have. Can you tell me what version of bios is installed?  The latest version is 0601.  Sounds like either a bad motherboard or possible bad cmos battery.



okay so ive gone back to my machine, and im running bios version 0402, so could that contribute to the problem?

that pc looks just like mine, except I can install 4gb of ram on my system not 2gb


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## johnb35

n64gk said:


> that pc looks just like mine, except I can install 4gb of ram on my system not 2gb



It has a max ram of 4gb not 2gb so most likely it is your machine.  If you aren't familiar with working on computers, you may need to take this in somewhere to have it diagnosed correctly.  First off, try replacing the cmos battery and see what happens.  Since this is a store bought pc, I wouldn't think the motherboard would be grounding out against the case.  You could try building the motherboard outside of the case and see how it reacts as well.  Other than that, it seems it could be a motherboard issue.


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## n64gk

I only said because on the manual for the system you suggested it said that it has a max RAM of 4gb. I replaced the cmos battery yesterday and when I did it wouldn't boot at all, it just did the max fans on until I shut it off manually, so I cleared the cmos and put the old battery in and it started up again, is there any chance a malfunctioning graphics card or an out of date bios could cause this?


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## johnb35

You did get the correct battery right?  There are a few to choose from but most generally its a cr2032 battery.  I've looked at the bios updates but none say anything about the issues you are having.


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## n64gk

yup, i have a varta cr2032 5v li-mn battery, also i cant work out how to update the bios on this machine as the old asus update program cant contact the ftp server for the update


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## goranpaa

Ok. but why not just get the bios by downloading it "manually" sort of saying from Asus home instead? Or get a new version of the update program?

http://support.asus.com/download/options.aspx?SLanguage=en


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## n64gk

because i dont even know how to manually update the bios, theres no update option in the bios


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## goranpaa

n64gk said:


> because i dont even know how to manually update the bios, theres no update option in the bios



Ok. but as said, you might be able to get a newer version of the update program instead. And either way, this guide should help:

http://www.computerforum.com/175224-flashing-bios-tech-guide.html Just click on the link.


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## n64gk

oh sorry i didnt see the winflash bit of that guide, and there is no updated version of the autoupdater, thanks!


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## goranpaa

You're welcome. I hope that the flash guide will solve the problem for you.


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## johnb35

The Asus bios update utility has issues so I wouldn't use it to download the correct bios.  I tried using it a couple months ago on an Asus motherboard and it could never connect to the server. 

Please contact Asus to verify what system you have.  If really have the model I linked you to then you would need to download this file and unzip it. 

http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/Barebone/T3-M2NC51PV/M2N50601.zip

Use the asus update program to update bios from file.  Point the update to the file you unzipped and continue.  

Please note that if you try updating to the wrong bios, you will brick your motherboard and it will need to be rma'd to Asus for them to fix.  I take no responsibility for this.


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## n64gk

okay so I have removed my new graphics card and have replaced it with my old one, and all of my system instability has disappeared, bios is working fine etc. I assume it was a fault in the card, or is it all new cards in my machine? 

Obviously I am now looking to purchase a new card, is there a limit to the graphics card I can by for my machine, not form factor wise, but like the actual specification of the card? could this have caused the problem?


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## goranpaa

Arrgh! Now I start to suspect that this video card are the main sorce to a lot of the problems that you had before. It's likely damaged in some way? Did you buy it used?
Then the previous owner might had done a bad overclock or a  bios update that did go wrong that made the card go flaky. It's always a risky affair to buy a video card or a cpu used. You never know what the previous owner have done to it?

There are only 2 limitits besides the form factor that is.

1. You should'nt buy any card that require more than your 500W Psu.

2. Not buying any card that is that powerful it will be bottlenecked by your cpu. Then that card will be a waste of money for obvious reasons.

But I belive that if not the card length will be any problems? These are a good and decently priced midrange gaming cards:

http://www.ebuyer.com/663141-msi-r9...i-displayport-pci-e-graphics-r9-270-gaming-2g

L: 263 mm, W: 120 mm, H: 38 mm.

Not as powerful as the Radeon card but still a pretty nice card for midrange gaming.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gigabyte-NVIDIA-750Ti-PCI-E-Graphics/dp/B00IGQ4UX8

Dimensions: L=204 mm , W=144 mm,  H=42 mm.


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## n64gk

so its likely that it was that particular card that was the issue and not my machine when coupled with a new card? 

and thanks very much for your detailed reply, however those far exceed the budget i am willing to spend on a new card, im not after a serious gaming machine, and i would prefer to buy the card from somewhere like ebay, to save a few bucks

cheers


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## goranpaa

Yes, it's very likely that card that is the problem. Had it been the graphics slot on the mobo? Then your other card would'nt have worked either.

What is you max budget for a videocard, if I may ask?


You're welcome.


