# BUSH or KELLY?



## smitherz (Nov 5, 2004)

BUSH or KELLY?


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## Lorand (Nov 5, 2004)

You're talking about 2008's election?


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## ian (Nov 5, 2004)

cant be 2008 election, because I thought in america, a president can serve a maximum of 2 terms...


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## Lorand (Nov 5, 2004)

Yes, but it could be another Bush...


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## ahajv4life (Nov 5, 2004)

bush twins????


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## Lorand (Nov 5, 2004)

Why not? Everything is possible in the US...


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## TheChef (Nov 5, 2004)

Does he mean Kerry?


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## Lorand (Nov 5, 2004)

I think so...
Anyway, this thread is as confusing as a missing Florida ballot.


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## smitherz (Nov 5, 2004)

sorry i meant who do you prefer? and sorry again i did mean kerry, well....... its not like i am supposed to get it right because i am from England.


smitherz


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## Lorand (Nov 5, 2004)

Does it matter now after that idiot got reelected? But I don't like Kerry either...


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## Greg J. (Nov 6, 2004)

*I don't like Bush because...*

I don't enjoy Bush's policies on education.  No Child Left Behind?  You mean everychild left behind.  Bush's bill has increased the graduate requirement of high schools to be 95% or bust.  Although it sounds good, it will be hard, considering our funding is GONE.  My school has a graduation rate of 92%, the BEST high school in Nebraska (Lincoln East).  I feel sorry for the other schools and other students.  Money?  I haven't seen a dime's raise to teachers' pay since I was in 8th grade.  Outsourcing because of the U.S.'s economy?  Forever there.  Why?  When I go to college and become a computer design engineer graduate, and go out into the world, most of the computer tech jobs may be in India and China.  How am I supposed to get a real job?  My own people getting paid chump change to be the person on an assembly line, putting together Gateway computers and being a tech support robot.     And NO, there aren't any weps a' masuStruction in I r a  -q, perhaps in Iran.  And yes, Bush should have LET the weps inspectors stay in the Middle East (the whole point of weps " " " ").  So, you ask yourself, why?  Why all this?  Why kill innocent children?  Why are our boys killing innocents?  Sometimes purposfully, sometimes on accident.  Well, I'll leave you to your own thoughts.


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## RiseandTakeOver (Nov 6, 2004)

ian said:
			
		

> cant be 2008 election, because I thought in america, a president can serve a maximum of 2 terms...



4 years boss



			
				Greg J said:
			
		

> I don't enjoy Bush's policies on education. No Child Left Behind? You mean everychild left behind. Bush's bill has increased the graduate requirement of high schools to be 95% or bust. Although it sounds good, it will be hard, considering our funding is GONE. My school has a graduation rate of 92%, the BEST high school in Nebraska (Lincoln East). I feel sorry for the other schools and other students. Money? I haven't seen a dime's raise to teachers' pay since I was in 8th grade. Outsourcing because of the U.S.'s economy? Forever there. Why? When I go to college and become a computer design engineer graduate, and go out into the world, most of the computer tech jobs may be in India and China. How am I supposed to get a real job? My own people getting paid chump change to be the person on an assembly line, putting together Gateway computers and being a tech support robot. And NO, there aren't any weps a' masuStruction in I r a -q, perhaps in Iran. And yes, Bush should have LET the weps inspectors stay in the Middle East (the whole point of weps " " " "). So, you ask yourself, why? Why all this? Why kill innocent children? Why are our boys killing innocents? Sometimes purposfully, sometimes on accident. Well, I'll leave you to your own thoughts.



Ya know what really pissed me off about bush is that he is such a fuc*ing liar. During the republican convention, he has this long speech about how gay marriages are evil and shit.. then on 60 minutes right before the election he's like "I support gay marriage!"  

Also, during his 2004 campaign he bashed kerry for being a "flip-flopper".. kerry was for a war that would be PROPERLY FUNDED AND PROPERlY PLANNED.. we rush into iraq with 100,000 troops with barely any armor or bullets.. now we are shit outta luck...

