# Is it illeagal to use someone elses wireless?



## Jiffyman (May 17, 2006)

I have a question. Around my area there are a bunch of wireless networks including mine, and I was wondering since I don't get a very good signal when I'm outside if it's legal to connect to someone elses network.
Any input on this would be very appreciated.


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## magicman (May 17, 2006)

That is very much a grey area at the moment. Whilst it's unlawful to be using someone else's internet without permission, what constitutes 'without permission' isn't very well defined at the moment. Eg. Some people would say that the neighbour is giving you permission simply because they haven't encrypted the network.

This article gives some more info, basically there have been reports of people being arrested for accessing someone else's network, so if I were you I'd not do it.


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## Cile (May 17, 2006)

i read somewhere that it was proved that it technically isnt stealing, and you cant get in trouble for it, but that may be wrong.  im not sure.  you could just politely ask your neighbors if they would allow you to use it.


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## mrjack (May 17, 2006)

Firstly you would have to have permission from whoever is the owner of the Wi-Fi network and from the ISP, that's usually how it is in most cases.


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## Pck21 (May 17, 2006)

I don't know guys I've heard from people aound me that are in the law enforcement field that it is a crime if you do not ask for permission. The people can call the cops if they find that you're "stealing" internet. It's just like cable theft.


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## Jiffyman (May 17, 2006)

What if the device automatically connects to networks around it?


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## computerhakk (May 17, 2006)

Jiffyman said:
			
		

> What if the device automatically connects to networks around it?


Then disable it. 

The terms around it being illegal or not, like said isn't really clear. However, if someone finds that you are using their connection without permission, they can get you in trouble for that. 

It's like any other thing. Would you just take something from someone without them knowing. That's considered stealing.

Stealing = you know what.


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## Christian Darrall (May 17, 2006)

well personally i told everybody who asked me that its illegal, simply because its not really fair on the person paying the bill


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## Apokarteron (May 18, 2006)

random question: Can wireless network reach 200-300 meters?


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## Cile (May 18, 2006)

can someone even detect it if you are using their network?


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## Motoxrdude (May 18, 2006)

Cile said:
			
		

> can someone even detect it if you are using their network?


Nope, but they can tell if you are using all there bandwidth


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## Geoff (May 18, 2006)

Motoxrdude said:
			
		

> Nope, but they can tell if you are using all there bandwidth


Yes they can, they just log onto their router and they can see the IP's of any device thats on their network, wired or wireless.


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## isaacual69 (May 19, 2006)

*hello....*

look its not stealing and it is legal, the only way that it is illegal is if you use the connection in a fraudulant way.  when ;eople buy wi fi networks the company instructs the user to rename and encode their connection.  so i would say go ahead and use it and no you will not be seen


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## QACJared (May 19, 2006)

A wardriving Florida man was arrested and charged with unauthorized access to a computer network, a third-degree felony in the state of Florida. 

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050707-5068.html


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## magicman (May 19, 2006)

isaacual69 said:
			
		

> look its not stealing and it is legal, the only way that it is illegal is if you use the connection in a fraudulant way. when ;eople buy wi fi networks the company instructs the user to rename and encode their connection. so i would say go ahead and use it and no you will not be seen


Suggesting that accessing someone's WiFi network without their permission is legal is just plain wrong. Fraudulent use or not, the owner of the network must give permission before it becomes legal, and it is very easy to see what computers are connecting to it, and even easier to see when there's a drain on bandwidth, so I'm not sure how you can say you can't be seen.


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## elmarcorulz (May 19, 2006)

isaacual69 said:
			
		

> look its not stealing and it is legal, the only way that it is illegal is if you use the connection in a fraudulant way.  when ;eople buy wi fi networks the company instructs the user to rename and encode their connection.  so i would say go ahead and use it and no you will not be seen


Thats like saying if a car's unlocked, its okay to take it.


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## apj101 (May 19, 2006)

> random question: Can wireless network reach 200-300 meters?


With the right equipment it sure can.

