# Should I go Mac?



## BettinaFJ

Hey everyone! 
I have an old HP Paviliion laptop which is practically falling apart, and I need a replacement ASAP. 
I just cannot seem to make up my mind on whether I should stick with a laptop that uses Windows or go for a MacBook instead? 
I use a couple of photo editing tools: Photoshop, Lightroom, Photomax Pro and of course EOS Utility to transfer the photos from my camera (an EOS 400D) What are your experiences with MacBooks when it comes to photo editing? 
And with MacBooks in general? 

Cheers,

B


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## tremmor

don't have a problem with mac's. if i was a professional and doing say photo editing then yes, i would have a mac.  for general use and full compatibility i use what everybody is using. P4 works fine. most people here stay with the intel standard and works just fine.


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## MyCattMaxx

Once you go Mac you never go back... lol
Seriously like tremmor said, But I will add that there is nothing wrong with AMD either.
Depending on what you use a comp for a PC has more apps, games, etc for it.
If you like to game you will find more games made for a PC than a Mac.


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## jarlmaster47

macs are for editing and music stuff. pc's are for everything else. macs are overpriced and have generally shitty parts in them for a ridiculous price


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## CrayonMuncher

macs are good if you got the money to spend but i agree wih tremmor unless your using it for professional purposes you will probably want to stick with intel or amd
if you have a budget to work from im sure we can help find you a good laptop


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## Geoff

jarlmaster47 said:


> *PC's* are for editing and music stuff. *Mac's* are for everything else. *PC's* have generally shitty parts in them for a ridiculous price


Edited.



> macs are good if you got the money to spend but i agree wih tremmor unless your using it for professional purposes you will probably want to stick with intel or amd
> if you have a budget to work from im sure we can help find you a good laptop


Mac's use Intel Core 2 Duo's, i5's, and i7's.


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## CrayonMuncher

im aware of that they switched quite a while back from powerpc
 i was impling the use of a pc running windows maybe i should have been more specific


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## Jet

It's really come to the point in time that both Mac and PC can run the programs you need. However, I will never buy a PC laptop because of how much attention Apple spends on build quality. I've never used a touchpad that's half as good as my Macbook Pro's.


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## CrayonMuncher

good point the touch pad is definatly intuative, it would be nice to have a simalar company paying that much attention to design and detail on a pc then there would be some more serious competition


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## jarlmaster47

[-0MEGA-];1464493 said:
			
		

> Edited.
> 
> 
> Mac's use Intel Core 2 Duo's, i5's, and i7's.



yeh but they charge you A LOT more for them. most macs don't offer the i7. I don't appreciate how you edited my post. I meant what I said. Macs have krappy ram too. macs suck!


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## Geoff

innercx said:


> im aware of that they switched quite a while back from powerpc
> i was impling the use of a pc running windows maybe i should have been more specific


Well, considering how you never mentioned Windows, then yes, you should have rephrased it.



jarlmaster47 said:


> yeh but they charge you A LOT more for them. most macs don't offer the i7. I don't appreciate how you edited my post. I meant what I said. Macs have krappy ram too. macs suck!


Mac's warrant the higher price because of the little things that makes them great.  Much better quality displays (if you want to talk about poor quality parts, look at almost any other laptop out there), more durable chassis, much longer batteries (7-10 hours), and more.  Sure spec for spec Windows machines are cheaper, but not by much.


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## speedyink

Honestly for photo editing Mac or PC will both work great for it.


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## Geoff

You really don't appreciate what Mac's have to offer until you've used them for a while, I prefer them over Windows except for gaming.


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## jarlmaster47

I dont like mac os. its so counter-intuitive! windows or linux (any version too). mac os should stop while its behind


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## The_Other_One

My mother's a teacher and they loan out Macbooks to all the employees.  Within the first year of having hers, her motherboard died, webcam worked intermittently, and battery quit holding any charge.  This was a brand new Macbook.  The next year, the DVD-RW would jam up when inserting disks.

I know someone else; a friend of a friend, who got a macbook.  Apparently a key or two just quit working on the keyboard.  I'm thinking some other things happened, but I know she's said she now wishes she'd gone with some other brand.

Another friend of a friend got a macbook more recently.  She said her screen now looks like it has water behind it, but she know's it's never been exposed to water.

Needless to say, I'm not too keen on the idea of Macintosh.  On top of all this, out of warranty work is exceptionally expensive and they are quite difficult to work on.


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## jarlmaster47

The_Other_One said:


> My mother's a teacher and they loan out Macbooks to all the employees.  Within the first year of having hers, her motherboard died, webcam worked intermittently, and battery quit holding any charge.  This was a brand new Macbook.  The next year, the DVD-RW would jam up when inserting disks.
> 
> I know someone else; a friend of a friend, who got a macbook.  Apparently a key or two just quit working on the keyboard.  I'm thinking some other things happened, but I know she's said she now wishes she'd gone with some other brand.
> 
> Another friend of a friend got a macbook more recently.  She said her screen now looks like it has water behind it, but she know's it's never been exposed to water.
> 
> Needless to say, I'm not too keen on the idea of Macintosh.  On top of all this, out of warranty work is exceptionally expensive and they are quite difficult to work on.



exactly! see? macs suck. HARD


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## FairDoos

[-0MEGA-];1464493 said:
			
		

> Edited.



I fail to see how that edit is true? PC has more functions than a Mac.

My opinion Macs are overpriced pieces of fasion hardware the only useful thing i have found to come from a Mac is its editing capabilities such as Image, Video and music editing.

Use a PC for everything else and there cheaper. I could go on but knowing this it would turn into a flame war..


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## JlCollins005

Really its all up to you i myself think macs are overpriced, yes they are great for video and photo editing but my pc works great for it to. For the price of a macbook you can get a pretty nice laptop with good specs that should cater to every one of your needs.

Not to mention like the_other said i have seen more macbooks fail than pc laptops and laptops are prolly about half the cost to fix.


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## diduknowthat

Where's tlarkin, there's so much misinformation and fan-boyism being thrown around in this thread it's not even funny.


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## Drenlin

^ He has some fanboyism himself, you know. Last time I posted an Asus G-series to demonstrate the price/performance difference between them, his arguments against it were so ridiculous and unfounded that I just gave up on the thread...


Macbooks are damned expensive for the hardware you get, IMO, but they are among the best on the market for battery life/performance, and their screens are great for photo editing once you calibrate them properly. Apple is rated a close #4 for reliability, behind Asus, Toshiba, and Sony, so they're pretty good there.


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## Ethan3.14159

Drenlin said:


> ^ He has some fanboyism himself, you know. Last time I posted an Asus G-series to demonstrate the price/performance difference between them, his arguments against it were so ridiculous and unfounded that I just gave up on the thread...
> 
> 
> Macbooks are damned expensive for the hardware you get, IMO, but they are among the best on the market for battery life/performance, and their screens are great for photo editing once you calibrate them properly. Apple is rated a close #4 for reliability, behind Asus, Toshiba, and Sony, so they're pretty good there.


He may or may not be a fanboy, but at least he knows what he's talking about. Which is more than can be said for most of the people in this thread.

You can't really compare any Windows based laptop to a Macbook Pro. None of them have IPS LED screens or a glass multitouch trackpad. (a lot of really lame attempts at multitouch, but almost all PC laptop trackpads are far too small) Now you're seeing all of these laptops pop up with aluminum chassis and their version of multitouch. Take the 13" HP Envy. It's not even unibody, and costs more than a 13" Macbook Pro, and all you get is a shitty ULV Core 2 and lesser hardware than a Macbook Pro. 

It's not just about the hardware, it's how well that hardware is matched for the software. And it's a well known fact that Mac OS X manages resources far better than Windows. So, when your Asus laptop with higher specs has slowed to grinding halt over 4 or 5 years from new releases of Windows and the infamous "Windows Rot" the Macbook Pro with lower spec will still march on just as fast as the day it was bought for another 4 years. 

Another thing is design. The Macbook Pro is a very thin laptop, yet still sports an 8 cell battery. Yet many PC laptops are almost 2x as thick with a 6 cell battery. How? Apple redesigned the actual battery cells and instead of a cylindrical shape cell they have a flat, space saving cell. It's the little things like the battery design, backlit keyboard that's activated depending on how dark the room is, bluetooth, firewire 800, aluminum unibody chassis, etc etc... that really really add up to pretty much the best notebook lineup on the market.


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## iGeekOFComedy

*EVERYONE STOP*, the truth is mac is more overpriced for the hardware so go for a PC if you need the latest or greatest because if you do your wallet will stay open as technology grows everyday, Apple choices specific hard ware as they build codes (VERY stable) Drivers for each piece of hardware and make sure theres no conflicting to stop crashing (I'm a fan that will open my wallet at anything with a apple logo) but i pay because it's easier, the ram is kengisinton ram not apple so you think kengisinton is crappy, The hard drives are western digital, they are very good in my opinion, never crash, they have the most advanced intergrated graphics on the new 13" the 320m, apple didn't use core i5 or i7 because if they did it would require the intel HD which would not make it PRO and on a 13" Book i don't see the M11x alienware use i5/i7. Back to the easiness, one big thing is the dock, on the pc counterpart you need rocket dock but then you don't have stacks which I use all the time, trust me it's a lot easier than the start menu because you see huge icons and if you get the entire adobe cs5 suite all those big icons you know the difference between AI PS AE PR etc. Plus i love being able to play, music, watch videos and look at photos without opening any applications like, preview, itunes or quicktime player, you press on the item of choice and hit space. Also you can even read .txt files , .docs .pdf and iwork files without opening the applications required like word,preview etc. AGAIN ease of use and thats the base operating system, when you use aperture for photos or final cut for video editing it's so easy they can add lots of advanced features where on the pc counterpart avid or corel video studio 11 it would require to hide the mid level features in the places advanced features should be place, i never even figured out how to change the aspect ration of/or cropping clips in sony vegas and adding layers etc, can someone link me a video


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## diduknowthat

Drenlin said:


> ^ He has some fanboyism himself, you know.



yes, but he does a good job balancing out all the people who hate apple for no reason here.


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## Geoff

The_Other_One said:


> My mother's a teacher and they loan out Macbooks to all the employees.  Within the first year of having hers, her motherboard died, webcam worked intermittently, and battery quit holding any charge.  This was a brand new Macbook.  The next year, the DVD-RW would jam up when inserting disks.
> 
> I know someone else; a friend of a friend, who got a macbook.  Apparently a key or two just quit working on the keyboard.  I'm thinking some other things happened, but I know she's said she now wishes she'd gone with some other brand.
> 
> Another friend of a friend got a macbook more recently.  She said her screen now looks like it has water behind it, but she know's it's never been exposed to water.
> 
> Needless to say, I'm not too keen on the idea of Macintosh.  On top of all this, out of warranty work is exceptionally expensive and they are quite difficult to work on.