Also, bush ran in his campaign about how kerry voted against the bill that would give money to the military for armor and weaponry. I saw the bill, this is how the money would be distributed ::
    $5 million = Weaponry (the M-16MK2s used by American soldiers cost           $350,000 each. the ammunition for this costs $50,000 per box)
    $15 Million = Armor (armoring ONE humvee is about $500000)
    $8 Billion = Contract for Halliburton

Hmm... a bill that proposes giving about 10 guns to the military and 30 armored humvees. Oh... and that $8 billion contract so that halliburton can harvest the oil from the region after we are done abolishing it...


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## Sparticle (Nov 6, 2004)

*Kerry*

I just turned 18 not too long ago, and this was my forst time voting.  I chose to vote for Kerry, because of a few reasons.  I didn't like the way Bush has been handeling the war in Iraq, and the way he rushed the U.S. into it without conclusive evidence of WMD.  I am sort of a moderate in my point of view about things (or at least I think), but if I have to make a choice, I suppose that I will take the Democratic side on most issues, not Republican.  I am for things like stem cell reserach, and gay marriage, and therefore voted for Kerry.


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## 4W4K3 (Nov 6, 2004)

neither...


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## kof2000 (Nov 6, 2004)

who's kelly?


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## 4W4K3 (Nov 6, 2004)

I agree with GregJ and Rise about the "no child left behind". It has tore my skool's budget to pieces along with the "robin hood" program we are forced to do. with all the money we give away to other skools in Texas, we are going in debt. We used to be one of the most top rated skools in Texas, now students in El Paso are worth more than we are per student (every student is worth so much on average, depending on the skool) we can't afford simple things like kleenex, our teachers have i think 2000 copies a tri max (that's 12 weeks / ~200+students a day) that doesn't work at all. it's just like the taxing,rob the rich and give to the poor...so the rich become poor and the poor have too much money to know what to do with.


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## Dsk954 (Nov 7, 2004)

Could be Jeb       Anywhoo, I went with Bush in 2004 and if the democrats send another retarted man who has no real ability to give a straight answer to anything, I will go with a Bush in 2008


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## RiseandTakeOver (Nov 7, 2004)

Dsk954 said:
			
		

> Could be Jeb       Anywhoo, I went with Bush in 2004 and if the democrats send another retarted man who has no real ability to give a straight answer to anything, I will go with a Bush in 2008



uh.. ryte.. actually i heard a straight answer to pretty much everything... now for bush.. "how do you plan to salvage IRaq" answer = "IRAQ IS FINE!" yea.. uh huh.. thats why we've lost more ppl here in the first year then we did in the first year of vietnam... oh and i especially like the part where bush won't give a straight answer on gay marriage.. and ya kno another thing that i like about bush.. how he is so ****ing relentlessely stupid.. "Mr. President, what do you think will happen if Kerry is elected in November?" "That's not gonna happen." so tell me.. how is this a straight answer... that was not the question..


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## 4W4K3 (Nov 8, 2004)

i wouldn't answer half the questions they asked the President either. they are all traps, you have to be smart enough to know what to answer and what to hint at. giving a straight answer might please the public, but flubbing up on TV and looking like an idiot is only pleasing the press.


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## RiseandTakeOver (Nov 8, 2004)

4W4K3 said:
			
		

> but flubbing up on TV and looking like an idiot is only pleasing the press.



but he did that anyway.. by being embarressed by kerry, rolling his eyes at everything anyone said, throwing his arms up.. etc... anyone who knows anything about debating knows that you don't make unneccessary motions.. like throwing your arms up.. or rolling your eyes..


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## SFR (Nov 8, 2004)

There were more than a few reasons I DID NOT vote for kerry.

First of all government controlled healthcare is one more step in the direction of communism.... (which is what the democratic party has slipped into)


A scary thought is Hillary Rodham Clinton on the democratic ticket in 2008...

YIKES!!!


and back to Kerry.... he is a huge supporter of the UN..

and sorry to burst the UN bubble.. but they arent even STRONG enough to poor salt on a snail.....  First of all by the time they pass a resolution the snail is long gone.... and second of all they DONT have the strength in numbers to poor the salt.. remember the saying:  How many monkeys does it take to screw in a light bulb?  It takes about 400,000 to create a resolution and they have about 10 people to enforce it (exagerating.... )


My point is that the UN is a joke and Kerry wanted to help build an international court... ouch that would suck...

and he never gave the american people the actual numbers of HOW HE WAS GOING TO CHANGE EVERYTHING HE SAID NEEDED TO BE CHANGED...