At the moment there is not statue for this, so we are replying on case law. Which is a tricky area of the law given that the situation are all different. And the last thing you want to be is a test case 



> and it is very easy to see what computers are connecting to it,


Its not always that easy, escpecially if dchp is turned off. I run an encyrpted network, and use the occational mass ping to check my network. Normally i had no trouble however when using kismet i found 2 unknown mac address on my network. Obviously someone in my area knows what they are doing. I norrowed my ip range, and put up mac filtering... but to be honest if it where me netiher of these would be too hard to bypass so i bet this guy is the same. End result is a built a software switch to bring my network down when not needed. Now obvously that was a case of hacking, but it does show how people can leech on connection undetected.


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## Crazydude185 (May 19, 2006)

I disagree, internet connection isnt physical, its already been paid for and how much is your 70 year old neighber gonna miss their bandwidth at 11 oclock at night? just an example... but im just saying it may be unethical but by no means should it be stealing... his probably using my social security to pay for it anywayz... god knows i wont be seeing it =p


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## QACJared (May 19, 2006)

magicman said:
			
		

> Suggesting that accessing someone's WiFi network without their permission is legal is just plain wrong. Fraudulent use or not, the owner of the network must give permission before it becomes legal, and it is very easy to see what computers are connecting to it, and even easier to see when there's a drain on bandwidth, so I'm not sure how you can say you can't be seen.



Alot of people never log in to or even look at their routers. They just plug them in

thats why there are alot of "Linksys" and "Default" SSIDS


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## Crazydude185 (May 19, 2006)

can you connect to a linksys?


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## QACJared (May 19, 2006)

Im sure i could..they dont have WEP or WPA..but i really dont know. Ive never had the want to since my Dlink router (WPA)with the SSID of "QACJARED ROUTERS OWNS YOU" has great singal in my house and back yard. So my computer conects to it first.


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## Jiffyman (May 19, 2006)

I believe that if they don't have WPA OR WEP enabled then it shouldn't really matter cause obviously they don't know so they don't care, but if encryption is enabled and you crack it then you should mos definetly go to jail.


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## cell4me (May 20, 2006)

Jiffyman said:
			
		

> I believe that if they don't have WPA OR WEP enabled then it shouldn't really matter cause obviously they don't know so they don't care, but if encryption is enabled and you crack it then you should mos definetly go to jail.


Ditto: This falls under some kind of FCC FTA act!  FTA = Free to air, basically if it is transmitted through airwave you have the right to recieve it like local television stations, police broadcast, local radio stations and if you have a scanner you can listen to cellphone and cordless telephone calls!

How ever once it is encrypted and you have to break that encryption in order to use, listen or view you are breaking the law!

Wardriving is not illegal but when you "break into a network" that is!


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## Christian Darrall (May 24, 2006)

> look its not stealing and it is legal,


 nope i still disagree,

its like saying yea the car was open but i just took it to see how it drives without permission.

the guy whos car it is will report you without questions asked


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## Motoxrdude (May 24, 2006)

Christian Darrall said:
			
		

> nope i still disagree,
> 
> its like saying yea the car was open but i just took it to see how it drives without permission.
> 
> the guy whos car it is will report you without questions asked


Maybe its not right, but its not against the law.(unless encrypted)


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## jimmymac (May 24, 2006)

in the u.k. it will be covered by ammendments to the misuse of computers act 1990. 

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1990/Ukpga_19900018_en_1.htm

section 17

 he does not have consent to access by him of the kind in question to the program or data from any person who is so entitled.

 router firmware is a program under UK law

thus without consent it is illegal.

anyone wanna reconsider


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## Christian Darrall (May 24, 2006)

errm nope as i wud neva get wireless


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## Motoxrdude (May 24, 2006)

Nope! We all dont live in the UK!


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## jimmymac (May 24, 2006)

so you dont think theres an almost identical charter covering the misuse of computers within the U.S.

nah maybe they didnt think it was worth it :S


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## 4W4K3 (May 24, 2006)

You can typically connect to any wireless network your PC recognizes, brand of router shouldn't matter.