I have to deal with hundreds of Mac's at the schools I work at, and while what you stated have occurred on a few, it's very easy to have it fixed/replaced under warranty, they usually have it back to me in 2-3 days from when I ship it out.  Sounds like you just got a bad one, which happens in every industry.



FairDoos said:


> I fail to see how that edit is true? PC has more functions than a Mac.
> 
> My opinion Macs are overpriced pieces of fasion hardware the only useful thing i have found to come from a Mac is its editing capabilities such as Image, Video and music editing.
> 
> Use a PC for everything else and there cheaper. I could go on but knowing this it would turn into a flame war..


I'm not comparing Mac's to custom computers that you and I build, I'm referring mainly to MacBook's in relation to Toshiba, Dell, HP, and other pre-built laptops.  I have an Asus gaming laptop and while it has high specs and does pretty well in gaming, I never use it for anything else.  Once you get to know Mac's you appreciate their layout and features such as multitouch, large trackpad, and are smaller and lighter then their Windows counterparts.


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## tlarkin

jarlmaster47 said:


> macs are for editing and music stuff. pc's are for everything else. macs are overpriced and have generally shitty parts in them for a ridiculous price



and...



> exactly! see? macs suck. HARD



Sorry, but you are a retard.  Please leave the thread or actually provide facts to back up any ridiculous claim you are about to make.



> Macbooks are damned expensive for the hardware you get, IMO, but they are among the best on the market for battery life/performance, and their screens are great for photo editing once you calibrate them properly. Apple is rated a close #4 for reliability, behind Asus, Toshiba, and Sony, so they're pretty good there.



Again, you are so wrong.  Build me a Laptop that is spec for spec, feature for feature better or comparable to the Macbooks and Macbook Pros and prove to me it is cheaper.   Don't forget to add in every spec, including IPS screens and also every feature that a Mac has out of the box.  You won't be able to do it.



> Where's tlarkin, there's so much misinformation and fan-boyism being thrown around in this thread it's not even funny.



It's cool bro, I always end up on the Mac threads....


To the OP:

Yes!  Buy a Mac!  They are fantastic machines.  I have been in IT for a decade, and I have used, serviced, maintained and repaired and owned, ever single manufacturer of laptop there is.  I can tell you hands down, my Macbook Pro is the best laptop I have ever owned.  

If you have any specific questions let me know, and ignore the other people on this thread who have touched a Mac twice in their entire life.  I have been using Windows since I was like 9 (back when it was DOS) and Linux and Macs since I was a teenager.  I have many more years experience and I work with computers professionally.  So my opinions are heavily biased, to that of a power user, not your average user.


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## tlarkin

Drenlin said:


> ^ He has some fanboyism himself, you know. Last time I posted an Asus G-series to demonstrate the price/performance difference between them, his arguments against it were so ridiculous and unfounded that I just gave up on the thread...



*sigh* I am not a fanboy, I use FACTS to back my claims.  You cannot find a laptop that compares.  You don't even read into specs, features, and most importantly overall cost of ownership.

You just lost the debate, quit being all butt-hurt by it.

I have said many times that both Asus and Lenovo make some bad ass PC laptops.  The problem is, you can't find me something that is actually comparable.  Size, weight, and battery life are HUGE factors when spec'ing a laptop.


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## JlCollins005

meh, Tlarkin i do think your a fanboy dont get me wrong you alwas have facts but you always support mac.

its all personal preference.

As i said to the op we could easily show you a laptop with great specs that would cater to your needs and be cheaper than a macbook


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## tlarkin

JlCollins005 said:


> meh, Tlarkin i do think your a fanboy dont get me wrong you alwas have facts but you always support mac.
> 
> its all personal preference.
> 
> As i said to the op we could easily show you a laptop with great specs that would cater to your needs and be cheaper than a macbook



If I were a fanboy I would use 100% mac.  At home I have 3 custom built PCs running things for me, and only 1 of them runs Windows.  I am also an advocate of Linux and Unix on their own.  If anything you can say that I am not a fanboy of Windows, but a fan of everything else.  

I like PCs a lot, but after Vista and Windows 7, I just really dislike Microsoft's direction.

Also, I have to defend Macintosh more than I can criticize them on this forum, because people don't use facts in their claim against Apple.  So, your perception is that I am a fanboy, but trust me, when I go post over at the Mac specific forums (which I have been a long time member of) I call people on their PC bashing all the time.

If you actually knew me, you would know that I am not a fanboy.  Since so much misinformation goes on here I have to defend Macs tooth and nail against ridiculous and frivolous claims.  Now, if people actually debated properly and used facts then I would not have to always be on the defense of the Mac.

Hopefully you understand what I am trying to say.


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## JlCollins005

i understand what you are saying.. like i said it all falls back to personal preference.

whats wrong with windows 7 i have liked it so far vista did suck but 7 is fast with great looks. 

i find macs to be a pain in the ass work on and parts for them are pretty expensive
and i could never really get used to mac os


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## tlarkin

JlCollins005 said:


> i understand what you are saying.. like i said it all falls back to personal preference.
> 
> whats wrong with windows 7 i have liked it so far vista did suck but 7 is fast with great looks.
> 
> i find macs to be a pain in the ass work on and parts for them are pretty expensive
> and i could never really get used to mac os



my problems with Windows vista/7:

1)  UAC
2)  Registry - still a single point of failure
3)  ungodly amount of RAM usage - no other OS needs or eats up that much RAM
4)  revamped network security policies in SMB (which aren't needed) broke almost all open source networking with non windows platforms.  NTLMv2 is a huge pain in the ass, and SMB went from sending a few packets per an authentication session to thousands of packets, why?  IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON"T FIX IT!  Sorry for caps
5)  Huge flaws in memory protection and memory dumping.  In both 7 and Vista.  If I let my torrent client build up and seed over 15 to 20 items at once it is a huge memory leak.  Firefox, loves to eat up over a gig of RAM sometimes.  Sure, this could be partly third party's fault, however I run the same apps in Linux and in OS X and they don't have the memory leak issues.
6)  DRM, Windows is filled with DRM and WGA is also ultra damn annoying.  Why can't windows play a freaking DVD out of the box with WMP?  You still gotta download Codecs, and this is 2010 damn-it!
7)  last and my main reason I don't like Window is the cost.  I just rebuilt my HTPC and I wasn't about to fork over $150 for an OS.  That is just dumb.  So I loaded Linux.

I agree it is a personal preference, but the kids who say, "Macs are a rip off," are the ones that don't use facts to debate the cost versus the value of a Mac computer.  If they were to simply say, I don't like it, well you can't argue with that.  That is personal preference.


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## iGeekOFComedy

I think people just have to try Mac. Not just for 10 mins but for at least 2 hours or better yet 1 - 3 days and don't use PC inbetween each time you use a Mac then when you come back to the forum / PC your opinion will deff be different


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## tlarkin

iGeekOFComedy said:


> I think people just have to try Mac. Not just for 10 mins but for at least 2 hours or better yet 1 - 3 days and don't use PC inbetween each time you use a Mac then when you come back to the forum / PC your opinion will deff be different



Sorry it took me about 2 years of using OS X 10.1 and 10.2 to really fully understand exactly how OS X worked.  

Your average user needs to really spend at least 6months to a year to get 100% comfy with how everything works and operates.  I would say at least 6 months.


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## CrayonMuncher

i agree that around 6 months would be adequte time to get comfy with the ui and to understand better how it works
but to start off with, the first time you touch a mac it really isnt that hard to understand the basics, first time i played around with a mac withing 5 mins i was installling various drivers and what have you so i find it hard to understand how someone can say they cant get used to it.
my main thing i love about osx is the way you feel that as a user you have control and you'r almost appreciated by the os and the way it handles the tasks you set it to do, in very slick and well cool way
i believe in a way apple cared much more about the end user expierence than microsoft did for many years, however i find the interface slightly better in vista and much improved in 7.

as i said before macs are good if you have the money to spend and the software works exceptionally well with the hardware and because of the design it is in many ways superior to windows, but the lack of compatibilty i would find frustrating, but (to the op) if you have the money to spend and are of a slightly technical mind then this compatibilty problem can be over come but using boot camp to run windows on the mac.

i would personally still buy a windows computer as technically i could get a model with great specs for the same price and shy away from apple mainly for their corporate policies and the fact that i really dont like steve jobs, these things affect my decisions

and im not fussed about reloading the os as i dablle in using various linux distros and do this quite a lot, the fact the apple has (to my knowledge) refused to adopt blu ray i find annoying i dont want to pay that much for a laptop and i cant even use it as a blu ray player for a hdtv, and this constant battle he has with full flash support, fair enough to be behind html 5 but for the mean time it would be nice to have full flash support

and to iGeekOFComedy

apple has adopted the intel i5 and i7 and is using intel hd in the macbook pro models with the larger screen i assume you were aware of that

regardless of if tlarkin is a fanboy or not he has raised very valid points for every subject he has been questioned on so the fact of fanboyinsm really is irrellevent to me, but i do agree it is down to personal choice


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## tlarkin

Jobs just wrote an open letter to Adobe on Flash

http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/

Also, what exactly is not compatible with your mac?  There are a few things that don't run on a Mac but if you absolutely needed them you could run virtual machines, cross over or dual boot.


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## CrayonMuncher

yeah im aware of that letter and i understand his points but until html 5 kicks off big time it would be good to have the support

i mainly talk about games for compatibilty

i have no mac btw i use my friends mac pro and other firends macbooks quite alot and since i dont own one so to take a game to a friends and it wont work plus any other compatibilty you might run into, i find it a bit much to run a dual boot or virtual machine to overcome this at a friends house

i also remember i had to overcome so kind of issue when burning a disc in windows to ensure compatibilty with a mac, im not sure if it was ever an actual issue but i had to ensure it was compatible


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## tlarkin

innercx said:


> yeah im aware of that letter and i understand his points but until html 5 kicks off big time it would be good to have the support
> 
> i mainly talk about games for compatibilty
> 
> i have no mac btw i use my friends mac pro and other firends macbooks quite alot and since i dont own one so to take a game to a friends and it wont work plus any other compatibilty you might run into, i find it a bit much to run a dual boot or virtual machine to overcome this at a friends house



Just because it doesn't run on OS X doesn't make it non compatible though since you can technically run Windows on a Mac.  The games I agree on, and if you are wanting to game a lot, then get a PC.  That would fit your needs better.

I think gaming will come around though, now that Apple has over 20% of the consumer market share in the USA.  Steam is releasing their client and converting all the Valve games to the Mac platform.  Others will hopefully follow.