WOW... I love being an American but our political leaders are just not like they used to be....

Well, at this point.. when Im 30 I might run for a senate seat... and maybe the presidency at 35.


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## smadge (Nov 9, 2004)

Id vote for kelly  not because i think kerry would be a good president, but i think he would do a better job than bush(who has effectively screwed this country over) jobs are being lost, the national debt is in the trillions, iraq was and still is a mess, rights are being ignored, foreing opinion of america is bad, and now with d.c. completely controlled by republicans its hard to imagine things getting better. but really i dont know mabye bush will be good.


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## SFR (Nov 9, 2004)

smadge said:
			
		

> Id vote for kelly not because i think kerry would be a good president, but i think he would do a better job than bush(who has effectively screwed this country over) jobs are being lost, the national debt is in the trillions, iraq was and still is a mess, rights are being ignored, foreing opinion of America is bad, and now with d.c. completely controlled by republicans its hard to imagine things getting better. but really i dont know mabye bush will be good.









First off... I would rather have a little less privacy and live in a country that actively hunts out those who want to do harm to the US... secondly check out www.bls.gov  5.5% isnt great... but remember the lowest you can get is somewhere around 4% which accounts for those unable to work.....  and the whole thing about the economy and the president is a joke... there is something called an economic cycle.... when our economy grows and gets too wealthy and strong inflation begins to grow which can destroy an economy so we have to cut back with interest rates which untimely creates the lower end of that cycle.... the first BUSH gave a tax cut to the middle class at the end of his first term which ultimately caused his failure at re-election.  BUT... it created what CLINTON was able to increase in his 8 year term.. which was a growth unlike any we have seen in the US before... but at a certain point it cant keep growing (great depression ..etc...) anyway our economy EVEN in a time of war is improving day by day...



With regards to IRAQ.. I dont care what anyone outside of America has to say... remember WW2??  Everyone just let Hitler keep on going... appeasing him.... etc.... America was an isolationist country and look what happened...





lets not let that happen again!  History will look back.. and I think.. consider what we did, the right thing.. NOW BECAUSE OF TERRORISTS IRAQ is a mess.. once again the world is backing away to terrorism.. hmmm..


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## Verrona (Nov 9, 2004)

They are bloody cousins Kelly n Bush. N they are both w******. They are as bad as each other!! I'm glad bush won, Kelly was arrogant!! Not that Bush wasn't... just that my emails slagging bush off would have 2 change 2 Kelly. Which would piss me off cos i got some emails.


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## Verrona (Nov 9, 2004)

some good emails sorry*


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## Super_Nova (Nov 9, 2004)

I voted for W. Besides believing he is a good president 
i really do care about moral issues. Kerry came across to me as a very dishonest and snake like person. I couldn't believe a thing he said and some of the things he said actually made me a little angry. I'm glad it's over though.


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## zkiller (Nov 9, 2004)

kerry talked a lot, but didn't really have much of a plan for anything. having lived many years in germany, i use it for a cross reference for other places to compare policies. take it from someone who knows and suffers from the consequences. goverment funded healthcare does not work! yes, it is nice to know i get healthcare when i need it, but due to it not working, i pay more taxes and my first visit to the doctors offices in a months time, costs me 20 bucks just for him to see me. then, if i need a perscription, i still pay a good bit for that to the pharmacy. yet, about 350 USD a month are deducted from my paycheck each month not including other taxes which ultimatly get raised as well to help fill wholes in the financing for such a venture, amongst others. 

also, people in america really don't know what high unemployment means! germany has   over 4.2 mil. unemployed individuals listed. this does not included the homeless and is still over 10% of the countries listed population. also, it's getting worse...

i am not saying that bush is a great president, nor do i claim to be a bush fan, but kerry is by far not a man i would have chosen to represent myself and my peares (sp?). many would say it was a matter of chosing the lesser evil, but honestly, i don't find bush evil, however, i do precieve him as a bit of a cowboy. he does as he says in  most cases and iraq is a good example for this. kerry on the other hand did not make a trustworthy impression to me. 

btw, i am not a republican, nor a democrat, i reside in the gray area.