If I find people on my network I do something about it. It's my service, my money, and my internet, there's no questions about it.

You can dance around definitions of words and technicalities, but the truth of the matter is you can get in trouble for it if the person you are STEALING from cares enough to do something about it. It's very similiar to stealing someone's cable line, or leeching off there electricity or water. It's a service they pay for, whether they are using it at the time or not.


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## Christian Darrall (May 24, 2006)

if anythink does happen use the excuse, "yea cop, i aint good with computers i just turned my pc on and all i new i had the internet" dads excuse


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## Motoxrdude (May 24, 2006)

Heh, i wouldnt see why its illegal. Its not stealing really, they arent losing anything, except bandwidth. If they cared so much, why not encrypted it?

I dont have my wifi encrypted and i dont mind people using mine, just not sucking up all my bandwidth.


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## Christian Darrall (May 24, 2006)

hehe but thats what thell do, thell use it for the same reason you use it for, or maybe even movie downloads,


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## Motoxrdude (May 24, 2006)

I just look at internet sites and game with my internet.... And its not like they are paying extra for you using there internet...


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## jimmymac (May 24, 2006)

but it is stealing, its a provided service that is paid for and often contractually so. It may not be encrypted but thats not the issue. By using it your are knowlingly taking something that is not yours. 

The firmware within the router in question becomes the property of the person who is paying for said internet. Using that firmware is thus illegal to anyone else who does not have permission. Data protection and computer use is very broad in its definitions. The firmware and router would be considered as a computer component in its own right. In the eyes of the law it would be as criminal as using the internet to log onto someone elses computer and browse their system


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## Motoxrdude (May 24, 2006)

jimmymac said:
			
		

> but it is stealing, its a provided service that is paid for and often contractually so. It may not be encrypted but thats not the issue. By using it your are knowlingly taking something that is not yours.
> 
> The firmware within the router in question becomes the property of the person who is paying for said internet. Using that firmware is thus illegal to anyone else who does not have permission. Data protection and computer use is very broad in its definitions. The firmware and router would be considered as a computer component in its own right. In the eyes of the law it would be as criminal as using the internet to log onto someone elses computer and browse their system


We are talking about using someones internet, not browsing there files....


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## 4W4K3 (May 24, 2006)

If you don't care, then there's no problem. It's like if a store owner would let someone steal the merchandise inside (he'd be stupid) but it wouldn't be illegal if the store owner said it was OK.

Encryption is an option, it still doesn't mean you can use it. Just liek the car example. Locking your doors is an OPTION, just because they are unlocked it doesn't mean you can legally open the door and take the car. The owner is stupid for not locking the doors, but that doesn't change anything.


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## Motoxrdude (May 24, 2006)

4W4K3 said:
			
		

> If you don't care, then there's no problem. It's like if a store owner would let someone steal the merchandise inside (he'd be stupid) but it wouldn't be illegal if the store owner said it was OK.


But the thing i am talking about is, you arent taking anything away from the person...


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## jimmymac (May 24, 2006)

Motoxrdude said:
			
		

> We are talking about using someones internet, not browsing there files....




your missing the point. By using their internet what route are you taking to get onto said internet.

ITs going to go from your wireless adaptor to......THE ROUTER...this is where the issue lies. The router and its firmware belong to the person who is paying for the internet.

Simply browsing the internet is not the issue..its using that router and its firmware to do it


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## jimmymac (May 24, 2006)

Motoxrdude said:
			
		

> But the thing i am talking about is, you arent taking anything away from the person...




you are taking away though. What happens if two people in your house are using the internet and both are downloading.....the connection gets shared between the two, thus slowing down the download speed of them both. By using their internet you are taking away part of their speed which they have paid for.


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## Motoxrdude (May 24, 2006)

Illegal: To take (the property of another) without right or permission.

You aren't taking any property....


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## Sacrinyellow5 (May 25, 2006)

Is there a way to check where a wi-fi connection is coming from?

