# Must a subwoofer be on the ground?



## Kenji

Hi

I wanna buy the Logitech Z-5500 5.1 Sound System. The subwoofer of this system is HUGE. There's not enough space to place it on the ground because of my stupid desk and cables. Is it possible to put this monster on the desk or on any furniture? I think its not nice if you have a subwoofer on the height of your ears, is it?
And how about the desk, won't it "walk" away with those vibrations?

Yours
Kenji


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## awildgoose

Ok well, the thing about bass, it doesn't matter where you put it in the room you will be able to here it the same. But yes, 5.1 subs should be on the ground as if you play enough bass it will vibrate off.


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## Kenji

Ok. I had an idea. I will try to remove the drawers to make space. I hope it works...


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## awildgoose

Do what you want. Also, what were you going to put it on, you mentioned furniture but furniture covers a lot of objects.


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## Candy

Putting it on furniture/desk is not a good idea because as you said, it will "walk" across the desk, it did with mine and its a tiny sub compared to the one your getting.



awildgoose said:


> Ok well, the thing about bass, it doesn't matter where you put it in the room you will be able to here it the same. But yes, 5.1 subs should be on the ground as if you play enough bass it will vibrate off.



Sorry but I beg to differ. I used to have my sub on my desk and was told to put it on the ground, its under my desk now and is sort of enclosed between the top of my draws, my closet and the wall (like a cube with two sides open). It sounds way better.


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## Kenji

Just take care of air supply and heat if you have enclosed it like that...


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## awildgoose

Candy said:


> Putting it on furniture/desk is not a good idea because as you said, it will "walk" across the desk, it did with mine and its a tiny sub compared to the one your getting.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry but I beg to differ. I used to have my sub on my desk and was told to put it on the ground, its under my desk now and is sort of enclosed between the top of my draws, my closet and the wall (like a cube with two sides open). It sounds way better.



Alright then. Well I have most of my sound system knowledge from the countless systems me and my brother have installed in cars (we do a really good job too, not like the "professionals" at Brisbane car sound, gr they make me mad) and it doesn't matter where you put it in a car I guess. I just took that and put it into this context. Also the sub, I didn't take a good look at the pictures, but does it have the air hole in the side or not? 
And are you going for SQL (sound quality) and Volume?


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## Candy

Kenji said:


> Just take care of air supply and heat if you have enclosed it like that...



There's still plenty of space around it so its not a problem. I wouldnt do it with a big sub though.


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## awildgoose

Candy said:


> There's still plenty of space around it so its not a problem. I wouldnt do it with a *bit *sub though.



Bit sub? Ok I'm just going to assume you mean big, so I ask why not?
If it's a room problem then sure, but bigger is always better, except for the 8in subs that Alpine (I think Alpine) bought out. They are pro.


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## Candy

awildgoose said:


> Alright then. Well I have most of my sound system knowledge from the countless systems me and my brother have installed in cars (we do a really good job too, not like the "professionals" at Brisbane car sound, gr they make me mad) and it doesn't matter where you put it in a car I guess. I just took that and put it into this context. Also the sub, I didn't take a good look at the pictures, but does it have the air hole in the side or not?
> And are you going for SQL (sound quality) and Volume?



I dont doubt you know what your talking about. Bass does travel through things easily so it wouldnt make that much difference in a car. I just noticed when I moved mine it had a deeper bass whereas when it was on my desk it was more of a thumping bass (if that makes sense). It might be worth mentioning my floor is carpeted so that might make a difference?


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## Candy

awildgoose said:


> Bit sub? Ok I'm just going to assume you mean big, so I ask why not?
> If it's a room problem then sure, but bigger is always better, except for the 8in subs that Alpine (I think Alpine) bought out. They are pro.



Yeah I meant big.
Because its right under my draws on the desk and it would just rattle everything inside the draws making an awful sound. Also a bigger one wouldnt fit there.


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## realmike15

subwoofers should always be placed on the ground for optimum performance.  placing it on something will almost always cause the object it's on to absorb some of that sound, which can cause a whole host issues and effect performance.

if it's a good subwoofer (the kind that can fill a room), find a spot in your room where it does fit.  the frequencies a subwoofer produces can not be detected in an audible space, meaning no matter where it's placed you won't really be able to tell where it's coming from.  near a wall will give you good bass response and placement in a corner will give you even more response.