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## zkiller (Nov 9, 2004)

please excuse my bad spelling and messed up sentences, it's late, i'm tire and just got home from a long day at work.


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## SFR (Nov 10, 2004)

zkiller dont worry about the spelling...  all of us make mistakes with spelling every once and awhile...



You make some great points aswell.  5.5% unemployment in our country is great....  what democrats argue over is like .5% anyways....


What we need is to get rid of welfare and illegal people in the US who takes jobs away from others.... and THE PEOPLE THAT WERE ON WELFARE... do the jobs that the illegal people were doing....


then... the people on welfare who are taking OUR TAX MONEY and not doing anything will make money AND PAY TAXES and those who work illegally and TAKE OUR TAX MONEY but DO NOT PAY TAXES will be gone... and walla!!  un-employment DOWN... taxes LOWERED (or at least that tax money starting to pay down the rent)  etc....


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## ian (Nov 10, 2004)

zkiller said:
			
		

> goverment funded healthcare does not work!


we have government funded healthcare here in Australia and it works marvellously. America always strikes me as a country which looks out for the rich, and those who fall on hard times do it tough...


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## SFR (Nov 10, 2004)

Frankly, I wish you were right... but you are not. Instead 10% of my salary goes to the federal government and - Im not sure the percentage - goes to my state...

Much of that goes into the welfare system and we pay for social security, medicare etc...

..none of which really work... 


anyway... thats what you get when you live in a capitalist society.



I guess my point, in response to your post Ian is that the philosophy of the US, or at least one of them, is that not everything should be government run.

Our private sector has the ability to do things better because of competition etc.. which can only exist when not being run by the government.


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## ian (Nov 10, 2004)

SFR said:
			
		

> Frankly, I wish you were right... but you are not. Instead 10% of my salary goes to the federal government and - Im not sure the percentage - goes to my state....


Here the top tax rate is around 47% or something like that, mind you it is a progressive tax system, the more you earn, the higher rate you pay.


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## SFR (Nov 10, 2004)

hmmm...

Over here the top 1% pay 86% of the taxes.
..which has to be a crap load of money!

The reason I only pay 10% to the federal gov is because I have nothing to declare... I do however, have a few deductions that lower my taxes. (and I dont make very much money)

I actually am in favor of getting rid of income tax and instead having a flat sales tax rate (maybe 15%)  ...first of all... My weekly paychecks would not drop from $750 (US currency) to about $450 (there is also social security... union dues... state taxes... and workers comp all take out of each check but about $75 a week but that is $3900 a year taken out....


My previous post was a little bit stupid (forgive me... long day at work....)


Now that I have to go to school... I think I will get on the boards later and try and explain everything a little bit better....


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## 4W4K3 (Nov 11, 2004)

Greg J. said:
			
		

> I would rather have all rights and freedoms of the U.S.  I do NOT want privacy invasions because I'm NOT scared of t e rr or  is ts.  All this fear-mongering crap has been buggin' me.  I ain't scared.  So, all this t er ror crap doesn't matter to me.  I believe Kerry's plan for education could've helped my school (and many others) to actually HAVE a budjet.



would you be scared of a terrorist if he shot your family and said you were next? alot of people think they are SOOO distant from the actual war, like they're not affected by it. i feel the same way at times, i'm focusing on my social life while men are dying across the world...hardly seems realistic for me to worry about my own butt right? but then i remember my uncle who is over there fighting right now, and how if i knew he was being held hostage, or i was contacted and told he was shot and killed...i'd be right in the middle of things...the war would definetly affect me and my life here in lil' coppell, TX. true i'm not "scared" of a terrorist as of now...but if the worst happened and i was to get involved i would definetly be scared for my family, loved ones, and myself.

but i do agree with you about kerry's education plan...my skool has suffered alot, to the point where we have 5 geometry books for 200+ kids...not enough $$$$ to get any more. so my teacher scans the homework out of the book and we do it, but now there telling her she is using too much paper and limit her to 2000 copies a tri (hardly enough). something needs to be done, otherwise we will be doing our homework on the internet (which i hate, and other are not able to do)


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## SFR (Nov 11, 2004)

state and local gov has more control of the educational system in america than the federal gov..



it is up to the state to ask for federal help.. etc...





as for privacy vs. security... this debate is one of the defining ones throughout history...