There's a couple wireless connections in our apartment complex, but I think one might be set up for people to use in the complex, how could I check to make sure?


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## jimmymac (May 25, 2006)

you really need to study law a lot more closely. Illegal use can be covered in the same way. Illegal use of an item witout right or permission. As i said, the law is a very broad term and I can guarantee you that IF someone decided to prosecute for this issue then there would be a case to answer.

You dont have to "take" it for it to be illegal, simply using it without permission can be enough. Which is what you would be doing


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## Motoxrdude (May 25, 2006)

Well, when i dont have anything plugged into my tv, i get channel 50 over the air, so when i whatched that channel, would that be illegal since i never asked for permission?


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## 4W4K3 (May 25, 2006)

Motoxrdude said:
			
		

> Illegal: To take (the property of another) without right or permission.
> 
> You aren't taking any property....



Yes you are. Property doesn't have to be something you can touch and feel. You are infringing on a contract between that individual and there ISP without any permission. Therefore, you are stealing that service from that person.
It's very similiar to infringing on someone's legal rights. You cant see or touch them, but you can certainly overstep your own rights and infringe on theirs.


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## jimmymac (May 25, 2006)

in essence yes it could be, but it would never be prosecuted as you did not actively go and seek said channel out. With the internet issue you have purposely sought to use that in the knowledge that it is not something that you have paid for or own and thus can be prosecuted for


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## Motoxrdude (May 25, 2006)

With the TV you do seek after the channel too, how else would you find it? I think whatching something broadcasted threw the air unecrypted is alright to use, i mean, if they didnt want you using it, why not encrypt?


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## 4W4K3 (May 25, 2006)

Motoxrdude said:
			
		

> Well, when i dont have anything plugged into my tv, i get channel 50 over the air, so when i whatched that channel, would that be illegal since i never asked for permission?



That's free, the service provider which you are using allows anyone to get those channels. Just like with my TV antenna I can get about 20 channels absolutely free without paying anything. Those are local channels which require no kind of contract to watch, they are provided for anyone who can receive them.

And I'm not sure if this applies to this topic. But recently "ignorance of the law" is no longer an excuse. So simply denying you knew what you were doing was illegal, won't change anything. Again, this may not apply to this topic...but it's the law on the streets right now as of late.


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## Christian Darrall (May 25, 2006)

> Encryption is an option


 if you was a total computer phyco who could override the encryption then thats illegal, just for those who are unsure, because at least the owner of the internet has given himself some sort of shield.


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## Motoxrdude (May 25, 2006)

Christian Darrall said:
			
		

> if you was a total computer phyco who could override the encryption then thats illegal, just for those who are unsure, because at least the owner of the internet has given himself some sort of shield.


Thats edzactly what i am trying to get at.


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## jimmymac (May 25, 2006)

encrypted or not is not an issue, as mentioned previously saying that it wasnt encrypted so its ok is just ignorance of the law and would not hold up in any court.

Due to the simple fact that not everyone is as computer literate as some and thus may not realise how to encrypt there system no matter how simple it might seem. 

At the end of the day you are using a service that someone else is paying for, doesnt matter if its simple to get hold of or difficult, its illegal.

I could use your electricity to your house very easily, simply attach the right cables and your paying for my electricity, can i get away with it because you didnt put ample protection over those cables?


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## Motoxrdude (May 25, 2006)

Dude, you arent getting what i am saying. I am saying that if you use someone else's wifi, they are not paying more. And as i someone mentrioned before, something broadcasted over the air(that is not encrypted) is not illegal to use.


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## magicman (May 25, 2006)

I think it's interesting how this debate is continuing back and forth. The fact of the matter is, people have been arrested for using other people's unencrypted wireless networks. If there was nothing illegal about that, then there'd be no grounds for the arrests, regardless of how many of those arrests resulted in prossecutions.


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## 4W4K3 (May 25, 2006)

magicman said:
			
		

> I think it's interesting how this debate is continuing back and forth. The fact of the matter is, people have been arrested for using other people's unencrypted wireless networks. If there was nothing illegal about that, then there'd be no grounds for the arrests, regardless of how many of those arrests resulted in prossecutions.