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## n64gk

I only really want to spend around £40 however if I can sell my old graphics card and PSU then £60 but at the moment not that much.


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## goranpaa

Ok. I will see what I can find for you in that price range?


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## n64gk

Thank you very much! The cheaper/better value for money, the better


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## goranpaa

You're welcome. Just glad if I can help you a little bit.  This is probably the most decent card to get for that kind of money:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PNY-GeForce-GTX-650-Ti-1024-MB-VCGGTX650T1XPB-Graphics-Card-/351200114057

I think you told before that the faulty card whas a Geforce 8800GT? Then the GTX 650 Ti card abouve is quite much faster anyway: http://www.hwcompare.com/13783/geforce-8800-gt-512mb-vs-geforce-gtx-650-ti/


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## n64gk

That looks exactly what I am after, also it was the 8600GT causing problems, thanks so much! Was this the only one on eBay of that price range?


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## goranpaa

There is a new Asian No name copy too for 35,59 GBP but I won't dare to say how that is quality vise? But the cooler looks decent anyway. But with such No name things you wont get any warranties worth the name.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GeForce-G...raphics_Video_TV_Cards_TW&hash=item3ce9e393f9

Well, if it's about a 8600GT vs the GTX 650 TI? It's like compairing an old 60's WV beetle car with a Ferrari


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## n64gk

So is PNY a good make?

is this card any good?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gainward-...raphics_Video_TV_Cards_TW&hash=item2ed8858a21


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## goranpaa

n64gk said:


> So is PNY a good make?



Yeah, they are ok. Have been around for many years now.



n64gk said:


> is this card any good?
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gainward-...raphics_Video_TV_Cards_TW&hash=item2ed8858a21



Naah! That is more or less a new version of the 8600GT. But maybe a 9800GT or GTX would be  something for you? It's at least a little newer generation and still faster than the 8600GT.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gainward-...raphics_Video_TV_Cards_TW&hash=item2c8f887a74

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GIGABYTE-...892?pt=PCC_Video_TV_Cards&hash=item3f3f5aa1b4

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Asus-Nvid...raphics_Video_TV_Cards_TW&hash=item3a9a0e7c6a

Of these, looking a bit closer. I think the Asus card are the best bet. Second the Gainward. I did'nt notice before that the Gigabyte card comes from the USA and therefore will be more exspensive. Sorry.

The 8800GT and the 9800 GT whas Nvidias middle of the road card at  that time. The GTX version whas the big brother.


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## n64gk

right, i'm very inclined to buy the asus, if I were to buy that now, is it a good choice?

also when shopping around for cards, what are some important features to look out for?

also how come the asus would be preferable? it has the memory type DDR3 whereas the Gainward has GDDR3, I thought this was better? excuse my ignorance ;-)

final question (sorry to bombard you) but does my mobo need a PCIe power socket? or does that come built into the card


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## goranpaa

n64gk said:


> right, i'm very inclined to buy the asus, if I were to buy that now, is it a good choice?
> 
> also when shopping around for cards, what are some important features to look out for?



I think so. Asus have always been good at making videocards....And motherboards for that matter.

Without getting too technical, the important features that are easy to find out, are first of all the cooling system. A card coming with a big cooler / fan or fans, will tell that it will be quiet even under longer periods at load, and have a good cooling ability. Stay away from any card that have the tiny Nvidia or AMD / Radeon reference cooler and fan.

Like this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130468

As much GDDR memory as possible and preferably a 256 megabit memory bus. Cards that have a 128 megabit bus will be slightly bottlenecked memory vise. Now, you will have to have in mind that 90 % of the videocards some years old came with that kind of memory bus. It whas only the very  expensive, high end ones at that time that had  larger mermory buses.



n64gk said:


> also how come the asus would be preferable? it has the memory type DDR3 whereas the Gainward has GDDR3, I thought this was better? excuse my ignorance ;-)



As said, it have a good cooling system, Asus are a reknown brand. The "DDR 3" are a typo though. All videocards comes with GDDR memory = Graphics memory.
Looking at the provided photos, I belive that the owner takes good care of his hardware as he have the original box, and even the plastic bag for the adapter. Anyway, that is a good indication.
Likely, this card have been lying around unused in it's box for a very long time since he upgraded. And now he have decided to sell it.

As for your  second question:

Motherboards only comes with one kind of videocard socket. You can't fit the old kind of AGP videocard into a PCI e card slot and vise versa.

The only other kind of a video card that can be fitted into a motherboard with a PCI e slot. Is a PCI videocard. But then it will have to go into a normal PCI card slot on the mobo. This kind of card is very rare today. But you could find a used one now and then. Or if any shop have one lying around collecting dust somewhere? The only reason that the PCI slot videocards where made, whas for the very old motherboards that lacked any kind of a normal AGP graphics slot at that time. And this card only had any usefulness at all in a workstation / office Pc really.