I personally lost 2 friends in the attacks of 9/11 ... at the time of the '93 WTC bombing I remember even at the age of 9 talking and having a debate in school on this subject..





I still feel that waiting in lines and being searched at the airport is worth protecting my country. I feel that the patriot act - which limits the rights of those we think are terrorists - is worth protecting my family's life.



I also believe strongly that the reason the federal education budget (along with other federally funded initiatives) is so LOW is because there is a large portion of our taxes going to welfare. My opinion on this is quite simple. Everyone who is abusing welfare and not looking for a job can get a job. There are millions of illegal aliens from many countries in the US taking these jobs... and not PAYING TAXES.. if we enforce our immigration laws we can NOT ONLY MAKE OUR COUNTRY more secure from terrorists.. which is a very real threat..... BUT WE can make the welfare abusers get off their asses and take those jobs left by the illegal aliens.


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## Greg J. (Nov 12, 2004)

*Yes*

Yes, you do have good points about debates and those known to you that have died (and the abusers of the system).  It's true that our nation is constantly changing.  The new generation is here (and another may be coming).  What do you think the U.S. will be like in the future (say 20 or so years from now?)  I'm curious because we're heading into a new age and things are a-changin'!  It is incredible in terms of technology, races, and population.


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## SFR (Nov 12, 2004)

I am 20 years old. People of my generation (dubbed Generation X - I think Im a few years younger than them... anyway) we are the fast pace... get everything done faster... generation...


.... I know when I am on a computer I run through screens at a faster pace than my dad. My generation has a shorter attention span etc... Our emotion IQ is a lot less. We cram so many things into our schedules...


I bring these things up, because this is the world we live in. Technology's purpose is to speed things up. Businesses want MORE thing accomplished in less time with less of a WORKFORCE.

At home we multitask like CRAZY!


I see (at least in the educated world) this concept evolving. We are in a world that is changing rapidly. The past 100 or so years our world has changed technology wise - sciences, mathmatics, inventions... from the moon to mars .. hubble is still going... 

I see, escpecially in America, the speed at which we live our daily lives only growing and expanding.


I am working on a Bachlors of Science in computer software engineering.

I am learning everything from C to J# to unix to SQL and oracle and XML and ADA/ADO and PHP and Perl and so on and so on.. blah..blah..blah

THe working world has become a different animal entirly.

IN PAST GENERATIONS a man (or woman) had a SPECIFIC trade.. He or she mastered that trade and that is all they needed.

TODAY, we cant do that. I, as a future software engineer, cant just know one program.. furthermore I cant just know about software.. I have to learn network priciples... the basics of hardware and a bunch of other things.

Our world (computers) is about knowing as much as you can ON AS MANY TOPICS as you can.



ON THE POLITIC side of our country.

I am a registered Republican. I am a moderate.


I do not venture to far in either directions when it comes to opinions on the topics this country mainly focuses on.


I do have certain opinions on the future of our AMERICA and the rest of the world.



Take for example what Colin Powell just did. Do we want ILLEGAL aliens in our country? DO we want them making money and NOT PAYING TAXES? (and to answer the question: Well who would do these jobs if the illegals didnt do them? ANSWER: THE MEN AND WOMEN ON WELFARE... who ABUSE it! who sit at home collecting checks... the SAME MONEY I WORKED FOR! ... )

...anyway .. SFR say on topic!...



This country is getting away from its roots.. Look at what most of the VOTING america said was their NUMBER ONE ISSUE in choosing who and what they voted for: MORAL ISSUES

not the war, not the economy.. the MORALS.

I supported Bush's decision to attack Iraq. I supported him when HE TOLD AMERICA AFTER 9/11 THAT HE WILL SEEK OUT TERRORISTS WHEREVER THEY MIGHT BE. Whether they are in a cave or in a palace... he will seek them out and end their raign of terror.