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## CrayonMuncher

apple is definatly rising, didnt know it was upto 20% tho, nice to see something rising instead of windows continuly dominating


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## tlarkin

innercx said:


> apple is definatly rising, didnt know it was upto 20% tho, nice to see something rising instead of windows continuly dominating



well world market share, about ~7%, US consumer market share it is now over 20%.

Not sure how it fares in Europe.


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## CrayonMuncher

in the uk (where im from) its 5 % which is up from 3.8 % last year 
sales increased 26.8%
this seems to be quite a jump for one year

im not sure about europe overall


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## Drenlin

tlarkin said:


> *sigh* I am not a fanboy, I use FACTS to back my claims.  You cannot find a laptop that compares.  You don't even read into specs, features, and most importantly overall cost of ownership.
> 
> You just lost the debate, quit being all butt-hurt by it.
> 
> I have said many times that both Asus and Lenovo make some bad ass PC laptops.  The problem is, you can't find me something that is actually comparable.  Size, weight, and battery life are HUGE factors when spec'ing a laptop.



I know damned well they aren't directly comparable. One is mostly geared for aesthetics and battery life, and the other for performance. I was simply arguing that Asus was offering a laptop of equal-or-higher caliber for a lower price.

And no, you did not always use "facts" to back up your claims. In fact, in a couple of cases, what you said was completely wrong or somewhat irrelevant. This was your argument. Responses in red:



tlarkin said:


> IPS Screen
> You say this as if the screen on the Asus is low quality, but it isn't. It's higher resolution than the macbook's default screen, and has great color reproduction. If the Macbook's screen is a 10, this is easily an 8 or 9.
> 
> no A radio support for wireless
> I fail to see why a new device should have this.
> 
> No multi touch track pad
> Like all Asus notebooks, and indeed any newer computer with a Synaptics touchpad, it has multitouch with programmable zones and gestures. It also has buttons.
> 
> No SMS (sudden motion sensor)
> This only protects the hard drive, and only in certain situations. This is more a marketing feature than anything.
> 
> no back lit keyboard
> It does have a back lit keyboard, like every other G-series.
> 
> no ambient light sensor
> And I need this why? Again, this is a minor issue.
> 
> no firewire
> no firewire 800
> Agreed, this would have been useful, but most people don't use firewire...
> 
> 2.5 hour battery life
> Considering the fact that the Asus is 2.5 to 3 times as powerful, and the Macbook runs a lighter OS and has a battery that takes up ~2/5 of its interior space, is it any wonder the battery life is worse? You can't really compare them directly on this basis. All things considered the Asus is actually pretty good.
> 
> over 2 inches thick, where the MBP is just under 1" thick
> Only at one end, because of the massive cooling system needed to keep it at ~70C when overclocked. Again, this is one of those areas where you can't really compare the two directly.
> 
> no aluminum unibody
> No, but like many high end laptops, it has a magnesium chassis, which typically has better mechanical properties but must be finished. The rest of it is most likely some sort of polycarbonate. It's doubtful that there's a whole lot of difference in the overall durability of the two.
> 
> Also, Apple's use of the term "unibody" is a bit misleading, since like most laptops it is separated into several parts..
> 
> It lists the weight as 7.5 lbs on that Asus
> See above


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## tlarkin

I can highlight text too...



> _IPS Screen_
> You say this as if the screen on the Asus is low quality, but it isn't. It's higher resolution than the macbook's default screen, and has great color reproduction. If the Macbook's screen is a 10, this is easily an 8 or 9.
> 
> *LED back lit IPS screens are the highest quality of screens sure they have their caveats, but the price difference alone sets the Mac in a different tier priced range.*
> 
> _no A radio support for wireless_
> I fail to see why a new device should have this.
> 
> *You fail to see the point that this is a feature and would cost more to add to the laptop. A radios are still used, our whole enterprise is A radio, because many devices we don't want on our network do not support A radios, like Gameboys, PSPs and so forth.*
> 
> _No multi touch track pad_
> Like all Asus notebooks, and indeed any newer computer with a Synaptics touchpad, it has a multitouch pad with programmable zones and gestures. It also has buttons.
> 
> *Let me rephrase, it may have similar support but quality is not the same.  Track pads are notorious for going out in laptops, and all PCs use lower quality ones compared to the their competitors, again thus raising the cost of the Mac.  If you were to match the Mac one, it would be an added cost.  Also, not all new laptops support multi touch.  Just got a bunch of dells in at work that do not support, and they are brand new preloaded with win 7 pro.
> *
> _No SMS (sudden motion sensor)_
> This only protects the hard drive, and only in certain situations. This is more a marketing feature than anything. A minor issue.
> 
> *Again, you are wrong.  Applications take advantage of the SMS and some of them are quite nifty.   iAlertU is one that is very handy and practical and takes advantage of the SMS.
> *
> _no back lit keyboard_
> It does have a backlit keyboard, like every other G-series.
> 
> *Hmm, this sounds fishy, I not only looked at the specs of this PC laptop on whatever site you linked (you linked both Best buy and newegg) and I google searched it.  If I stated I did not see a back lit keyboard then it was not listed as  a feature.  You want to link those sources.*
> 
> _no ambient light sensor_
> And I need this why? Again, this is a minor issue.
> 
> *You obviously do not know it's usefulness, it has plenty of practicality and it does in fact help.  It auto adjusts the backlight for the screen and the keyboard on the fly according to surrounding light and it helps save a ton on battery power.*
> 
> 
> _no firewire
> no firewire 800_
> Agreed, this would have been useful, but most people don't use firewire.
> 
> *citation needed, thanks*
> 
> _2.5 hour battery life_
> Considering the fact that the Asus is 2.5 to 3 times as powerful, and the Macbook's battery takes up ~2/5 of its interior space, is it any wonder the battery life is worse? You can't really compare them on this basis.
> 
> *2 to 3 times more powerful, how can you even quantify that?  Not only was Apple able to expand their battery by doing so in their new design, they also expanded the warranty life on it.  It has a warranty for 1000 cycles.  No other laptop comes close to battery performance or battery warranty.
> *
> _over 2 inches thick, where the MBP is just under 1" thick_
> Only at one end, because of the massive cooling system needed to keep it at ~70C when overclocked. Again, this is one of those areas where you can't really compare the two.
> 
> *Laptops are all about mobility, and most laptop users are all about the mobility aspect not about how powerful it is with massive cooling systems.  If it needs the massive cooling system it is obviously up for a higher margin of failure rates.  It is comparable because no one else can pack that much punch into such a small chasis, but Apple.  It is a feature and a benefit.
> *
> _no aluminum unibody_
> No, but like many high end laptops, it has a magnesium chassis, which doesn't look as good as aluminum but has better mechanical properties. The rest of it is most likely some sort of polycarbonate...can't find the info on that.
> 
> *No they use cheap plastics, Apple is very open about what materials they use in their laptops.  They advertise their plastics and their metals.
> *
> Also, Apple's use of the term "unibody" is a bit misleading, as like most laptops it is separated into two parts.
> 
> *Ever take apart many PC laptops? Their plastic casing generally breaks down into a dozen or more pieces.  Of course you cannot have a complete one piece body, that would not be possible.  It is referring to the upper chasis of the laptop, which is unibody.  This at best, is an argument of semantics and nitpicking.
> *
> _It lists the weight as 7.5 lbs on that Asus_
> See above
> 
> *size and weight are essential laptop qualities.  Especially when you haul one around all day every day.*


----------



## Ethan3.14159

Drenlin: That is so wrong it hurts.

The highest resolution possible isn't a good thing. It's about perfect pixel density. Who the hell wants 1920 x 1080 on a 15" screen?? Everything is so small and difficult to see at that size and resolution. I call bullshit on the better color reproduction. Sorry, but the Macbook Pro screens are far higher quality. You can't compare IPS screens to standard LED or LCD screens.

An ambient light sensor is important for some people. It controls the backlit keyboard and brightness of the screen to prevent eye strain. Not to mention saves battery life.

The Unibody chassis isn't "misleading" every Macbook Pro is carved out of one solid block of aluminum. It makes it far sturdier than PC laptops that are pieced together out of plastic and sometimes aluminum or magnesium.

I fail to see exactly how it's 2.5 - 3x as powerful. Actually the 8 cell battery in the Macbook Pro takes up less space than the average laptop battery. The design of flat cells over cylindrical saves a lot of space. Also, Macbook's have a chip that monitors the battery to keep from overcharging, so they last many times longer than PC laptop batteries. 

Even though the Asus is apparently much more powerful it's far slower starting up and shutting down. Not to mention much slower in many applications, such as Photoshop, Adobe Premiere, Cubase, etc etc. But that's just down to an inferior OS that can't manage resources properly.

Oh noes!!! No 3DMark06 benchmarks! It must be teh sux0rs!!!


----------



## speedyink

Ethan3.14159 said:


> The highest resolution possible isn't a good thing. It's about perfect pixel density. Who the hell wants 1920 x 1080 on a 15" screen?? Everything is so small and difficult to see at that size and resolution. I call bullshit on the better color reproduction. Sorry, but the Macbook Pro screens are far higher quality. You can't compare IPS screens to standard LED or LCD screens.



Whhhat??  I love my 1920x1080 16" screen.  I know with a mac it may be hard to see, but in Windows you can adjust the DPI to compensate.  Higher resolution = clearer picture = better screen. 



Ethan3.14159 said:


> The Unibody chassis isn't "misleading" every Macbook Pro is carved out of one solid block of aluminum. It makes it far sturdier than PC laptops that are pieced together out of plastic and sometimes aluminum or magnesium.



This laptop I'm typing on was ripped off it's lock by some crack head, had beer or pop spilled over it, and was used as a projectile weapon from a pissed off ex girlfriend.  And thats only what I know.  It's plastic, it looks pretty much new (I cleaned it when I got it), and functions fine.  Don't tell me plastic ain't strong.



Ethan3.14159 said:


> Also, Macbook's have a chip that monitors the battery to keep from overcharging, so they last many times longer than PC laptop batteries.



Lol, every single Lithion Ion battery has this chip..it's a safety feature and required.

I knew this would happen to this thread, lol.


----------



## tlarkin

> Lol, every single Lithion Ion battery has this chip..it's a safety feature and required.



Not exactly the same, this is firmware level stuff that lets the power management control the battery.  The standard sensors you are referring to are read only and only relay battery info to the laptop.  I am sure some PC laptops out there have a similar feature, but it is definitely not a standard one.


----------



## MyCattMaxx

I'd be very surprised if the OP responds to this thread again.


----------



## tlarkin

MyCattMaxx said:


> I'd be very surprised if the OP responds to this thread again.