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## n64gk

thanks, once again for amazing advice!! so taking that into account, the Asus would be the way to go, I have an asus mobo and so am familiar with their systems, also it comes with an asus aftermarket cooler installed, a plus in terms of long term load, my new PSU should be able to handle it, and also (according to this http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-9800gt/specifications) it has a 256 bit memory bus

goddammit, I was about to buy it and then the listing ended, square one


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## goranpaa

You're welcome.

Yeah, no problems for your psu to handle that card. These older cards often had a very low power draw with a few exceptions for the higher end cards.

Yay! That whas really sad.  Let's see if I can find a similar card for the money then?

Othervise? Stay with the card you have until you have a 60 - 70 bucks to spend on a new card. It's much easier to find something ok. at E Bay at that price range really.


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## goranpaa

Hmm, this maybe ? It's the Radeon equivalent of the 9800GT.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ASUS-ATI-...004?pt=PCC_Video_TV_Cards&hash=item3f3e9e7644

Or this, that whas the model that replaced the 9800GT:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gainward-...-1GB-HDMI-VGA-DVI-Graphics-Card-/191392050052

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PNY-NVIDI...E-Dual-DVI-VCGGTS2501XPB-TESTED-/281477226981

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MSI-NVIDI...eo_Capture_TV_Tuner_Cards&hash=item3ce85654c4

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GEFORCE-G...I-VIDEO-CARD-HOME-BUSINESS-GAME-/371166745513

I guess that the dollar price is if you buy it in the states? And the GBP price tag are if you buy it from Great Britain? Or am I wrong here?


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## n64gk

the first one in that second list looks good to me, i dont want to order from the states, so is this http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...ww.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gainward-N...-/191392050052 (the second one) one worth getting?


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## goranpaa

Ok.

Yeah, Gainward is'nt a bad manufacturer. I have had 2 cards from them down the years and can't say I did regret buying them. I think Gainward are an English brand even? 

The only little warning sign I can raise, is that I hope that their customer service have improved since then? Because it whas quite lousy before. But on the other hand, in the computer hardware world that is unfortunatly a quite common thing.


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## n64gk

customer service isnt a problem anyway as the ebayer provides their own warranty, righty i'll get onto buying that


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## goranpaa

No, it's after all a used card.  Just said that anyway. 

The GTS 250 whas a nice card for it's time really.

Btw. Gainward are using quality Hynix memory for their video cards. That will allow some good overclocking of them ( and the gpu ) if you want later on?

I keep my crossables crossed that this card will work flawless now.

It would be interesting to hear what you think about it when you have runned it for a while.


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## n64gk

cheers, i would like to overclock definitely, although i am extremely inexperienced at it and wouldnt even know where to begin


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## goranpaa

We can  take that lesson when you are going to oc. I can say though that overclocking a videocard are definite easier than doing it to a cpu.
You only need a videocard oc program and a stress test program like Furmark for example as tools. Both can be downloaded for free.

Now I'm off line for some food. See you later.


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## n64gk

hiya, quick question. Im currently waiting on the graphics card and as its pretty big in my relatively small case, i thought id move my mobo across to a new case, as i had an old one lying around. as per most normal cases, this one has the horizontal panels for PCIe cards oriented underneath the like back bezel that has all the usb's and connections for onboard graphics (not sure what its called) whereas for some reason i noticed that my current mobo has the pcie slots above the back panel thing, and therefore wont fit into a normal case, like they have swapped around. is this totally proprietary or is there any case i can put my mobo in, like a certain type?

thanks


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## johnb35

You won't be able to switch cases as the motherboard isn't standard layout.


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## n64gk

are there no cases whatsoever, or no modifications i could make, to fit this mobo


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## n64gk

right ive done some googling and I think its a BTX motherboard


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## goranpaa

Taken from Wikipedia:

" Compatibility with ATX products

In the first months of production the ATX and BTX motherboards were so similar that moving a BTX motherboard to an ATX case was possible and vice-versa. This was possible because the first BTX motherboards were ATX motherboards turned upside down, except for the component location that really were BTX positioning.[2]

Later the BTX form factor had a big change by turning it into a mirror image of the ATX standard. Since the new motherboard design, both standards are incompatible. Basically BTX motherboards are 'leftside-right' compared to ATX and not upside-down as before: i.e. they are mounted on the opposite side of the case. Some computer cases such as the Cooler Master Series (Stackers) were released to support a varying range of motherboard standards such as ATX, BTX, Mini-ATX and so forth, to ease motherboard upgrade without buying a new case; however, all connector and slot standards are identical, including PCI(e) cards, processors, RAM, hard drives, etc.

BTX power supply units can be exchanged with newer ATX12V units, but not with older ATX power supplies that don't have the extra 4-pin 12V connector, which was introduced with the ATX12V standard."