Saddam Hussein is a murderer. He is a terrorist. Whether he had a DIRECT connect to the SPECIFIC attacks of 9/11 or not... He has funded the PLO. HAMAS Kuwait etc... He has terrorized Israel and HIS OWN people (remember the Kurds?) !

Our country needs to secure our borders (which legalizing illegal men and women in our country undermines)


If you are wondering why I have spent so much time answering your question of the future of america ON who is IN OUR COUNTRY ILLEGALLY and THE SPEED AT WHICH ALL OF US LIVE OUR DAILY LIVES... it is because these are the two factors that will change the path I SEE AMERICA taking.


I also think Moral values is an issue..

I am 100% behind our first ammendment. I think HOWARD STERN has every right to say whatever he wants on the radio..

But is it morally right? When I raise my children do I want them listening to something like that? ...and with the speed at which we live our lives.. AM I GOING to have the time to control what my children see and listen too?


So... to try and summarize the answer of what THE U.S.A. will be like in 20 or 25 years. I HOPE we will have rooted out the majority of terrorism on EARTH, I HOPE some of the EUROPEAN countries will OPEN UP A HISTORY BOOK AND ACTUALLY READ IT AND SEE THE SIMILARITIES BETWEEN THEIR PAST ACTIONS AND PRESENT ONES..


I hope America will get back to being a country in which ANYONE CAN LEGALLY enter our country and live their lives without being pre judged... without having to wake up every morning and check and see if our children are still in their beds SAFE. 

I hope the world will continue to share its resources and I will be able to travel around the world without fears...


I hope we will continue to open our eyes to the amazing things on EARTH and in space....

I hope we can take care of our planet and stop trashing it



So, in the end, I just rambled on.. and found out that I DONT have an answer to your question Greg J.

Instead, I have a bunch of ideas and hopes... will the come true?

I hope.


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## Imaruki (Nov 16, 2004)

This probably doesn't have much to do with the topic, but I think it's funny and could do this for hours... http://slapthecandidate.com this is so fun.


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## Verrona (Nov 16, 2004)

Yuh i agree. I prefer Bush.

Did u know that Kerry and Bush are cousins


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## Echo_ (Nov 18, 2004)

SFR said:
			
		

> First off... I would rather have a little less privacy and live in a country that actively hunts out those who want to do harm to the US... secondly check out www.bls.gov  5.5% isnt great... but remember the lowest you can get is somewhere around 4% which accounts for those unable to work.....  and the whole thing about the economy and the president is a joke... there is something called an economic cycle.... when our economy grows and gets too wealthy and strong inflation begins to grow which can destroy an economy so we have to cut back with interest rates which untimely creates the lower end of that cycle.... the first BUSH gave a tax cut to the middle class at the end of his first term which ultimately caused his failure at re-election.  BUT... it created what CLINTON was able to increase in his 8 year term.. which was a growth unlike any we have seen in the US before... but at a certain point it cant keep growing (great depression ..etc...) anyway our economy EVEN in a time of war is improving day by day...
> 
> 
> 
> ...






about giving up freedoms for security....

thats EXACTLY what adolf hitler did...
Adolf Hitler wrote, "An evil exists that threatens every man, women and child of this great nation. We must take steps to insure our domestic security and protect our homeland". 


To quote Benjamin Franklin “They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety”.


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## 4W4K3 (Nov 18, 2004)

i would rather never see a "Bush or Kerry" thead again in my life. There on every forum i visit lol.


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## Lorand (Nov 18, 2004)

4W4K3 said:
			
		

> i would rather never see a "Bush or Kerry" thead again in my life. There on every forum i visit lol.


Me neither...  
Both Bush and Kerry are ugly idiots, I don't know why people waste so much time talking about them...


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## SFR (Nov 18, 2004)

> thats EXACTLY what adolf hitler did...
> Adolf Hitler wrote, "An evil exists that threatens every man, women and child of this great nation. We must take steps to insure our domestic security and protect our homeland".
> 
> 
> To quote Benjamin Franklin “They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety”.





>








In Ben's quote he said "essential liberty" I dont consider the freedoms of people who are in America illegally or in this country to kill us, ESSENTIAL.





and about Hitler:  Read what he said again.  And ask yourself... is this not what everyone country wants?  Then ask yourself:  How am I going to go about achieving this?