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## tlarkin

You could place one on the seat of your chair for optimal experience!


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## Zatharus

Candy said:


> ...I just noticed when I moved mine it had a deeper bass whereas when it was on my desk it was more of a thumping bass (if that makes sense)...



This is due to standing waves.  As you position the speaker differently in a listening space, the reflected waveforms add and subtract from each other in different spatial locations as well as by different amounts.  Low frequency standing waves can be the most troublesome in this regard.

Speaker position can make a huge difference in most circumstances.


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## Motoxrdude

mightymilk said:


> subwoofers should always be placed on the ground for optimum performance.  placing it on something will almost always cause the object it's on to absorb some of that sound, which can cause a whole host issues and effect performance.
> 
> if it's a good subwoofer (the kind that can fill a room), find a spot in your room where it does fit.  the frequencies a subwoofer produces can not be detected in an audible space, meaning no matter where it's placed you won't really be able to tell where it's coming from.  near a wall will give you good bass response and placement in a corner will give you even more response.


Carpet absorbs more sound then any household surface would  You should still place the sub on the floor because it will rattle like non other if you have it on a solid surface.



awildgoose said:


> Alright then. Well I have most of my sound system knowledge from the countless systems me and my brother have installed in cars (we do a really good job too, not like the "professionals" at Brisbane car sound, gr they make me mad) and it doesn't matter where you put it in a car I guess. I just took that and put it into this context. Also the sub, I didn't take a good look at the pictures, but does it have the air hole in the side or not?
> And are you going for SQL (sound quality) and Volume?


Wrong, lol. Sub placement does matter in a car. Take a sub and put it in the back seat. Now stick it in the very back and tell me the difference.

O and btw, SQL != sound quality. SQ is sound quality, SPL is volume, and SQL is sound quality and volume.


awildgoose said:


> Bit sub? Ok I'm just going to assume you mean big, so I ask why not?
> If it's a room problem then sure, but bigger is always better, except for the 8in subs that Alpine (I think Alpine) bought out. They are pro.


Wrong again, bigger is not always better. No offense, but you shouldn't be giving advice about audio.


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## Zatharus

Motoxrdude said:


> Carpet absorbs more sound then any household surface would  ...



I have some ceiling tiles and wall panels that have a higher sound absorption coefficient than most carpets and carpet padding.  Also, carpet won't stop a subwoofer's low frequencies.  They will bounce off just fine...


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## Motoxrdude

Zatharus said:


> I have some ceiling tiles and wall panels that have a higher sound absorption coefficient than most carpets and carpet padding.  Also, carpet won't stop a subwoofer's low frequencies.  They will bounce off just fine...



Lol. Not quite. You are saying drywall absorbs more sound then carpet? hmmm


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## Zatharus

Motoxrdude said:


> Lol. Not quite. You are saying drywall absorbs more sound then carpet? hmmm



Drywall?  I did not say drywall.  No, these are fiberglass wall panels and ceiling tiles. 

Proper drywall can be an excellent sound isolation material though - much more so than carpet.  So can cinder blocks.  An air gap is your best bet, but I digress.


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## Motoxrdude

Zatharus said:


> Drywall?  I did not say drywall.  No, these are fiberglass wall panels and ceiling tiles.
> 
> Proper drywall can be an excellent sound isolation material though - much more so than carpet.  So can cinder blocks.  An air gap is your best bet, but I digress.



O awesome. Yeah i just assumed drywall because it's in 99% of all houses.

Drywall doesn't insulate sound very well. And an air gap won't do anything at all, lol. There is a huge air gap between me and my speakers, and I can hear them loud and clear  Regardless though, carpet won't reflect sound like glass or hardwood does.

But to get back on subject, putting the subwoofer on carpet is your best bet. Any hard surface will make for a not-so-nice sound (ie it will vibrate like none other).


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## Zatharus

Motoxrdude said:


> ...Drywall doesn't insulate sound very well. And an air gap won't do anything at all, lol. There is a huge air gap between me and my speakers, and I can hear them loud and clear  Regardless though, carpet won't reflect sound like glass or hardwood does.



Heh heh - I take it you haven't done any sound isolation before?  A gap of air between two stiff surfaces will tremendously reduce sound transmission.  Sound waves travel much more efficiently in dense media (i.e. walls, floors, water, etc...).  When you have that air gap, very little sound energy is transmitted.  If you want to isolate further, add another gap.