Assuming Bettina is a gal, she probably won't even care to read any of this stuff.  This thread derailed quick anyway, with people who have no business talking about a Mac butting in and doing so.


----------



## Drenlin

tlarkin said:


> LED back lit IPS screens are the highest quality of screens sure they have their caveats, but the price difference alone sets the Mac in a different tier priced range.
> Sure, the screen costs more, but Apple's profit margins do just as much to raise the price. The "Apple tax" is no myth. Their net profit margins are 2-3 times what most manufacturers are, and 6.4 times as high as Asus's. (22.77% compared to 3.55%)
> 
> You fail to see the point that this is a feature and would cost more to add to the laptop. A radios are still used, our whole enterprise is A radio, because many devices we don't want on our network do not support A radios, like Gameboys, PSPs and so forth.
> Using an outdated technology in place of security seems rather strange to me. Regardless, that's an industrial/business application, which is an entirely different scenario. Wireless G has replaced A/B for several years now...there's really no reason to keep using it unless you're a business that can't afford to upgrade the whole network.
> 
> Let me rephrase, it may have similar support but quality is not the same. Track pads are notorious for going out in laptops, and all PCs use lower quality ones compared to the their competitors, again thus raising the cost of the Mac. If you were to match the Mac one, it would be an added cost. Also, not all new laptops support multi touch. Just got a bunch of dells in at work that do not support, and they are brand new preloaded with win 7 pro.
> I didn't say all laptops. I said laptops with a Synaptics touchpad. Synaptics is an OEM. Some models may require a driver update, but said driver update can even affect models that are several years old.
> 
> Also, you cannot possibly know the quality of this particular machine's touchpad. Granted, it probably doesn't match the Macbook's, but you never know. Synaptics has several really awesome models.
> 
> Again, you are wrong. Applications take advantage of the SMS and some of them are quite nifty. iAlertU is one that is very handy and practical and takes advantage of the SMS.
> They use the accelerometer. The SMS system is just a means of disengaging the hard drive's mechanicals before impact, using the accelerometer as a trigger.
> 
> Hmm, this sounds fishy, I not only looked at the specs of this PC laptop on whatever site you linked (you linked both Best buy and newegg) and I google searched it. If I stated I did not see a back lit keyboard then it was not listed as a feature. You want to link those sources.
> To my knowledge, there are no current RoG laptops that don't have this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You obviously do not know it's usefulness, it has plenty of practicality and it does in fact help. It auto adjusts the backlight for the screen and the keyboard on the fly according to surrounding light and it helps save a ton on battery power.
> I can see where it would work well on the ipad/pod/phone, but I'd rather take half a second to choose my laptop's brightness myself, thanks. You obviously are of a different opinion, so I guess this point is moot on both sides...
> 
> citation needed, thanks
> Common sense, man. Most peripherals use USB, and the ones that do use firewire often need a powered port, not the un-powered mini port on laptops. There are definitely uses for it, though...I could use it for recording interfaces, for sure. I stand by my point. It would be useful, but not sorely missed.
> 
> 2 to 3 times more powerful, how can you even quantify that? Not only was Apple able to expand their battery by doing so in their new design, they also expanded the warranty life on it. It has a warranty for 1000 cycles. No other laptop comes close to battery performance or battery warranty.
> Well, the i7 models typically can do about 30-35% more work than the i5's, and the Mobility Radeon HD5870 can do 200-250% more work than the GT330M, which matters more. Couple that with the fact that you can overclock the whole system by quite a bit, and you can see where I'm going.
> 
> Laptops are all about mobility, and most laptop users are all about the mobility aspect not about how powerful it is with massive cooling systems. If it needs the massive cooling system it is obviously up for a higher margin of failure rates. It is comparable because no one else can pack that much punch into such a small chasis, but Apple. It is a feature and a benefit.
> This one is not about mobility so much as performance. You can't really compare them directly.
> 
> No they use cheap plastics, Apple is very open about what materials they use in their laptops. They advertise their plastics and their metals.
> Well that's a blanket statement if I've ever seen one. Who is "they"? Because I can point out laptops from quite a few manufacturers that use magnesium chassis. Keep in mind, it is easily mistaken for plastic. I honestly thought my XPS _was_ plastic until I rubbed through the paint and saw the material. Even then it took me a bit to figure it out, because magnesium isn't shiny in air and sounds like plastic when tapped on through paint.
> 
> And about the polycarbonates- They are the logical choice for laptop chassis. They are mid-high in production costs, but have high yield rates because the are very easily molded. That, coupled with the fact that they have perfect electrical and mechanical properties for a laptop makes them an ideal choice for almost any manufacturer.
> 
> Ever take apart many PC laptops? Their plastic casing generally breaks down into a dozen or more pieces. Of course you cannot have a complete one piece body, that would not be possible. It is referring to the upper chasis of the laptop, which is unibody. This at best, is an argument of semantics and nitpicking.
> "A dozen or more" is a bit high. Older designs, sure. With newer ones, 5-10 is more accurate...I'd say most are around 8. The MBP has 6, IIRC. I agree though, this isn't a big issue.
> 
> size and weight are essential laptop qualities. Especially when you haul one around all day every day.
> Again, these are designed for different things. I was comparing the caliber of the computer, not its specific function.



Also, I'm not going into detail because it's 5:30 AM, but the Asus has quite a few other features that make it perfectly suited for its purpose. It is thoroughly well-designed machine. 

My point is not to pit these two specific machines against each other in a deathmatch, but to show that you can easily find a computer of similar quality to a macbook for a lower price. 

However, photo editing is the Mac's forte, so TS, if you like the operating system well enough, then you'll be perfectly fine with it.


----------



## Geoff

speedyink said:


> Whhhat??  I love my 1920x1080 16" screen.  I know with a mac it may be hard to see, but in Windows you can adjust the DPI to compensate.  Higher resolution = clearer picture = better screen.


Higher resolution does not mean a better screen.  IPS screens are MUCH more expensive, and have superior color reproduction.  There is a reason why you can buy a 28" 1920x1200 LCD monitor for $350 but a lower end 24" IPS monitor goes for over $400.


----------



## tlarkin

For someone who doesn't really know jack-crap about Macs, you sure have a lot of opinions on them....one last time



> Sure, the screen costs more, but Apple's profit margins do just as much to raise the price. The "Apple tax" is no myth. Their net profit margins are 2-3 times what most manufacturers are, and 6.4 times as high as Asus's. (22.77% compared to 3.55%)



This is false, just look at the going market rate for IPS screens to begin with.  high end 24" monitors sell for over $700.  The lower end IPS ones over $400.  Apple is pricing it fairly compared to what the market is currently selling them for.  Apple doesn't make it's money off of hardware sales all by itself.  They may have a higher profit margin but that is because they do everything in house.  From the bottom up, which means not only do they have quality control, but they have financial control as well.  Apple laptops are also made of higher quality parts, that is just a fact.  PCs are mass produced by factories in Asia from the lowest bidder.  Almost all PC computer parts are made by the same 4 or 5 manufacturers.



> Using an outdated technology in place of security seems rather strange to me. Regardless, that's an industrial/business application, which is an entirely different scenario. Wireless G has replaced A/B for several years now...there's really no reason to keep using it unless you're a business that can't afford to upgrade the whole network.



Again, you have no idea what you are talking about.  802.11A radios have a much broader signal spectrum, it is 5Ghz, as opposed to 2.4Ghz.  When you have thousands upon thousands of wireless devices from phones, cameras, laptops, netbooks, some desktops on wifi, and so forth - having that wider spectrum bandwidth is essential.  802.11N has some support for 5Ghz bands, but it is not like every enterprise has 100s of millions to upgrade their back end to a pre-standard at this point in time.  802.11A has not been replaced.  Read a book on networking.



> I didn't say all laptops. I said laptops with a Synaptics touchpad. Synaptics is an OEM. Some models may require a driver update, but said driver update can even affect models that are several years old.
> 
> Also, you cannot possibly know the quality of this particular machine's touchpad. Granted, it probably doesn't match the Macbook's, but you never know. Synaptics has several really awesome models.



I know it is not made out of the same physical materials as the Macbooks.



> To my knowledge, there are no current RoG laptops that don't have this.



Fair enough but last time we had this debate that was not listed as a feature or part of the specs on any website you linked.  I know because I read the links you provided and compiled a list of features it was lacking compared to the Mac.  If this is the case, then I retract my previous comment.



> Common sense, man. Most peripherals use USB, and the ones that do use firewire often need a powered port, not the un-powered mini port on laptops. There are definitely uses for it, though...I could use it for recording interfaces, for sure. I stand by my point. It would be useful, but not sorely missed.



Again, this is your opinion.  FW is a superior technology.  Data transfers run at a constant rate, where USB is burst speed and not as reliable.  If you are doing large file transfers, audio/video stuff, high end audio hardware connects over firewire, or if you want to use Target Disk Mode, you are going to need a FW port.  Most basic cheap peripherals are USB, almost all high end ones are through firewire.  Regardless of your opinion of it, this is yet another feature your PC comparison lacked.  Therefore it would cost extra money to add that feature to your compared PC laptop, thus raising the cost.  Just like adding support for 802.11A wifi.  Even if you claim you do not need it, to make a more balanced comparison you would be forced to upgrade the PC to compare actual costs versus features given.  Which is my point the *WHOLE* time.



> Well, the i7 models typically can do about 30-35% more work than the i5's, and the Mobility Radeon HD5870 can do 200-250% more work than the GT330M, which matters more. Couple that with the fact that you can overclock the whole system by quite a bit, and you can see where I'm going.



This is why I hate benchmarks.  It gives a false sense of performance.  30-35% faster in what application?  What use?  What specific conditions?  It may be, at some point 30-35% faster in certain aspects, but overall performance no way.  Also, Apple offers both the i5 and the i7 now.  Over clock a laptop?  What retard would do that?  It would destroy your battery life.  Your point is completely pointless.



> Well that's a blanket statement if I've ever seen one. Who is "they"? Because I can point out laptops from quite a few manufacturers that use magnesium chassis. Keep in mind, it is easily mistaken for plastic. I honestly thought my XPS was plastic until I rubbed through the paint and saw the material. Even then it took me a bit to figure it out, because magnesium isn't shiny in air and sounds like plastic when tapped on through paint.
> 
> And about the polycarbonates- They are the logical choice for laptop chassis. They are mid-high in production costs, but have high yield rates because the are very easily molded. That, coupled with the fact that they have perfect electrical and mechanical properties for a laptop makes them an ideal choice for almost any manufacturer.