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## n64gk

yeah I have the mirror image one, and have now been trying for about 2 hours to find a case for it, not having much joy


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## goranpaa

The worst thing is, that it seems like BTX cases overall are as small as yours.


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## n64gk

another quick question, from the looks of the graphics card I bought, it looks as if it is a double width card, this would cause no problems other than the fact that theres a tiny built in heatsink (I don't know what its for) and I wonder if I could remove that without issue


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## n64gk

what do you mean?


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## goranpaa

I don't think it's a good idea to remove any heatsink. That sounds like it could be the heatsink for the memory?

For my question. I just wondered if the the length of the card will be a problem?


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## n64gk

if I removed the heatsink and positioned a fan above it, would that do the job?


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## goranpaa

I really don't know, as I have'nt heard of any such modification using a spot cooler fan instead of a heatsink. It could go either way I recon? The risk is that you might fry the memory after a while.

But if  you still decide to try this? Take some isoprophyl alcohol and a piece of a coffee filter and clean the memory chips / chips troughout from the thermal paste after removing the heatsink. Wipe the chips dry afterwards.


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## n64gk

right thanks, I was considering just biting the bullet and replacing the motherboard, being as its pretty cheap

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ASUS-M3A7...aptopMotherboards_CPUs_CA&hash=item51c4bcb700

would this be compatible with my current components? also it looks as if it has a PCIe 16x slot on it, although the buyer does not state, does it? I cant tell


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## goranpaa

Yes, as long as your cpu are socket AMD AM2+ ?
This mobo only support max DDR2 1066 RAM.

If you don't know? Download Cpu Z:


http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/cpu-z.html

Here are the full specification: http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/M3A78VM/specifications/


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## n64gk

my cpu is a socket AM2 not AM2+ this is advertised as AM2? is that not right?

and also does this have a PCIe 16x socket on it, as I need this for my new graphics card


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## goranpaa

Yes, socket AM2 and AM 2+ are compatible.  I checked this out at Asus home for this particular board just  to make sure.
Also this board support the Phenom quad core cpu's And Phenom II + have 1 PCIe 16X graphics slot.


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## goranpaa

Remember when you swap the motherboard that to avoid short cirquits. You need to remove any motherboard peg that wont fit the new boards screw holes. Or if the case have like integrated "bumps" instead for the mobo pegs? Securely  tape over  the ones not beeing used.

The easiest way to find out wich bumps or pegs that should be used? Is to place the motherboard on a A4 or A5 paper. Then outline the mobo with a pen and mark the screw holes. Then, place the paper in the case. Push a hard tipped marker pen thru the screw hole markings and rub som ink off on to the pegs or bumps.

Also, you need to replace the case I/O shield plate for the USB ports etc. for the the one that should come with the Asus mobo. This could be left out though if it's missing or won't fit? In the worst scenario.


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## n64gk

as in the old motherboard pegs from the old case?


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## goranpaa

n64gk said:


> as in the old motherboard pegs from the old case?



Yes, as the pegs comes with the case in question and not with any motherboard. When buying a new case, you will get a bag with quite many of these pegs and screws.


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## n64gk

well I removed the pegs from the case yesterday with a pair of pliers, and the case comes with layout instructions, being as this mobo is micro atx I can just screw the pegs back in and then screw the motherboard into those


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## goranpaa

Oh! I almost forgot to tell you that you need to replace the thermal paste ( and clean away the old one ) for the cpu when you swap the motherboard. And run the computer for while before you try to remove the CPU heatsink / fan combo. Othervice, you risk that the cpu are kinda glued to the heatsink.
And then it might happend that the cpu will be ripped out of the socket when you lift the heatsink. Arctic Cooling Ceramique or Arctic Cooling Silver 5 are good ones. But be careful getting any of it outside the cpu! Especially AC silver 5 as it's electrical conductive. Just place a blob of the thermal paste in the middle on top of the cpu, as big as a smaller pea. The pressure from the heatsink will spread it in a good way for you.

Also, if you check out the cpu on the down side where all these thin, golden contacts are. In one of the corners  they are misssing. The cpu should be placed in the corresponding way into the cpu socket. Make sure that the cpu are all the way down by gently tapping it with a pen or similar before you lock it down with the socket lever and apply the paste. Be very careful not bending any of those golden contacts when you stick the cpu into the socket!


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## goranpaa

n64gk said:


> well I removed the pegs from the case yesterday with a pair of pliers, and the case comes with layout instructions, being as this mobo is micro atx I can just screw the pegs back in and then screw the motherboard into those



Yepp!


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## n64gk

yeah I replaced my thermal paste very recently and still have some left over, but thanks for the advice!!


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## goranpaa

You're welcome. Did you also read what I wrote about migrating the cpu to the new board? I added that just a little while after the thermal paste instruction.


----------