The most isolated sound rooms are literally suspended within another room.




> But to get back on subject, putting the subwoofer on carpet is your best bet. Any hard surface will make for a not-so-nice sound (ie it will vibrate like none other).


True, unless you have nice soft pads for the feet/bottom of the sub to reduce the rattling noise of it bouncing up and down.


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## Motoxrdude

Zatharus said:


> I take it you haven't done any sound isolation before?  A gap of air between two stiff surfaces will tremendously reduce sound transmission.  Sound waves travel much more efficiently in dense media (i.e. walls, floors, etc...).  When you have that air gap, very little sound energy is transmitted.  If you want to isolate further, add another gap.
> 
> The most isolated sound rooms are literally suspended within another room.


Nope, my experiences of sound insulation stops after dynomat and soundboard.

Look, all I am saying is that I think a subwoofer would sound better on carpet then hardwood. Go into a room with hardwood floors and bare walls. Now clap your hands. Then go into a room with carpeted floors and a textured ceiling. Now clap your hands and compare the two results. I don't know why you feel the need to contradict me. I mean, it's not like I am lying to you.


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## realmike15

Motoxrdude said:


> Carpet absorbs more sound then any household surface would  You should still place the sub on the floor because it will rattle like non other if you have it on a solid surface.



if he places the sub on his desk, and than places it on the floor... he will achieve better bass response on the floor than his desk.  whether carpet is involved or not.



Motoxrdude said:


> Wrong, lol. Sub placement does matter in a car. Take a sub and put it in the back seat. Now stick it in the very back and tell me the difference.
> 
> O and btw, SQL != sound quality. SQ is sound quality, SPL is volume, and SQL is sound quality and volume.


agreed



Motoxrdude said:


> Wrong again, bigger is not always better. No offense, but you shouldn't be giving advice about audio.


agreed again... the driver and the porting will have a much more profound effect will effect the bass response just as much as the size of the speaker.  a well tuned 8" can sound deeper and cleaner, than a poorly ported 15"


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## Motoxrdude

mightymilk said:


> agreed again... the driver and the porting will have a much more profound effect will effect the bass response just as much as the size of the speaker.  a well tuned 8" can sound deeper and cleaner, than a poorly ported 15"


O for sure. The box is everything. Also the bigger sub you go, generally the more SPL you gain, but you lose SQ. If you get a 10" that has some good excursion, it will sound nice and hit those lows.


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## realmike15

Motoxrdude said:


> O for sure. The box is everything. Also the bigger sub you go, generally the more SPL you gain, but you lose SQ. If you get a 10" that has some good excursion, it will sound nice and hit those lows.



absolutely i agree, the only exception being ultra high end subwoofers
http://www.wilsonaudio.com/product/thor/background.php
*drool*

unfortunately, i doubt anyone here could afford a proper setup of these.


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## Zatharus

Motoxrdude said:


> Nope, my experiences of sound insulation stops after dynomat and soundboard.
> 
> Look, all I am saying is that I think a subwoofer would sound better on carpet then hardwood. Go into a room with hardwood floors and bare walls. Now clap your hands. Then go into a room with carpeted floors and a textured ceiling. Now clap your hands and compare the two results. I don't know why you feel the need to contradict me. I mean, it's not like I am lying to you.



No, I don't think you are lying to me.  

I was trying to point out that the material used in this case would have little impact on the sound of the sub.  The high energy low frequency waves put out by a subwoofer will not be affected much by those materials.  LF sound waves are very pervasive.  I, too, think you would be better off placing the sub on an insulated/soft surface, but for the practical reason of reducing the cabinet to surface clatter.

All you are hearing when you clap your hands in the two rooms mentioned above is the difference in high frequency transient response.  You can't judge the bass response from that.  The bass response of those two rooms will change very little if they are the same dimensions and the substrate materials are the same (baseboard/wallboard).


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## Motoxrdude

Zatharus said:


> All you are hearing when you clap your hands in the two rooms mentioned above is the difference in high frequency transient response.  You can't judge the bass response from that.  The bass response of those two rooms will change very little if they are the same dimensions and the substrate materials are the same (baseboard/wallboard).



Ok, run your subwoofer on a hardwood floor. It's not me that has to listen to it.


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