Again, how many laptops have you taken apart and put back together. Cheaply made plastic snap-on parts do not last as long as metal unibody parts which do not snap together.  I can't tell you how many times I have seen laptops chipped all over from being dump or laid down in their bags the wrong way.  This is because they are cheaply made.  When I say they, I am talking pretty much about most sub $1,000 PC laptops.   I agree that there are some nicer PC laptops out there, but they are almost always at the very least $800 to $900 and the really higher quality ones are over $1,000.00.  My parents bought a new laptop recently, Sony Vaio.  It was I think $750.  It is slim, not as slim as a mac, but you can tell the plastic on the body does not hold up to the metal of the Mac.  Plastic also warps and bends easier.



> Again, these are designed for different things. I was comparing the caliber of the computer, not its specific function.



This is where you FAIL to see that the Macbook Pro packs a super mean punch in a small, sleek, light weight case.  With tons of more battery life.  People don't buy laptops for power, they buy them for mobility.   You are failing to see these as features, but they are.  You will not find a PC laptop with in spec range of a Mac and have it yield the same battery life and be the same size and weight.  You keep arguing that you don't need a certain feature, or that it being 2 inches thick is not a big deal.  If you want to compare the Macbook to the PC you gotta make sure the PC matches the Macbook in every aspect, only then is it comparable.

As for the Sudden Motion Sensor applications, I was assuming you'd actually use google, but here I did it for you:

http://osxbook.com/book/bonus/chapter10/ams2hid/

http://www.lockergnome.com/osx/2006/07/13/using-that-sudden-motion-sensor-for-fun/

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/11-cool-and-sometimes-useless-things-you-can-do-with-your-macbook/

[YT]gxDiOJOt0Hg[/YT]

[YT]Dl4jxjhw8WE[/YT]

[YT]KkAtRfA1UXc[/YT]

So, next time you want to match up a PC laptop, make sure it actually has similar specs so it is comparable.  Otherwise, your whole point is pretty much forfeit.   If it is lacking a feature, you better add the fact that the costs should off balance if you were to add an IPS screen, SMS, 802.11A, or the fact that Aluminum is more expensive than plastic and is a higher quality part.  It won't warp or melt in the heat as easy as a plastic will, nor will chip or fade either.  That raises the production and manufacturing cost of the laptop.


----------



## Geoff

Checkmate.


----------



## tlarkin

[-0MEGA-];1465527 said:
			
		

> Checkmate.



Arguing, that you don't need 802.11A does not take away from the fact if the PC laptop doesn't have that feature, it would STILL be an extra cost to add it.  If you wanted to compare a build-your-own desktop to an iMac, your monitor better be IPS supported and the same size, otherwise it is not even a close comparison.

People who can't grasp that concept have no business posting in these threads.


----------



## Geoff

tlarkin said:


> Arguing, that you don't need 802.11A does not take away from the fact if the PC laptop doesn't have that feature, it would STILL be an extra cost to add it.  If you wanted to compare a build-your-own desktop to an iMac, your monitor better be IPS supported and the same size, otherwise it is not even a close comparison.
> 
> People who can't grasp that concept have no business posting in these threads.


Agreed.  I myself used to think that Mac's were overpriced and not worth the cost unless you were a photo/video editor.  Once you've used Mac's and know what makes up the higher cost for those who compare basics specs to a Windows-based laptop, know that Mac's are worth what the cost.

On an unrelated note, you mention that you are using 802.11a to help limit the number of personal equipment on the network.  I'm not sure what you are using for your firewall, but at our school district we will be upgrading to newer Sonicwall's that allows MAC filtering.  Our plan is to tie into our inventory control system and add all district computers to the white list, which will block any student or teacher from using their computer, iPod, DS, etc. on our network.


----------



## tlarkin

[-0MEGA-];1465573 said:
			
		

> Agreed.  I myself used to think that Mac's were overpriced and not worth the cost unless you were a photo/video editor.  Once you've used Mac's and know what makes up the higher cost for those who compare basics specs to a Windows-based laptop, know that Mac's are worth what the cost.



I think that ultimately they are not 100% comparable, but if you want to compare you better bring the PC in question up to spec to the Mac to compare it.



> On an unrelated note, you mention that you are using 802.11a to help limit the number of personal equipment on the network.  I'm not sure what you are using for your firewall, but at our school district we will be upgrading to newer Sonicwall's that allows MAC filtering.  Our plan is to tie into our inventory control system and add all district computers to the white list, which will block any student or teacher from using their computer, iPod, DS, etc. on our network.



Hmm, we have over 20,000 devices in my enterprise with a MAC address.  Mac filtering?  No thanks.    802.11 A has the higher bandwidth too, which makes microwave signal better in old, solid steel and brick buildings.


----------



## Geoff

tlarkin said:


> Hmm, we have over 20,000 devices in my enterprise with a MAC address.  Mac filtering?  No thanks.    802.11 A has the higher bandwidth too, which makes microwave signal better in old, solid steel and brick buildings.


Our district is smaller, about 1/5 the size.  We have our own inventory control system that we were able to tie into so we don't have to do everything manually.  Sure it's a pain to initially setup, but whenever a new computer is reimaged the MAC will automatically be added to the white list.


----------



## tlarkin

[-0MEGA-];1465628 said:
			
		

> Our district is smaller, about 1/5 the size.  We have our own inventory control system that we were able to tie into so we don't have to do everything manually.  Sure it's a pain to initially setup, but whenever a new computer is reimaged the MAC will automatically be added to the white list.



we have 8,000 Macs and I manage them.  We use the Casper Suite and I have a full inventory I can output into spread sheets, php, html, csv, and so forth and tie into all sorts of things.  I also can easily push out authenticated bind scripts (which I have done for certain computers) which will generate unique entries in Open Directory and then I can add in LDAP support for any third party and it can take it from there.

The problem is, this district has been around for like 80 years, and it is rather large (over 60 buildings, 30k students, 5k employees) and not everything is in an inventory system.  Then we have all the network cameras, switches, controllers, and so forth that also have Ethernet ports and MAC addresses, as well as 1000s of access points (all Cisco).  

I see the benefit of it for sure, but anytime anyone mentions MAC filtering everyone's eyes kind of glaze over.  I'd rather do authentication and run RADIUS and tie it into LDAP personally.  Which we can do, but no one here as the time to even test it out, let along implement it to 20,000 devices.


----------



## Drenlin

tlarkin said:


> This is false, just look at the going market rate for IPS screens to begin with.  high end 24" monitors sell for over $700.  The lower end IPS ones over $400.  Apple is pricing it fairly compared to what the market is currently selling them for.  Apple doesn't make it's money off of hardware sales all by itself.  They may have a higher profit margin but that is because they do everything in house.  From the bottom up, which means not only do they have quality control, but they have financial control as well.  Apple laptops are also made of higher quality parts, that is just a fact.  PCs are mass produced by factories in Asia from the lowest bidder.  Almost all PC computer parts are made by the same 4 or 5 manufacturers.


Apple does not do "everything" in house. Some of the previous generation Macbooks were _manufactured by Asus_. The new ones are most likely manufactured by Quanta and Foxconn. What I quoted was their net profit margin...meaning after everything is said and done, this is what they make. It's higher than any other company I could find, though IBM wasn't far behind.



> Again, you have no idea what you are talking about.  802.11A radios have a much broader signal spectrum, it is 5Ghz, as opposed to 2.4Ghz.  When you have thousands upon thousands of wireless devices from phones, cameras, laptops, netbooks, some desktops on wifi, and so forth - having that wider spectrum bandwidth is essential.  802.11N has some support for 5Ghz bands, but it is not like every enterprise has 100s of millions to upgrade their back end to a pre-standard at this point in time.  802.11A has not been replaced.  Read a book on networking.


I didn't realize your workplace was so large...apologies. I can see the use of it there. Still, you know as well as I do that most non-commercial networks support B/G. The average consumer will likely use an A-only network very rarely, if at all. And if it's really that big of a deal to the owner, it doesn't cost a whole lot to buy an a/b/g/n card and install it...



> I know it is not made out of the same physical materials as the Macbooks.


Fair enough. I did say that it most likely isn't as good. Tell me, though, what is the G73's touch pad made of?



> Again, this is your opinion.  FW is a superior technology.  Data transfers run at a constant rate, where USB is burst speed and not as reliable.  If you are doing large file transfers, audio/video stuff, high end audio hardware connects over firewire, or if you want to use Target Disk Mode, you are going to need a FW port.


My point exactly. It's useful for his sort of thing, but the average user of a gaming laptop won't be doing that type of stuff. They chose to drop Firewire in favor of other features that gamers would want. Same with Expresscard.



> Most basic cheap peripherals are USB, almost all high end ones are through Firewire.  Regardless of your opinion of it, this is yet another feature your PC comparison lacked.  Therefore it would cost extra money to add that feature to your compared PC laptop, thus raising the cost.  Just like adding support for 802.11A wifi.  Even if you claim you do not need it, to make a more balanced comparison you would be forced to upgrade the PC to compare actual costs versus features given.  Which is my point the *WHOLE* time.


Fair enough, then. If you want things that raise production cost, add a low range driver, on-the-fly overclocking, a 7200RPM hard drive(optional dual 500GB), a second 2.5" SATA bay, two more DIMMs, a second video output, an optional Blu-Ray drive, an EAX 4.0 compatible sound card, a numpad, and a standard lithium-ion battery to the macbook and see what happens to the cost of it.



> This is why I hate benchmarks.  It gives a false sense of performance.  30-35% faster in what application?  What use?  What specific conditions?  It may be, at some point 30-35% faster in certain aspects, but overall performance no way.  Also, Apple offers both the i5 and the i7 now.


It doesn't translate well into real-world performance, but it does translate fairly well into power usage, which was the point pf that comment.



> Over clock a laptop?  What retard would do that?  It would destroy your battery life.


Gamers would do that. Again, this thing isn't made for long battery life. It's a portable gaming system. Performance matters more than portability. It'll most likelly be plugged in while gaming. If battery life is that big of an issue for the owner, they can just buy a second battery...it'd take, what, a minute at most to shut down, swap them out, and power up again?



> Again, how many laptops have you taken apart and put back together. Cheaply made plastic snap-on parts do not last as long as metal unibody parts which do not snap together.  I can't tell you how many times I have seen laptops chipped all over from being dump or laid down in their bags the wrong way.  This is because they are cheaply made.  When I say they, I am talking pretty much about most sub $1,000 PC laptops.   I agree that there are some nicer PC laptops out there, but they are almost always at the very least $800 to $900 and the really higher quality ones are over $1,000.00.  My parents bought a new laptop recently, Sony Vaio.  It was I think $750.  It is slim, not as slim as a mac, but you can tell the plastic on the body does not hold up to the metal of the Mac.  Plastic also warps and bends easier.


 For $750, that'd have to be a Vaio E-series. E stands for Eco...they're built using "green" technologies. The shell is recycled bottles, so it's going to be a bit flimsier than usual.