Exactly. Why can't people just accept it for what it is. If there is ANY question of the matter, do the safe thing and assume it's illegal. If you assume it's legal, you can end up behind bars. This isn't a matter of opinion, look at the facts, people end up losing to the law.

And just because it's broadcasted over the air doesn't make it free. It's a payed service for those who pay for it and AGREE to the contract. If you're using it without the permission of the provider, it's illegal. If you don't have your own contract, it's illegal. If it's not encrypted, it's still illegal. Ask ANY ISP, they will tell you it's illegal and they report people for it. If that's not enough proof for you, then you're an idiot and deserve to be prosecuted if you're dumb enough to leech someone's internet.


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## Christian Darrall (May 25, 2006)

well all im gonna say is enjoy this thread, as youve gone in a complete circle,hehe.


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## 4W4K3 (May 25, 2006)

Nothing wrong with restating points to make a final point lol. I'd be interesting in hearing actual cases/stories where this was discussed though, just to see the main arguments of both sides.


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## Christian Darrall (May 25, 2006)

ok i still agree with illegal, you should have made a toll


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## jimmymac (May 25, 2006)

Motoxrdude said:
			
		

> Dude, you arent getting what i am saying. I am saying that if you use someone else's wifi, they are not paying more. And as i someone mentrioned before, something broadcasted over the air(that is not encrypted) is not illegal to use.




ahh so for it to be illegal your saying that they would have to be paying more for your unauthorised usage than they would normally.

Give me a break lad, educate yourself on the legal system a bit more and see that by taking a service provided to someone else without authorisation is ILLEGAL!!!!

WAter, Electriciy, Gas, tap into any of those supplies to a home and use them its illegal.....why? because you are stealing a supply of someone elses, whether it costs them more or not.

Tap into someone elses Cable TV line, is that illegal? are they paying more cos your using it? Exactly the same situation with Broadband.

Im giving you realistic situations, details of how the legal system would be able to prosecute given the situation.. Your throwing rubbish ideas in return.

Its illegal....thats a fact, dont believe me? do some research!




			
				4W4K3 said:
			
		

> Exactly. Why can't people just accept it for what it is. If there is ANY question of the matter, do the safe thing and assume it's illegal. If you assume it's legal, you can end up behind bars. This isn't a matter of opinion, look at the facts, people end up losing to the law.
> 
> And just because it's broadcasted over the air doesn't make it free. It's a payed service for those who pay for it and AGREE to the contract. If you're using it without the permission of the provider, it's illegal. If you don't have your own contract, it's illegal. If it's not encrypted, it's still illegal. Ask ANY ISP, they will tell you it's illegal and they report people for it. If that's not enough proof for you, then you're an idiot and deserve to be prosecuted if you're dumb enough to leech someone's internet.




BINGO!!!!!


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## atomic (May 25, 2006)

Here is just one of many news reports on the matter.


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## jimmymac (May 25, 2006)

sooo, still thinking its legal anyone?


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## cell4me (May 25, 2006)

jimmymac said:
			
		

> WAter, Electriciy, Gas, tap into any of those supplies to a home and use them its illegal.....why? because you are stealing a supply of someone elses, whether it costs them more or not.
> 
> Tap into someone elses Cable TV line, is that illegal? are they paying more cos your using it? Exactly the same situation with Broadband.


You are missing the point here and you need to do some research yourself, if you tap into someones cable yes that is stealing because you have to make a physical connection! If you are recieving free to air signals that is not encrypted it is not against the law because someone is broadcasting that signal and I have every right according to the FCC to recieve that signal even if it is encrypted but when you break that encryption then it is stealing because thats what the encryption is for is to keep people out. I can see the argument where people think you are steeling a service but the fact is if you broadcast your internet over a non encrypted wifi you are giving your service away permission or not, just like an internet cafe! For who ever posted that people have went to jail for using someones unencrypted wifi prove it, post a link to an article that says someone was arrested for using a (NONENCRYPTED NETWORK) bet you cant find one!