What you fail to quote him on is his desire to blame everything on everyone who was not German, and his planning and horrific execution of millions of people and the eradication of an entire race/religion.  He saw Germans in a time of crisis and used them to kill innocent people.  I CANNOT and will not consider Saddam Hussein and OSAMA BIN LADEN and THEIR FOLLOWERS INNOCENT PEOPLE!



They are murderers, PERIOD.  The Europeans that were killed at the hand of Hitler were not murderers, they were ordinary people.


 So, ... the fact that Hitler is quoted as saying evil exists and we need to insure our domestic security is a valid point.  But WHAT HE ACTUALLY DID instead is FAR different that what we are seeing today.



You comparison between what hitler said and DID and what America and my president has said and IS DOING is so incredibly far off that I am not only offended by what you said but am saddened that instead of remembering history and learning from it, you TWIST it to help continue the atrocities that this world faces today.


You need to reread a few history books and Stop taking QUOTES OUT OF CONTEXT.. LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE.. 

Look at who Hitler was and what he did and HOW he did it.


Then look at the FANATIC arabs in this world... and ask yourself if you want your country to turn out like HOLLAND...

...before you answer.. do some research on Holland and what the fanatic Arabs have done to that country.


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## zkiller (Nov 18, 2004)

hitler was a deciever. he did many things for germany that helped the country and it's people, but they also ultimately helped him full fill his plans of war, morder and world domination. 

by taking civil liberties from the people, he was capable of feeding them false information and thereby decieving them of the truth. 

that's why national security can only go so far before it becomes a problem. 

i do understand what you are trying to say, but honestly, we will never put an end to terrorism, it's just not possible. we might be able to make it harder for them, but we won't be able to put an end to it. we are trying to build ourselves an illusion of control around a problem that we will never truelly master. if we don't really have control of a car due to to many unpredictable outside factors, how can one believe to be able to control a problem so much more complex. 

i am not saying that we should just stop and not even try, but i am saying that our civil liberties are more important. 

did that make sense?


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## SFR (Nov 18, 2004)

Yes. It did.







I agree that civil liberties are VERY important. But "civil liberties" can be abused. Organizations hide and thrive under that idea and create many of the problems we see today.



Take a look at Holland. (the reason I bring this up is it is a perfect example of what America can become in a decade or less.) Radical, and I stress the word Radical (or fanatic) Arabs have been living in Holland because of its incredible LIBERAL ideas and laws. That country's laws have slowly been etched away and now the government has little control over its people.



There is a balance between OUR freedoms and the government's LAWS.





I have always been one to ULTIMATLY hold civil liberties above security. Now the question becomes: How important our many of our civil liberties?



Are you willing to give up the ability to walk into an Airport and board a plane without being searched? I am ready to give it up.



Are you willing to spend the money (tax money) on national security and on our troops (some of which are and were my friends) in Iraq and around the rest of the world? I am.







I cant cure or change anyone’s opinion on a computer forum... but all I want is for people to think. About the big picture.



Think about your family present and future.. think about the world you want them to live in.



I agree, a military state would be horrible.. and our civil liberties are important... but how important?.. and what WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO GIVE UP IN ORDER TO take just one step to make it a safer world for YOUR FAMILY?


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## zkiller (Nov 19, 2004)

trust me, the differences between the netherlands and the united states are extreme, the two can't even be compared. i can get in my car and be in amsterdam in 4 hrs or less. i know what the netherlands are all about and there problems are very close to home for me.


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## zkiller (Nov 19, 2004)

well, i just read the rest of your post. i am considered a federal law enforcement officers, as i am part of the air forces, security forces. i do not consider searches at airports and so forth to be a breach of someones privacy. we search vehicles at random every day and at times we do 100% checks, as ordered by the commander. people hate to have to undergo them, but i don't see where the problem with something as a simple search is, unless you are trying to hide something. the better you cooperate and the less attitude we get, the faster we are done. which usually, we don't take more than 5 minutes of your time anyways. but when talking about security and breaching the sanctaty of someones home, someones privacy, that is whole nother story. that i do not support in anyway, or manner.


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