And actually, Aluminum will suffer from permanent deformation before most plastics will. I'm not saying that cheaper plastic is a better choice, and I'm certainly not saying that apple's shells are low quality, but it's not a clear-cut case of aluminum=good and plastic=bad.



> This is where you FAIL to see that the Macbook Pro packs a super mean punch in a small, sleek, light weight case.  With tons of more battery life.  People don't buy laptops for power, they buy them for mobility.   You are failing to see these as features, but they are.  You will not find a PC laptop with in spec range of a Mac and have it yield the same battery life and be the same size and weight.  You keep arguing that you don't need a certain feature, or that it being 2 inches thick is not a big deal.  If you want to compare the Macbook to the PC you gotta make sure the PC matches the Macbook in every aspect, only then is it comparable.


Again, the laptop I mentioned is not built for ultra-high mobility. People DO buy it for power. I could say "Show me a Macbook that comes anywhere close to what the G73's can do." and we'd be here for another week. But that isn't the point. You cannot compare a Bentley Continental to a Saleen S7 apples-to-apples, but they are both equally top-notch vehicles.



> As for the Sudden Motion Sensor applications, I was assuming you'd actually use google, but here I did it for you:


Again, those are using the built-in accelerometer. It could be argued that this is part of that system, but SMS _as described by Apple_ is a means of protecting the hard drive.


----------



## speedyink

[-0MEGA-];1465440 said:
			
		

> Higher resolution does not mean a better screen.  IPS screens are MUCH more expensive, and have superior color reproduction.  There is a reason why you can buy a 28" 1920x1200 LCD monitor for $350 but a lower end 24" IPS monitor goes for over $400.



I was generalizing.. For example, a 1360x768 IPS would be considered worse than a 1920x1080 IPS screen...regardless of the screen size.

As for this whole argument;

Is the Macbook Pro one of the best laptops you can buy?  

Yes.

Would I buy one?

No.

Why?  Because I'm not paying for a bunch of features I don't need.  Light sensor..don't need it..I can control the screen brightness easy enough myself.  SMS, nope, I'm careful with my shit.  Glass touchpad?  Well..considering I carry around my logitech nano everywhere, no dice.  IPS Screen?  Sure, photography is a hobby, but not big enough to justify dropping $300 for a bit better color depth.  Viewing angle isn't an advantage anymore.  

I could go on but you get the point.  Honestly, I don't have $1600 burning a hole in my ass, so if I can save $800 by tweaking the options I will.  But that does mean I can't buy a mac.


----------



## Drenlin

^ Well said.


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> Not exactly the same, this is firmware level stuff that lets the power management control the battery.  The standard sensors you are referring to are read only and only relay battery info to the laptop.  I am sure some PC laptops out there have a similar feature, but it is definitely not a standard one.



Well, that may be a different chip or something, but every lithium ion battery has a chip to monitor the temperature, so as the battery doesn't combust.  The chemicals in a lithium ion are much more prone to that than say the chemicals in an alkaline.  The handy side effect of this is that it does help prevent over charging.

Edit:

Via Wikipedia:

Safety requirements
Li-ion batteries are not as durable as nickel metal hydride or nickel-cadmium designs,[citation needed] and can be dangerous if mistreated. They may suffer thermal runaway and cell rupture if overheated or charged to an excessively high voltage.[38] In extreme cases, these effects may be described as "explosive." Furthermore, they may be irreversibly damaged if discharged below a certain voltage. To reduce these risks, lithium-ion batteries generally contain a small circuit that shuts down the battery when it is discharged below about 3 V or charged above about 4.2 V.[22][39] In normal use, the battery is therefore prevented from being deeply discharged. When stored for long periods, however, the small current drawn by the protection circuitry may drain the battery below the protection circuit's lower limit, in which case normal chargers are unable to recharge the battery. More sophisticated battery analyzers can recharge deeply discharged cells by slow-charging them to reactivate the safety circuit and allow the battery to accept charge again.[40]
Other safety features are required for commercial lithium-ion batteries:[22]
shut-down separator (for overtemperature),
tear-away tab (for internal pressure),
vent (pressure relief), and
thermal interrupt (overcurrent/overcharging).
These devices occupy useful space inside the cells, reduce their reliability[citation needed]; ,and permanently and irreversibly disable the cell when activated. They are required because the anode produces heat during use, while the cathode may produce oxygen. Safety devices and improved electrode designs greatly reduce or eliminate the risk of fire or explosion.
These safety features increase the cost of lithium-ion batteries compared to nickel metal hydride cells, which only require a hydrogen/oxygen recombination device (preventing damage due to mild overcharging) and a back-up pressure valve.[39]
Many types of lithium-ion cell cannot be charged safely below 0 °C.[citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Safety_requirements


----------



## tlarkin

speedyink said:


> I was generalizing.. For example, a 1360x768 IPS would be considered worse than a 1920x1080 IPS screen...regardless of the screen size.
> 
> As for this whole argument;
> 
> Is the Macbook Pro one of the best laptops you can buy?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Would I buy one?
> 
> No.
> 
> Why?  Because I'm not paying for a bunch of features I don't need.  Light sensor..don't need it..I can control the screen brightness easy enough myself.  SMS, nope, I'm careful with my shit.  Glass touchpad?  Well..considering I carry around my logitech nano everywhere, no dice.  IPS Screen?  Sure, photography is a hobby, but not big enough to justify dropping $300 for a bit better color depth.  Viewing angle isn't an advantage anymore.
> 
> I could go on but you get the point.  Honestly, I don't have $1600 burning a hole in my ass, so if I can save $800 by tweaking the options I will.  But that does mean I can't buy a mac.



Then the PC you are talking about is not comparable and the Mac is still not over priced.  Which is the whole debate I am getting at.

I know you hate apple, and that is your opinion, and you are one of the few people that have actually used one for a short period of time.  So I do take what you say better than what most people say here.


----------



## tlarkin

Drenlin said:


> Apple does not do "everything" in house. Some of the previous generation Macbooks were _manufactured by Asus_. The new ones are most likely manufactured by Quanta and Foxconn. What I quoted was their net profit margin...meaning after everything is said and done, this is what they make. It's higher than any other company I could find, though IBM wasn't far behind.



Apple still designs every aspect.  They don't make the Intel chipset either or the processor, Intel does.  However, they engineer everything about their systems.  Like I said earlier, there are only really like 5 actual major manufacturers in the world.  Every computer component is made by them.  That doesn't mean they use the same quality parts and that does not mean they all have the same quality engineering.




> I didn't realize your workplace was so large...apologies. I can see the use of it there. Still, you know as well as I do that most non-commercial networks support B/G. The average consumer will likely use an A-only network very rarely, if at all. And if it's really that big of a deal to the owner, it doesn't cost a whole lot to buy an a/b/g/n card and install it...



Regardless, it is still a feature that would cost extra, so any PC comparison better have it, or better have the cost of an upgrade included when comparing it to a Mac.  That is my whole point of why a Mac is not over priced.  



> Fair enough. I did say that it most likely isn't as good. Tell me, though, what is the G73's touch pad made of?



Not glass, and rubber wears down and does not age well.




> My point exactly. It's useful for his sort of thing, but the average user of a gaming laptop won't be doing that type of stuff. They chose to drop Firewire in favor of other features that gamers would want. Same with Expresscard.



Again, if your PC laptop doesn't have it, you need to factor in a cost of upgrade when comparing to a Mac.



> Fair enough, then. If you want things that raise production cost, add a low range driver, on-the-fly overclocking, a 7200RPM hard drive(optional dual 500GB), a second 2.5" SATA bay, two more DIMMs, a second video output, an optional Blu-Ray drive, an EAX 4.0 compatible sound card, a numpad, and a standard lithium-ion battery to the macbook and see what happens to the cost of it.



This makes no sense, no laptop comes with any of that standard.  Maybe the high end Sager laptops that have two hard drives in them, but those are meant for gaming and not a very practical laptop.  By definition a laptop is a mobile computer, and battery life is suppose to last a long time.  The only thing Apple has yet to adopt is bluray.  That does suck for Apple customers.  However, apple has HDMI out, which includes 7.1 audio, on every single computer they make.  They also have optical audio out.  Can support up to 8gigs of RAM, oh and they can also support 500gig SSD drives (if you want to drop $1500 on a 500gig SSD drive that is).   Every laptop has a numpad, unless you are talking about a separate num pad on the side?    Over clocking on the fly is the dumbest feature for a laptop, sorry not buying it.




> It doesn't translate well into real-world performance, but it does translate fairly well into power usage, which was the point pf that comment.



What?  That doesn't make any sense.  OK, I will give you this.  You are rendering a giant file in say Maya, OK, yeah it will render faster with i9, but the Macbook Pro has an i5 in it.  I don't get where you get this 30% faster crap, plus Windows is the WORST operating system in the world when it comes to managing resources.  It takes more memory and more CPU cycles to run Windows than it does any other OS.  That is a fact.  



> Gamers would do that. Again, this thing isn't made for long battery life. It's a portable gaming system. Performance matters more than portability. It'll most likelly be plugged in while gaming. If battery life is that big of an issue for the owner, they can just buy a second battery...it'd take, what, a minute at most to shut down, swap them out, and power up again?



So you are comparing a small niche market?  Your arguments are weak at best.  Most laptop users don't game on their laptop.  I sure as hell don't and I am a gamer.  Most laptop users want mobility.  Most laptop users who use their laptop professionally for their job (like me) want on the fly access to a mobile computer.  So what does Apple do?  They make a laptop for most users, not some niche market for gaming.  Apple did sort of go into a niche with the Macbook Air and the iPad, but the iPad is not a laptop, and not comparable.  You should compare that to eReaders and other touch screen devices.  So, for you to meet the Macbook Pros extensive and impressive battery life your solution is to buy a second battery?  Thus, raising the cost of the PC laptop you are comparing.



> For $750, that'd have to be a Vaio E-series. E stands for Eco...they're built using "green" technologies. The shell is recycled bottles, so it's going to be a bit flimsier than usual.



It was a model that came with a triple license of software which is why I chose it over the other ones they were looking at.  I actually tried getting them a Mac, but they wanted to save $200 by getting the Sony.  It came with licenses for XP Pro, Vista and 7 business.  It was right before 7 came out so if you bought it you got the free 7 upgrade my mailing something in to Sony.  I chose that one because I knew XP was getting old, and I hated Vista and was hoping 7 would be leaps and bounds better.  I have no clue if it was made of recycled stuff, and this was like maybe a year or even two years ago.  Hard to gauge when that was.