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## magicman (May 25, 2006)

cell4me said:
			
		

> For who ever posted that people have went to jail for using someones unencrypted wifi prove it, post a link to an article that says someone was arrested for using a (NONENCRYPTED NETWORK) bet you cant find one!


http://money.cnn.com/2005/07/07/technology/personaltech/wireless_arrest


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## Geoff (May 25, 2006)

jimmymac said:
			
		

> WAter, Electriciy, Gas, tap into any of those supplies to a home and use them its illegal.....why? because you are stealing a supply of someone elses.


True, but unlike all of those, it doesnt cost the owner more if someone else uses it.  If someone is using your electricity ot water, it costs them money.  If you use someone elses internet, it doesnt cost them anything more, and if your just browsing the web it doesnt even slow them down.


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## elmarcorulz (May 25, 2006)

[-0MEGA-] said:
			
		

> True, but unlike all of those, it doesnt cost the owner more if someone else uses it.  If someone is using your electricity ot water, it costs them money.  If you use someone elses internet, it doesnt cost them anything more, and if your just browsing the web it doesnt even slow them down.


Thats doesnt make a difference. If you're using someone elses service without their permission, then its stealing.


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## Geoff (May 26, 2006)

elmarcorulz said:
			
		

> Thats doesnt make a difference. If you're using someone elses service without their permission, then its stealing.


I didnt mean to say that it wasnt stealing, im just saying that it's different than using someone else electricity.


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## cell4me (May 26, 2006)

magicman said:
			
		

> http://money.cnn.com/2005/07/07/technology/personaltech/wireless_arrest




Dinon also stated that he later observed foreign icons on his home computer screen!


He broke into his computer that is different!


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## elmarcorulz (May 26, 2006)

Read Part 2; the legality and ethics bit. Ill quote the main bit.


> In other words, 1) don't examine the contents of a network; 2) don't add, delete, or change anything on the network, and 3) don't even use the network's Internet connection for Web surfing, email, chat, FTP, or anything else. *Somebody else paid for the bandwidth, and if you don't have permission to use it, you're stealing it*


Even though we're not on about Wardriving, the bold text still stands.


EDIT: I pulled the link because it says on there how to get into networks.


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## cell4me (May 26, 2006)

The law on it is still pretty fuzzy and any Court Appointed Attorney could get you off on one of many technicalities!
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/08/technology/personaltech/internet_piracy/index.htm?cnn=yes


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## 4W4K3 (May 26, 2006)

Please, anyone who thinks that anyone's unencrypted internet is free to the public, go talk to your ISP. Or any ISP that is in question. You'll get your answer straight from the horses mouth, they are the ones who make the rules. "The Law" simply enforces and backs up the rules and guidelines they enforce in there customer agreement, so they are the ones to ask. You will get the same answer from all of them...it is against their policies and they CAN press charges against you if it's a big enough deal to them. "CAN" keyword, I would wager more than likely they just slap your hand and tell you to stop if they can get ahold of you.


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## jimmymac (May 26, 2006)

[-0MEGA-] said:
			
		

> I didnt mean to say that it wasnt stealing, im just saying that it's different than using someone else electricity.




oh come on its called an analogy, i was trying to put at least some tangible point that relates to the fact that people can and have been prosectued for using the wi-fi.

Maybe the cable point worked a little better huh?


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## mikekelly (May 26, 2006)

Motoxrdude said:
			
		

> Dude, you arent getting what i am saying. I am saying that if you use someone else's wifi, they are not paying more. And as i someone mentrioned before, something broadcasted over the air(that is not encrypted) is not illegal to use.


 
okay, say you have a point for one second, you think its not a problem to use there connection whilst they are not online and using it. 

If this is true then surely you would at least tell the people what you were doing wouldnt you? I mean, you dont have anything to hide and would be totally up front with them. 

Then on them grounds with there permission its not stealing. 

Otherwise.....you a big fat THIEF!!

j/k about the big fat thing. 

Mike


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