> And actually, Aluminum will suffer from permanent deformation before most plastics will. I'm not saying that cheaper plastic is a better choice, and I'm certainly not saying that apple's shells are low quality, but it's not a clear-cut case of aluminum=good and plastic=bad.



Hold a cigarette lighter to plastic and then to aluminum, see which permanently deforms first.



> Again, the laptop I mentioned is not built for ultra-high mobility. People DO buy it for power. I could say "Show me a Macbook that comes anywhere close to what the G73's can do." and we'd be here for another week. But that isn't the point. You cannot compare a Bentley Continental to a Saleen S7 apples-to-apples, but they are both equally top-notch vehicles.



You can't really use car analogies for computers either, but I get your point.  If I were to buy a PC laptop today, I would go buy a Lenovo or an Asus, as I think they are good machines.  My whole point the whole time in every thread though, is that you cannot compare the two, because you have to add so many extra features to the PC to make it comparable to the Macbook pro.  Yes, it being 5lbs and under 1 inch thick are huge features.  Most users want light weight and portable laptops.  Some days I have several meetings across town in different locations.  I don't want to haul around some heavy thick ass laptop, which battery only lasts 2 hours (meaning every time I relocate I gotta recharge) and it runs loud because of the massive cooling it needs.  Take a loud computer into a meeting, people will get sick of you pretty quickly.  You keep comparing everything to gamers.  Gaming laptops have a niche market, and guess what, people don't typically buy gaming laptops for professional use.  They buy Macs or they buy business class laptops, which are light weight, and have longer battery life.  If you want to compare your Asus, you need to find one with in spec of the Mac, including size and weight.  Then compare specs, and last price and adjust pricing for whatever features either lack over the other.  This is what I do and I get called a fan boy because I try to make a non biased opinion on the comparison.  Where as you don't use facts, use niche market devices and come up short when I ask you to match it feature to feature and spec to spec.




> Again, those are using the built-in accelerometer. It could be argued that this is part of that system, but SMS _as described by Apple_ is a means of protecting the hard drive.



Sudden Motion Sensor is not just for hard drives.  There is a freaking API to access and control it.  Please read up on it.  The Accelerometer is part of the system which makes up the SMS.  SMS was originally designed to shut off hard drives if sudden motion was detected (like a drop) and thus protect your data from physical damage of the hard disk.  The fact that there is an API for it, means you can develop for it, and yes it is still part of the SMS.  I have no idea why you are even trying to correct me on this.


----------



## realmike15

BettinaFJ said:


> Hey everyone!
> I have an old HP Paviliion laptop which is practically falling apart, and I need a replacement ASAP.
> I just cannot seem to make up my mind on whether I should stick with a laptop that uses Windows or go for a MacBook instead?
> I use a couple of photo editing tools: Photoshop, Lightroom, Photomax Pro and of course EOS Utility to transfer the photos from my camera (an EOS 400D) What are your experiences with MacBooks when it comes to photo editing?
> And with MacBooks in general?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> B



I didn't read the things everyone else said.  But let try and give you a completely unbiased look at the comparison.  I own a MacBook Pro as well as a Custom Build PC which I've been building for years.

1. The MacBook Pro has a very nice sleek design.  It looks nicer than probably any other laptop out there.  The aluminum body looks really nice too, though can scratch easy.
2. You will sacrifice some performance buying a Mac, when comparing it to a PC @ the same price.  I'm working in Aperture and wishing I had a more powerful video card, the 9400 is sort of slow.  The new ones have a better card, so things might have improved.  In the end, you will get more performance with your money buying a PC.  Mac's markup is notoriously higher, and don't listen anyone who tells you different.  I've put mac equivalents together for a Hack-in-Tosh system and my builds are always cheaper by $300-$1000.
3. Either OS system will work.  Don't let anyone tell you Mac's OS is superior.  I've actually had more app crashes on my Mac recently than my Windows 7 PC.
4. The multi-touch track pad on these MacBook's is fantasic.  It's improved my productivity 10 fold.

That's the important stuff I can think of.  It might sound like I'm favoring PC over Mac, but I'm not.  I love my MacBook Pro, it's a beautiful machine.  It's the $1,200 price tag that gets to me... for what this machine does $800 would have been more than reasonable and still given Apple quite a profit.  Apple builds their machines in China just like everyone else, don't be fooled.  It's really up to you, I choose to use Apple for it's beautiful design, clean user interface, and very portable design.  The PC will of course give you better specs for the same price, but in an enclosure that is most likely to be a little bulkier and not as sleek.

Good luck.  Try them both out and decide for yourself.


----------



## Geoff

mightymilk said:


> Mac's markup is notoriously higher, and don't listen anyone who tells you different.  I've put mac equivalents together for a Hack-in-Tosh system and my builds are always cheaper by $300-$1000.


I'll beat tlarkin here.  When you put together builds, did the Hack-in-Tosh system include an IPS screen, backlit keyboard, light sensor, SMS sensor, or 7-10 hour battery?


----------



## tlarkin

I just went to newegg and selected some parameters for a PC laptop which would be comparable to a mac, and this is my screen shot results attached.  OK the attachment looks like crap, let me host it and link it.


----------



## realmike15

[-0MEGA-];1465933 said:
			
		

> I'll beat tlarkin here.  When you put together builds, did the Hack-in-Tosh system include an IPS screen, backlit keyboard, light sensor, SMS sensor, or 7-10 hour battery?



1. Currently iMac is the only Mac with an IPS display, and at the time I did the comparison they did not have them.  Regardless you can pick up an IPS display for under $300 so it's really a moot point.

2. Backlit keyboard is only found on the MacBook Pro's, and you can get them on a number of computer that cost less than $1,200.

3. No SMS sensor

4. I think you missed my point entirely.  I'm comparing MacBook's to other laptop companies.  And I'm comparing the iMac and Mac Pro to desktops I could put together myself running hackintosh software.  These are two very different situations.


----------



## realmike15

tlarkin said:


> I just went to newegg and selected some parameters for a PC laptop which would be comparable to a mac, and this is my screen shot results attached.  OK the attachment looks like crap, let me host it and link it.



I have no interest in getting into a long debate, I've done this more times than I can count... and more importantly I'm at work.

But since you want proof, here's a perfect example of a computer with mostly better parts all around, and about $1,000 cheaper than what Apple would charge me.  

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129021
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131191
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150357
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815124015
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151063
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117206
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820146585
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136313
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823109156
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827249054

Let's not forget Apple gives you 3Gigs of RAM and a 640GB HDD in a $2,500 computer.... LOL

*edit* that's an old list.  replace anything that's out of stock with it's current equivalent and you'll find it much cheaper.  I'm not trying to make you feel bad if you own one, it's a nice machine.  But you need to be realistic about the fact that you paid about $1,000 more than you would have for a PC equivalent.


----------



## tlarkin

mightymilk said:


> I have no interest in getting into a long debate, I've done this more times than I can count... and more importantly I'm at work.
> 
> But since you want proof, here's a perfect example of a computer with mostly better parts all around, and about $1,000 cheaper than what Apple would charge me.
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129021
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131191
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150357
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815124015
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151063
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117206
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820146585
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136313
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823109156
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827249054
> 
> Let's not forget Apple gives you 3Gigs of RAM and a 640GB HDD in a $2,500 computer.... LOL



What the hell is this?   We are strictly talking about laptops, and you cannot build an all in one and if you compare a mini you gotta compare it to a shuttle, but even shuttles are over twice the size of a Mini.

I think that all-in-one computers are a bit of a niche market, but if you look at any other all-in-one from any other company they don't even hold a stick to the iMac.

How is your point even valid?  Plus, you cannot guarantee it will run better, and if you load windows on it you are already using more resources on just doing a default install.  What does windows 7 require?  15 gigs of HD space?  Plus your list is laughable.  That power supply is a piece of shit, Apple uses good power supplies in their computers.


----------



## realmike15

tlarkin said:


> What the hell is this?   We are strictly talking about laptops, and you cannot build an all in one and if you compare a mini you gotta compare it to a shuttle, but even shuttles are over twice the size of a Mini.
> 
> I think that all-in-one computers are a bit of a niche market, but if you look at any other all-in-one from any other company they don't even hold a stick to the iMac.
> 
> How is your point even valid?  Plus, you cannot guarantee it will run better, and if you load windows on it you are already using more resources on just doing a default install.  What does windows 7 require?  15 gigs of HD space?  Plus your list is laughable.  That power supply is a piece of shit, Apple uses good power supplies in their computers.



The only thing laughable is your opinion.  I'm at work and don't have the time to sit here and counter all the ridiculous things you've said, you're talking like a Mac fan boy.... and it's sad because I expected better from you.

When I get some time, I'll be more than happy to prove every claim you've made wrong.  But for right now, I have work to do.

Way to disregard the very valid host of links I gave you, with nothing but your opinion.  Come back with some proof or I'm done with this conversation.

Peace.


----------



## tlarkin

mightymilk said:


> The only thing laughable is your opinion.  I'm at work and don't have the time to sit here and counter all the ridiculous things you've said, you're talking like a Mac fan boy.... and it's sad because I expected better from you.
> 
> When I get some time, I'll be more than happy to prove every claim you've made wrong.  But for right now, I have work to do.
> 
> Peace.



OK, bring your desktop build, and I will prove you wrong.  I am not a fanboy, but I use unbiased facts when comparing a Mac to a PC.  Your build, is like comparing a Honda (your build) to a Mercedes (a Mac), sure they may both have 4 cylinder engines and get similar gas mileage but the Mercedes has a total different concept of engineering.  

You see, I have plenty of problems and criticisms of the Macintosh Platform, but I never get to express them because of people like you that can't grasp the concept if you are going to compare a PC to a Mac (which not even really technically 100% comparable) you must ensure that the PC has every feature and spec that a Mac does.  

Not everyone follows Apple's business model when designing their computers they sell to businesses and consumers, while some do.  Lenovo, Acer, and HP all have their own version of the Sudden Motion Sensor (which they all call it something different), however, it is not standard on every PC laptop.

So go ahead build your PC and I will prove you wrong, just like I prove everyone wrong on this forum who try to argue that Macs are over priced.  You get what you pay for.  If you don't want a mac then don't buy it, but that still does not mean they are over priced.

They also have a 22% consumer market share in the USA now, so obviously people are buying them.  If you must know, I manage both Macs and PCs for a living, have a Mac desktop and 2 custom built PCs at home as well as a macbook pro.  I am hardly a 100% mac user.


----------



## speedyink

tlarkin said:


> Then the PC you are talking about is not comparable and the Mac is still not over priced.  Which is the whole debate I am getting at.
> 
> I know you hate apple, and that is your opinion, and you are one of the few people that have actually used one for a short period of time.  So I do take what you say better than what most people say here.



When did i say that they were over priced?  I'm just saying i don't need all the extra crap they come with, so i can't justify spending the extra cash.  

Also, i do dislike apple for certain things they do and i don't like some of their products, but i do agree that some of the stuff they make is good.  Hell, i'm using osx right this second on my eee to listen to music.


----------



## tlarkin

speedyink said:


> When did i say that they were over priced?  I'm just saying i don't need all the extra crap they come with, so i can't justify spending the extra cash.
> 
> Also, i do dislike apple for certain things they do and i don't like some of their products, but i do agree that some of the stuff they make is good.  Hell, i'm using osx right this second on my eee to listen to music.



Just making a general statement, not towards you specifically


----------



## Drenlin

tlarkin said:


> Apple still designs every aspect.  They don't make the Intel chipset either or the processor, Intel does.  However, they engineer everything about their systems.  Like I said earlier, there are only really like 5 actual major manufacturers in the world.  Every computer component is made by them.  That doesn't mean they use the same quality parts and that does not mean they all have the same quality engineering.


Apple still has high profit margins, dude. There's no getting around that fact, no matter how you look at it. Asus actually *makes* most of their stuff, in their own factories. They therefore must design just as many of their components as Apple.



> *Regardless*, it is still a feature that would cost extra, so any PC comparison better have it, or better have the cost of an upgrade included when comparing it to a Mac.  That is my whole point of why a Mac is not over priced.


Regardless is right...we shouldn't be arguing on the usefulness of a type of wifi. The rest of the conversation give TS both sides of the argument, but this...notsomuch. 



> This makes no sense, no laptop comes with any of that standard.  Maybe the high end Sager laptops that have two hard drives in them, but those are meant for gaming and not a very practical laptop.  By definition a laptop is a mobile computer, and battery life is suppose to last a long time.  The only thing Apple has yet to adopt is bluray.  That does suck for Apple customers.  However, apple has HDMI out, which includes 7.1 audio, on every single computer they make.  They also have optical audio out.  Can support up to 8gigs of RAM, oh and they can also support 500gig SSD drives (if you want to drop $1500 on a 500gig SSD drive that is).   Every laptop has a numpad, unless you are talking about a separate num pad on the side?    Over clocking on the fly is the dumbest feature for a laptop, sorry not buying it.


Certain models of the G73 come with all of that standard. I can't find the one with the blu-ray drive, but this one has everything else:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834220704

Yes, I was talking about a separate numpad. No, overclocking is not a dumb feature. Not for this laptop's intended purpose.

I'm comparing this as a gaming rig because it was built for gamers. The G-series' full title is Republic of Gamers. I'm comparing it to a niche market because it was built for one.



> What?  That doesn't make any sense.  OK, I will give you this.  You are rendering a giant file in say Maya, OK, yeah it will render faster with i9, but the Macbook Pro has an i5 in it.  I don't get where you get this 30% faster crap, plus Windows is the WORST operating system in the world when it comes to managing resources.  It takes more memory and more CPU cycles to run Windows than it does any other OS.  That is a fact.


I was comparing hardware, not software. The GPU alone on that thing has a TDP of 50 watts, and the whole system is over a hundred, I believe. I'd be surprised if the Macbook is half that. OS/X is the icing on the cake compared to that. 

Although, since the Macbooks are all dual core, I'd be interested to see which one would actually win a cpu contest.



> So you are comparing a small niche market?  Your arguments are weak at best.  Most laptop users don't game on their laptop.  I sure as hell don't and I am a gamer.  Most laptop users want mobility.  Most laptop users who use their laptop professionally for their job (like me) want on the fly access to a mobile computer.  So what does Apple do?  They make a laptop for most users, not some niche market for gaming.  Apple did sort of go into a niche with the Macbook Air and the iPad, but the iPad is not a laptop, and not comparable.  You should compare that to eReaders and other touch screen devices.  So, for you to meet the Macbook Pros extensive and impressive battery life your solution is to buy a second battery?  Thus, raising the cost of the PC laptop you are comparing.


Again, yes, I'm comparing a niche market because it was built for a niche market. And yes...to raise battery life, a second battery would seem the most obvious solution, wouldn't it? That, or an external battery. Regardless, the Mac is _built_ for battery life. It uses much the same design philosophy as netbooks, having small, fairly low-power components and a comparatively large battery. I don't see any gaming laptop ever competing against that.



> It was a model that came with a triple license of software which is why I chose it over the other ones they were looking at.  I actually tried getting them a Mac, but they wanted to save $200 by getting the Sony.  It came with licenses for XP Pro, Vista and 7 business.  It was right before 7 came out so if you bought it you got the free 7 upgrade my mailing something in to Sony.  I chose that one because I knew XP was getting old, and I hated Vista and was hoping 7 would be leaps and bounds better.  I have no clue if it was made of recycled stuff, and this was like maybe a year or even two years ago.  Hard to gauge when that was.


Are you trying to venerate it or justify it? Personally I think having a recycled shell is a good thing. 



> Hold a cigarette lighter to plastic and then to aluminum, see which permanently deforms first.


Well of course aluminum holds up to heat better. However, it does not hold up so well to other types of wear. Exactly which ones depends on the plastic.



> [*]You can't really use car analogies for computers either, but I get your point.  If I were to buy a PC laptop today, I would go buy a Lenovo or an Asus, as I think they are good machines.  My whole point the whole time in every thread though, is that you cannot compare the two, because you have to add so many extra features to the PC to make it comparable to the Macbook pro.  Yes, it being 5lbs and under 1 inch thick are huge features.  Most users want light weight and portable laptops.  Some days I have several meetings across town in different locations.  I don't want to haul around some heavy thick ass laptop, which battery only lasts 2 hours (meaning every time I relocate I gotta recharge) and it runs loud because of the massive cooling it needs.  Take a loud computer into a meeting, people will get sick of you pretty quickly.  You keep comparing everything to gamers.  Gaming laptops have a niche market, and guess what, people don't typically buy gaming laptops for professional use.  They buy Macs or they buy business class laptops, which are light weight, and have longer battery life.  If you want to compare your Asus, you need to find one with in spec of the Mac, including size and weight.  Then compare specs, and last price and adjust pricing for whatever features either lack over the other.  This is what I do and I get called a fan boy because I try to make a non biased opinion on the comparison.  Where as you don't use facts, use niche market devices and come up short when I ask you to match it feature to feature and spec to spec.


Again, this is a gaming laptop, and I'm not comparing it apples-to-apples. There aren't many manufacturers that have models out which follow the Macbook's design philosophy. My entire point is that it is of equal caliber, not of equal performance.



> Sudden Motion Sensor is not just for hard drives.  There is a freaking API to access and control it.  Please read up on it.  The Accelerometer is part of the system which makes up the SMS.  SMS was originally designed to shut off hard drives if sudden motion was detected (like a drop) and thus protect your data from physical damage of the hard disk.  The fact that there is an API for it, means you can develop for it, and yes it is still part of the SMS.  I have no idea why you are even trying to correct me on this.


None of those programs disengage the hard drives, do they? Unless the term has been scaled back to simply identify the sensors associated with SMS, then those programs use, at best, only part of the described system. If that is the case, then I concede the point.


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## tlarkin

> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834220704



This is more comparable for sure, not one of those sub $1,000 laptops which is what you linked in the previous thread.  I think the last thread you linked a laptop that was $900 and tried comparing it to the 15" MBP.

This is more comparable, though there are some aspects that do not make it quite comparable.   I'd agree that while comparable, not quite the same market.

As for the SMS thing, other companies have their own version of SMS, SMS is the hardware technology, the software (or firmware) that is coded for SMS turns the HD off and stops it from spinning.  IBM/Lenovo, Acer, and HP are the only other companies that I know that boast such technologies in laptops, and they all call it something different.


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## Drenlin

Wait...huh? The one I was talking about initially is a $1200 G73 made for Best Buy:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Asus+-+...lack/9741729.p?id=1218165344675&skuId=9741729

Same thing, as the other one, but with less RAM, a lower spec screen and webcam, and I think no bluetooth. I can see why we were disagreeing if you thought I was talking about a sub $1k machine... :/


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## tlarkin

Drenlin said:


> Wait...huh? The one I was talking about initially is a $1200 G73 made for Best Buy:
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Asus+-+...lack/9741729.p?id=1218165344675&skuId=9741729
> 
> Same thing, as the other one, but with less RAM, a lower spec screen and webcam, and I think no bluetooth. I can see why we were disagreeing if you thought I was talking about a sub $1k machine... :/



Yes, but that one is still not quite comparable.  You would have to add features to it, and well it would need to drop an inch in size.


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## BettinaFJ

*Oh, I'll reply to the thread all right. *

Hi everyone. 

Thank you all for a hot and hearty discussion. 

I appreciate the fact that some of you actually took it seriously, and that you supported your arguments - and it was great that some valid arguments were finally provoked. (tlarkin, you rock for making this more than a fight between 'I like PCs better because they are cheap and never break' and 'I like Macs better because they rock' - Thank you!) 

I'll probably look the thread over once more before making my final decision, though I think I know what I want already. 

Cheers, 

Bettina.


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## tlarkin

BettinaFJ said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> Thank you all for a hot and hearty discussion.
> 
> I appreciate the fact that some of you actually took it seriously, and that you supported your arguments - and it was great that some valid arguments were finally provoked. (tlarkin, you rock for making this more than a fight between 'I like PCs better because they are cheap and never break' and 'I like Macs better because they rock' - Thank you!)
> 
> I'll probably look the thread over once more before making my final decision, though I think I know what I want already.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Bettina.



Been a PC user for a very long time now (20ish years) and a Mac users for about 10 years, and I hate the argument that Macs are over priced.  I never even brought up the resell value aspect.  You can sell a Mac that is 1 year old for about 10 to 15% less than you paid for it.  So you get more return on your investment.

It all comes down to personal opinion and preference on what you want to do and what you prefer.  I can tell you though, there isn't much a PC can do that a Mac can't, especially since a Mac can run Windows if need be.

Let us know what you pick since we all put a lot of time in our geeky arguments on your thread!


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## Geoff

tlarkin, you would have a field day over on facepunch.  There is a Mac vs PC thread and the arguments against Mac are even more juvenile.  People are saying "Let's have a right click contest.  PC wins." and "Mac's have over saturated screens and makes it hard to see fine detail".


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## Geoff

basumayra0910 said:


> oh dude ...
> 
> 
> pf course ...
> 
> 
> you should go ....
> 
> 
> its a real brand .....   :good:


I hate people like you who post this spam.


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## BettinaFJ

Okay, my mind is made up. 
I'm going Mac. Just need to talk to my bank about my savings account first. 
Once more, thanks for all of your time and effort, I really appreciate it. 

B.


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